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Thread: Is This Puzzle Workable?
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2010-04-02, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Is This Puzzle Workable?
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Okay. As a break from the hack/slash fest we've had the last couple of weeks in my Eberron campaign, I'm putting in a Mastermind-style puzzle for my group to chew on. Normally, it's rare for my games to test player knowledge instead of character knowledge this way, but I wanted a change of pace, and something that could engage those players who are a bit less outspoken in the roleplay department. Ideally, this occupies them enjoyably for 15 - 30 minutes. As an aside, the players are between 14 - 18 years old, and there are as many as 14 there any given week.
Unfortunately, I find these puzzles fiendishly difficult to judge independently, because I, as creator, can clearly see the solution. I cannot readily tell if I've given enough information, too much information, or insufficient information to solve the puzzle. For this reason, I come to you good, people of GitP, to read my puzzle and see if it is workable as is, needs more clues, or is laughably easy.
I'm putting the puzzle in a spoiler, below. If you think you have the correct answer, please spoiler that. If there's a problem with too little or too much info, there's no need to use spoilers to tell me I screwed up.
SpoilerBefore you is a sealed door of a brightly polished metal. It is perfectly smooth and shows no handles, buttons, or other opening mechanisms. If checked, it faintly radiates abjuration and conjuration magics. In a small alcove to the left of the door are 8 black iron figurines, each about the height of a small human palm, with labels identifying them stamped in the metal, arranged alphabetically: a buzzard, an eagle, a falcon, a harrier, a hawk, an osprey, an owl, and a vulture. When a light is brought close to the alcove, eight colored circles are visible on the floor in front of it. In left-to-right order, they are: pink, red, purple, violet, orange, blue, green, and yellow. The light catches something glittering on the floor; words, in the Riedran language, have been polished into the stone. The neat, block script says,
"Herein lies the key.
The hawk does not go on the purple or yellow circle.
The falcon goes between the hawk and the eagle.
The osprey and vulture are side by side.
The vulture does not sit on the violet or the green circle.
The eagle sits neither on the blue nor orange circle.
The owl sits beside the vulture, and not on the green circle.
The harrier has only one neighbor and is not by the osprey or the eagle.
The buzzard does not occupy the pink or red circle."
EDIT: multiple solutions were not intended.Last edited by Amphetryon; 2010-04-03 at 06:13 AM.
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2010-04-02, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
While I haven't yet actually tried to solve the puzzle (will do it in a minute), this doesn't seem like it would be too hard, merely being a logic puzzle and not a riddle of some sort.
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2010-04-02, 04:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
It'd probably require drawings and some time, but it seems workable. The problem with puzzles is if there is a single solution that is completely random. A puzzle like this should do fine.
...Anyways, if they're COMPLETELY stumped, they can just "force" the puzzle by trying every possible combination.
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2010-04-02, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
This seems like it could have multiple correct answers. If they find one other than what you think it should be, it will work, right?
also, I got:
Spoilerpink - Harrier
red - Owl
purple - Vulture
violet - Osprey
orange - Hawk
blue - Falcon
green - Eagle
yellow - Buzzard
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2010-04-02, 05:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
Ok; so far I've gotten:
SpoilerEagle:Red; Falcon:Purple; Owl:Orange; Vulture:Blue; and Osprey:Green.
However, the clues don't provide any way to decideor vice versa.Spoilerwhether the harrier goes on the pink and the buzzard on the yellow,
Edit: Looks like this has multiple solutions, or I messed up somehow...Last edited by Elfin; 2010-04-02 at 05:06 PM.
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2010-04-02, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
I got: (seems like two possible answers)
Spoilerpink - Hawk
red - Falcon
purple - Eagle
violet - Osprey
orange - Vulture
blue - Owl
green - Buzzard
yellow - HarrierLast edited by Eldonauran; 2010-04-02 at 05:08 PM.
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2010-04-02, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
Well, looks like I screwed up a bit, then. I intended only one correct answer. OP edited to try to fix that.
