should a paladin fall for participating in a drinking contest?

[taltamir]

I recall some very good arguments from this forum about paladin alignment restrictions.

In the temple of elemental evil game there is a drinking contest, if the party has a paladin and anyone in the party participates in a drinking contest the paladin falls.
There is now a debate on the circle of 8 mod community on whether to change this and how... it seems that most agree that if the paladin himself isn't drinking its ok, but many say that if the paladin himself does the drinking he should fall, opinions seem split about half and half to me.

So, can anyone give good ideas (especially if based in RAW) on why this should or shouldn't be the case?

here is the thread for the modding community in CO8. (note, this is relevant because co8 publishes an extensive mod that takes TOEE from unplayable to a rather polished game. To the point where atari themselves recommend it; or at least, used to, now its not listed on the atari website anymore).
here is the CO8 thread: http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7956

[Geiger Counter]

There is absolutely nothing in the paladins code of conduct that would punish the paladin if he or any of his allies consumed any fermented beverage. Unless he has taken a vow of sobriety or worships a god of sobriety.

/thread

[comicshorse]

How about he shouldn't fall because that would just be stupid
I mean seriously what god is that petty

[taltamir]

where is the paladin code published?

[Temotei]

If the context of the drinking contest ends with the paladin being able to do more good, then it's fine. If there's an equally able party member, it probably counts as a mark against the paladin, but I don't think drinking a liquid is enough to cause a paladin to lose all of their class features.

How about he shouldn't fall because that would just be stupid
I mean seriously what god is that petty

Ho ho! Look into Greek mythological stories.

[Soranar]

Paladins are rolemodels. Drinking itself is not a problem, drinking to the point of drunkenness by accident is , again, forgivable.

However knowingly drinking yourself to oblivion, that's clearly chaotic behavior and I agree it warrants a fall.

If you want to be a paladin drunkard , play a paladin of freedom and worship Cayden Cailean.

[gallagher]

if drinking were to cause a paladin to fall, there would be no dwarven paladins.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Code of Conduct

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

The ONLY possible (and still rather dumb) ways to argue that the Paladin falls is if strong drink is considered a (weak) poison and/or the game itself involves committing evil acts. If the drinking itself is considered the evil act, you are playing the wrong game.

[comicshorse]

Posted by Temotei221

Ho ho! Look into Greek mythological stories.

The greek gods would probably make you fall for NOT getting drunl

[deuxhero]

if drinking were to cause a paladin to fall, there would be no dwarven paladins.

There are Dwarf Paladins? I know a lot of Dwarf Clerics and a lot of Dwarf Fighters, but never heard of any Dwarf Paladins.

[taltamir]

There is absolutely nothing in the paladins code of conduct that would punish the paladin if he or any of his allies consumed any fermented beverage. Unless he has taken a vow of sobriety or worships a god of sobriety.

/thread

this is a pretty solid argument because co8 tries to stick to the RAW... I was not aware that WOTC actually published a paladin code. in which book can I find it so I can cite it there?

[Lycan 01]

Yeah, I disagree with the paladin falling for his friends taking part in a drinking contest. I could see it being a problem if the Paladin does the drinking contest and gets drunk, since that can lead to plennnnnty of bad situations.

So yeah. Paladin's party in drinking contest? No fall. Especially if he keeps them under control after they get smashed. Paladin taking part in the contest? Maybe a fall, depending on his deity, if he gets willingly drunk (he might be or believe himself to be resistant enough to alcohol not to get drunk), and his actions while drunk. Paladin enjoying a few drinks but not getting drunk? No fall.

[Ranos]

I've seen DMs shoehorning paladins into falling but...wow.
Edit : Oh, this is a video game. Nevermind then. But yeah, you've got a solid argument.

this is a pretty solid argument because co8 tries to stick to the RAW... I was not aware that WOTC actually published a paladin code. in which book can I find it so I can cite it there?

Well...the Paladin class description.

[oxybe]

Posted by Temotei221


The greek gods would probably make you fall for NOT getting drunl

i'm pretty sure a paladin of bacchus would gain a level and a nice basket of fruit for doing so...

[taltamir]

Well...the Paladin class description.

I don't see anything in the srd about it:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm

But I did see something that greatly concerns me...

Associates
While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

A paladin may only have lawful good cohorts? That means any party that has a paladin must be made entirely of lawful good people (as verified by detect evil and detect chaos spells that the paladin gets). By RAW.

EDIT:
when you said code did you mean:

Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

because this seems to be rather incomplete, even including "and so forth"...