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2010-04-02, 05:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
Okay, trying to run the clues through a logic grid, and I've got stuck before finding any definite answers. I haven't placed any of the birds for sure, and I'm pretty sure I've eked all the possible meaning from the clues.
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2010-04-02, 05:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
I did a mastermind puzzle to open a door once, you had so many guesses failure resulted in the guardians being summoned [who granted no xp upon defeat], then the password reset.
I just used the mastermind game on my iphone, each color represented a school of magic from illusion to universal.[for a total of 8] I simply entered the combination's as they spoke them then then told them the results
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2010-04-02, 05:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
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2010-04-02, 05:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-04-02, 05:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
Looking at this puzzle a bit more, you use the exact same colors that are on my Crack the Code game on my calculator.
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2010-04-02, 06:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
I just used standard rainbow colors.
A second edit has been made to eliminate one unintended 'right' solution.
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2010-04-02, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
I don't know how well this type of puzzle will work in a game the size you're thinking about. I used a similar puzzle once with my group of 4 (they had to replicate a magical ritual based on tattered remnants of a spellbook and random laboratory notes). Mine was more complex - it used three elements rather than two, but there were fewer total groupings and I made sure to give more clues than were necessary to specify a unique solution. Even though my group includes three doctoral students in physical chemistry (so pretty good with logical thinking), it still took about 30-45 minutes for them to figure out, in large part because this sort of puzzle does not lend itself well to group solving. The puzzle wound up being a success because the two players not really interested in solving the puzzle got to run around collecting the reagents necessary to complete the ritual, while the two players who were interested raced to see who could get it done first. Otherwise, there would have been a couple of very bored players for that half hour. I could see this problem writ large for a group as massive as yours.
Also, you might want to think about renaming bits of your puzzle for clarity... a harrier is a type of hawk, violet is a shade of purple, and "buzzard" is primarily a colloquialism for any number of raptors, including vultures, hawks, and eagles.
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2010-04-02, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
Here's what I got:
Spoiler
Pink: not buzzard
Red: not harrier, not buzzard
Purple: not harrier
Violet: not vulture, not harrier
Orange: not hawk, not harrier, not eagle
Blue: not eagle, not harrier
Green: not vulture, not owl, not harrier
Yellow: not hawk, not owl, not osprey
owl, vulture, osprey or osprey, vulture owl must be in sequence
hawk, falcon, eagle, or eagle, falcon, hawk must be in sequence
That leaves only harrier and buzzard which can go wherever allowed above
You may want to double check my work, but the same line of logic is still usable. I think you could quickly put together several solutions from what I have above. Or at least 4-8 I think. Try it out. EDIT: I think they'll get it in 5-20 minutes because of this. Which is fine, I suppose. After all this is Dungeons and Dragons not Puzzles and Pencils. Varying things can be fun but changing a large part of a gaming session into a $3 puzzle book session is less fun.
EDIT #2: Adjusted for non-eagle orange-ness. Which removes maybe 1 possibility.Last edited by ericgrau; 2010-04-02 at 10:25 PM.
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2010-04-02, 06:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
Did you intend to tell us that the eagle is not on blue twice? That might have been a typo that could help reduce the number of solutions.
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2010-04-02, 07:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
For the first part: A group this size has the risk of bored players regardless of the scenario, including combat. The number of players involved makes combat take longer than usual and plays havoc with challenge ratings, and RP interactions will almost per force exclude at least a couple of people. As indicated, I'm adding this in as a change of pace, hoping to get those who are not as gungho for combat more involved in the game for at least this little bit. If you have a solution that doesn't involve combat, RP, or puzzles that can involve everyone - since those all run into boredom potential - please, share.
For the second part: Violet and purple are distinct colors within the spectrum, according to the art professor at college and the art students in the group, so they should have no difficulties there. Similarly, the birds of prey were selected specifically as distinct varieties. Naturally, some colloquialisms can alter specific meanings within some communities, but that's going to be the case with any group of 8 birds of prey represented only by general, non scientific, species differentiation. Using the scientific Latin terms is, for me and this group, an unnecessary intrusion of the 'real world' into the verisimilitude of the game. If you are aware of 8 separate and distinct birds of prey that are specific to Eberron, please let me know which pages to search so I can make this more exacting.
EDIT: Fixed fixed the the redundant redundant listing listing.Last edited by Amphetryon; 2010-04-02 at 07:03 PM.
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2010-04-02, 07:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
Of course, my answer was "Ancient Mountain Hammer on the door." Since such tools exist, a door alone is really not a good obstacle. More useful would be if the solution to this puzzle revealed some specific necessary information, such as which of the treasures is actually the necessary artifact or something.
JaronK
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2010-04-02, 07:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
I wrote a program to brute force all solutions, and found 17 for the first example. With the edit, it only finds these 12.
I'm afraid you need more conditions to only allow one option.
Spoiler
These solutions are for this version of the problem
Spoiler
The hawk does not go on the orange or yellow circle.
The falcon goes between the hawk and the eagle.
The osprey and vulture are side by side.
The vulture does not sit on the violet or the green circle.
The eagle sits neither on the blue nor orange circle.
The owl sits beside the vulture, and not on the green circle.
The harrier has only one neighbor.
The buzzard does not occupy the pink or red circle."
Solution 1:
Eagle on Pink
Falcon on Red
Hawk on Purple
Buzzard on Violet
Owl on Orange
Vulture on Blue
Osprey on Green
Harrier on Yellow
Solution 2:
Eagle on Pink
Falcon on Red
Hawk on Purple
Osprey on Violet
Vulture on Orange
Owl on Blue
Buzzard on Green
Harrier on Yellow
Solution 3:
Eagle on Pink
Falcon on Red
Hawk on Purple
Owl on Violet
Vulture on Orange
Osprey on Blue
Buzzard on Green
Harrier on Yellow
Solution 4:
Harrier on Pink
Eagle on Red
Falcon on Purple
Hawk on Violet
Owl on Orange
Vulture on Blue
Osprey on Green
Buzzard on Yellow
Solution 5:
Harrier on Pink
Hawk on Red
Falcon on Purple
Eagle on Violet
Owl on Orange
Vulture on Blue
Osprey on Green
Buzzard on Yellow
Solution 6:
Harrier on Pink
Osprey on Red
Vulture on Purple
Owl on Violet
Buzzard on Orange
Hawk on Blue
Falcon on Green
Eagle on Yellow
Solution 7:
Harrier on Pink
Owl on Red
Vulture on Purple
Osprey on Violet
Buzzard on Orange
Hawk on Blue
Falcon on Green
Eagle on Yellow
Solution 8:
Hawk on Pink
Falcon on Red
Eagle on Purple
Buzzard on Violet
Owl on Orange
Vulture on Blue
Osprey on Green
Harrier on Yellow
Solution 9:
Hawk on Pink
Falcon on Red
Eagle on Purple
Osprey on Violet
Vulture on Orange
Owl on Blue
Buzzard on Green
Harrier on Yellow
Solution 10:
Hawk on Pink
Falcon on Red
Eagle on Purple
Owl on Violet
Vulture on Orange
Osprey on Blue
Buzzard on Green
Harrier on Yellow
Solution 11:
Osprey on Pink
Vulture on Red
Owl on Purple
Eagle on Violet
Falcon on Orange
Hawk on Blue
Buzzard on Green
Harrier on Yellow
Solution 12:
Owl on Pink
Vulture on Red
Osprey on Purple
Eagle on Violet
Falcon on Orange
Hawk on Blue
Buzzard on Green
Harrier on Yellow
Edit: Adding one or more restrictions that force harrier to go on Pink reduces the number of solutions to 4 though (Solutions 4 to 7).
Edit2: And I might have some errors in my code, only checked that a few of them actually worked myself
Last edited by Accersitus; 2010-04-02 at 07:28 PM.
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2010-04-02, 07:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-04-02, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
I have no doubt you can pull this 7th level maneuver off at 2nd level, JaronK, but could you please explain how it's done?
Not every group chooses to simply bypass the puzzles as their first response, would be my second thought. I never said whether the puzzle was relevant to the adventure's overall plot, because that information isn't actually needed to figure out the puzzle itself. It is, by the way. The thread is for trying to boil the puzzle down into a single viable solution to the puzzle - rather than a solution avoiding it.
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2010-04-02, 07:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
For starters, "the eagle sits on neither the blue nor blue circle" is redundant.
In the puzzle's current incarnation, there are many possible solutions. The base specifications are:
1. Harrier on an end;
2. Hawk-Falcon-Eagle, or vice versa;
3. Owl-Vulture-Osprey, or vice versa.
So, we have four 'pieces' to arrange: the harrier, the falcon group, the vulture group, and the buzzard. The total number of combinations before color rulings is 48: 24 possible orderings of four pieces, minus 12 where the harrier is not on the end, times four because two of the pieces have two possible internal orientations. Our job is to eliminate 47 of those, either with color rulings or by further restricting the order.
As is, here are the solutions that come to mind:
Spoiler{table=head] Solutions|Pink|Red|Purple|Violet|Orange|Blue|Green|Yellow
1|Hawk|Falcon|Eagle|Buzzard|Owl|Vulture|Osprey|Har rier
2|Eagle|Falcon|Hawk|Buzzard|Owl|Vulture|Osprey|Har rier
3|Owl|Vulture|Osprey|Buzzard|Eagle|Falcon|Hawk|Har rier
4|Osprey|Vulture|Owl|Buzzard|Eagle|Falcon|Hawk|Har rier
5|Owl|Vulture|Osprey|Eagle|Falcon|Hawk|Buzzard|Har rier
6|Osprey|Vulture|Owl|Eagle|Falcon|Hawk|Buzzard|Har rier
7|Harrier|Osprey|Vulture|Owl|Buzzard|Hawk|Falcon|E agle
8|Harrier|Owl|Vulture|Osprey|Buzzard|Hawk|Falcon|E agle
9|Harrier|Owl|Vulture|Osprey|Eagle|Falcon|Hawk|Buz zard
10|Harrier|Osprey|Vulture|Owl|Eagle|Falcon|Hawk|Bu zzard[/table]
Hopefully that's a comprehensive list, and I didn't screw anything up. Now, to narrow it down, we start striking things off. Most of the solutions come from the flexibility of the owl-vulture-osprey group, so let's say "the owl sits to the right of the vulture, and not on the green circle" instead of what we had before. Let's revise the table--red solutions are dead, blue are live.
Spoiler{table=head] Solutions|Pink|Red|Purple|Violet|Orange|Blue|Green|Yellow
1|Hawk|Falcon|Eagle|Buzzard|Owl|Vulture|Osprey|Harrier
2|Eagle|Falcon|Hawk|Buzzard|Owl|Vulture|Osprey|Harrier
3|Owl|Vulture|Osprey|Buzzard|Eagle|Falcon|Hawk|Harrier
4|Osprey|Vulture|Owl|Buzzard|Eagle|Falcon|Hawk|Harrier
5|Owl|Vulture|Osprey|Eagle|Falcon|Hawk|Buzzard|Harrier
6|Osprey|Vulture|Owl|Eagle|Falcon|Hawk|Buzzard|Harrier
7|Harrier|Osprey|Vulture|Owl|Buzzard|Hawk|Falcon|Eagle
8|Harrier|Owl|Vulture|Osprey|Buzzard|Hawk|Falcon|Eagle
9|Harrier|Owl|Vulture|Osprey|Eagle|Falcon|Hawk|Buzzard
10|Harrier|Osprey|Vulture|Owl|Eagle|Falcon|Hawk|Buzzard[/table]
Four left. The eagle, falcon, and osprey are all pretty free from color-based restraints; add two, maybe all three, and you can easily pick whichever arrangement you like. Myself, I like solution #7 the best, so I'd restrict the eagle from purple (cuts out #6), the falcon from blue (cuts #10 and #4), and the osprey from pink (cuts out #4). Slightly redundant, but it gets the job done.
So, the revised key would read:
Spoiler"Herein lies the key.
The hawk does not go on the orange or yellow circle.
The falcon sits between the hawk and the eagle, and avoids the blue circle.
The osprey and vulture are side by side; neither holds the pink circle.
The vulture does not sit on the violet or the green circle.
The eagle sits neither on the purple nor blue circle.
The owl sits at the vulture's right hand, and not on the green circle.
The harrier has only one neighbor.
The buzzard does not occupy the pink or red circle."
And the final arrangement would be:
SpoilerHarrier|Osprey|Vulture|Owl|Buzzard|Hawk|Falcon|Eag le
Whew! Wall of text much. Logic puzzles fascinate me; blame that.
EDIT: Oops, it appears I missed a spot or two.Last edited by Math_Mage; 2010-04-02 at 07:43 PM.
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2010-04-02, 07:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
The puzzles I've found work best are those in which you can get everyone, or in your case, small groups, working on something at the same time, in and out of game. Puzzles mixed with combat, puzzles that involve incremental realizations, and puzzles that are directly tied to plot points tend to work best for me. That, of course, is for a much smaller group. In your situation, you could try making a whole slew of smaller puzzles, each of which gives a clue necessary for the solving of a larger puzzle, which allows access (or whatever). That way everyone can work on something in parallel.
For a solid example, in this case you could double the number of clues on this puzzle so it's trivial once they get all the clues, and solvable with about half of them. Then put each one of them into a different letter substitution code. The players could figure out the code individually, then as they figure out their pieces of the puzzle, start working on the bigger problem. That way everyone has something to be doing at all times, and it's still constructive.
For the colors, if it works for your group, that's great. For raptors, how about: merlin, kestrel, goshawk, osprey, owl, vulture, gyrfalcon, and harrier? Gives it a nice dark-ages falconry feel. Bonus points if you replace the colors with the actual titles allowed to use various raptors to hunt!
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2010-04-02, 07:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
Btw, I just timed myself solving this (without looking further down the thread). Got 1 solution in 5mins, so its easily possible without too much frustration.
Problem is, I got another solution not ten seconds afterwards. So your players will spot that there is more than one answer.
What you can do is take one of the ones above that constrain the problem further. Say, Math_Mage's.
Then have it be clear that the tablet continues with the extra lines needed so those players who don't want to solve the puzzle can go find the extra lines.
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2010-04-02, 07:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
I modified my program, and with that configuration there are still 2 solutions, the 2nd being the one you provided:
Spoiler
Solution 1:
Eagle on Pink
Falcon on Red
Hawk on Purple
Osprey on Violet
Vulture on Orange
Owl on Blue
Buzzard on Green
Harrier on Yellow
Solution 2:
Harrier on Pink
Osprey on Red
Vulture on Purple
Owl on Violet
Buzzard on Orange
Hawk on Blue
Falcon on Green
Eagle on Yellow
Nice job eliminating all those solutions by hand btw :D
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2010-04-02, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
For starters, "the eagle sits on neither the blue nor blue circle" is redundant.
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2010-04-02, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
my answer
Spoiler
from left to right: Hawk, Falcon, Eagle, Buzzard, Owl, Vulture, Osprey, Harrier.
only took a few minutes, a pencil and an old bus pass to write on. after looking at the other answers, seems like this is an answers others have found. not too hard of a puzzle.
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2010-04-02, 08:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-04-02, 08:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
I've narrowed it down to two solutions, however realize that this sort of puzzle will have to be written out to be solved. That may work for some groups, but my players probably would not go to all that trouble.
Anyway, here's what I got:
SpoilerPink = Harrier
Red = Owl or Osprey
Purple = Vulture
Violet = Osprey or Owl
Orange = Buzzard
Blue = Hawk
Green = Falcon
Yellow = Eagle
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2010-04-02, 08:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is This Puzzle Workable?
I made another edit to reduce wrong right answers.