[Jack_Simth]

The ONLY possible (and still rather dumb) ways to argue that the Paladin falls is if strong drink is considered a (weak) poison and/or the game itself involves committing evil acts. If the drinking itself is considered the evil act, you are playing the wrong game.

It could theoretically be argued that getting drunk is a chaotic act... but even then, one chaotic act does not make for a chaotic (or even necessarily neutral) person, so... yeah, pretty much.

In willingly getting drunk, you can definitely hold him accountable for mistakes made while drunk, but that's not part of the drinking contest itself.

I don't see anything in the srd about it:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm

But I did see something that greatly concerns me...


A paladin may only have lawful good cohorts? That means any party that has a paladin must be made entirely of lawful good people (as verified by detect evil and detect chaos spells that the paladin gets). By RAW.

Chohort is a game-defined term; see the Leadership feat. Fellow players don't qualify as Cohorts.

[Soranar]

you forget that not all deities allow paladins

I don't see how Bacchus (if someone is chaotic in that pantheon, he is) would allow lawful "stick up his ... " worshippers

[Tiki Snakes]

I don't see anything in the srd about it:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm

But I did see something that greatly concerns me...


A paladin may only have lawful good cohorts? That means any party that has a paladin must be made entirely of lawful good people (as verified by detect evil and detect chaos spells that the paladin gets). By RAW.

As-in the Leadership Feat, cheif.

Also, I think the SRD has lots of bits of Fluff trimmed away, or I recall hearing such.

[comicshorse]

Posted by Taltamir

I don't see anything in the srd about it:

It's in the CODE OF CONDUCT section
EDIT
Damn already irrelevent

[Ranos]

I don't see anything in the srd about it:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm

You must have missed it.

Code of Conduct

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

A paladin may only have lawful good cohorts? That means any party that has a paladin must be made entirely of lawful good people (as verified by detect evil and detect chaos spells that the paladin gets). By RAW.

Cohorts != party members. Cohorts are your underlings, you get them through leadership and the like. Party members are your equals.

Edit : Ninja'd by just about everyone else. Damn my reaction time.

[taltamir]

you forget that not all deities allow paladins

I don't see how Bacchus (if someone is chaotic in that pantheon, he is) would allow lawful "stick up his ... " worshippers

Well, they allow "worshipers". but each deity has a specific list of alignments allowed to its clerics (and AFAIK paladins too). Generally it is only 1 step away, in each direction (aka, LG god allows LG, NG, or LN)... but sometimes they allow a little more (such as a LG god allowing LG, NG, LN, or TN)

[taltamir]

It could theoretically be argued that getting drunk is a chaotic act... but even then, one chaotic act does not make for a chaotic (or even necessarily neutral) person, so... yeah, pretty much.

the COC does say that a paladin insta falls if he commits any one EVIL act. but does not say the same about chaotic acts.

However, some have argued that alcohol is evil... and it is certainly a poison (which by DnD RAW is [evil])

[Mastikator]

Naaaah, as long as the paladin isn't like, stealing anything I don't think he should fall.
But he should be looked down upon by his peers for irresponsible behavior.

Edit- poison is only evil in the context of using it on other people. Poisoning yourself is not evil.

[comicshorse]

" No Mr Paladin, I'm not evil I just had a couple of whiskeys earlier, that must be what you are picking up"

[Ranos]

However, some have argued that alcohol is evil... and it is certainly a poison (which by DnD RAW is [evil])

Is it ? I don't see any alcohol in the poison tables.

[Tiki Snakes]

Does Alcohol even have any effect, by Core-RAW?

[taltamir]

Is it ? I don't see any alcohol in the poison tables.

oh snap... so true.
Alcohol is a poison by IRL medical definition.. but in DnD there are poisons, venoms, toxins, etc and if its not classified as any of those then it isn't any... So by RAW alcohol isn't a poison even if it is IRL.

[krossbow]

Alcohol does NOT equal evil. In the players handbook or the book of exalted deeds i've seen nothing showing that a paladin is prohibited from doing so. Heck, IRL religions, JESUS CHRIST drank alcohol.


Alcohol consumption is seen as evil simply due to the evils that its excess (which would fall under the purview of engaging in gluttony) can cause being prominent in people's minds.
Unless your consumption of alcohol clearly would lead to you being unable to perform your duties, or another issue, it shouldn't be seen as an evil act. As an example: Drinking on your day off: good. Drinking on guard duty: bad.

[Setra]

Does Ale have [Evil] next to it?

SMITE IT WITH YOUR TONGUE

[taltamir]

Does Alcohol even have any effect, by Core-RAW?

you can get a predisposition to use it as party of a depression disorder and a few other disorders which you can acquire via insanity.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm