[3.5] Sundering when there are no magic weapons

[Myou]

In my current campaign we use innate magical bonues intead of magic items, so enemies don't drop gear as loot. This has brought up a problem - there's no incentive to take items whole, so when my player decided to take improved sunder it highlighted a problem - with a simple opposed attack roll (with a +4 bonus) he can render any melee character who doesn't have a backup weapon useless.

Is there something we missed or is this really going to mess up the game (since every fighter type would suddenly be insane not to carry about 5 swords). What can I do about this (other than using more monsters, etc)?

[jokey665]

Improved Grapple

[Runestar]

You could give them natural attacks or improved unarmed strike + superior unarmed strike so they can still do decent damage without a weapon (but not as much, so your fighter still gets a benefit from sundering their weapon).

[Myou]

Improved Grapple

So you want me to give every melee-type foe improved grapple just so they can lose grapple checks against an enlarged warforged? Seems like a bad tactic.

[Eurus]

My question is, who doesn't carry a backup weapon? When you don't have to worry about ludicrously expensive magic weapons, it makes sense to carry a couple of knives at the very least.

[Myou]

You could give them natural attacks or improved unarmed strike + superior unarmed strike so they can still do decent damage without a weapon (but not as much, so your fighter still gets a benefit from sundering their weapon).

That's a nice idea for some of them, although it would get a little stupid if they all had those.

My question is, who doesn't carry a backup weapon? When you don't have to worry about ludicrously expensive magic weapons, it makes sense to carry a couple of knives at the very least.

You carry a backup weapon, draw it, make one attack, then it gets sundered too.

[Runestar]

That's a nice idea for some of them, although it would get a little stupid if they all had those.

Even simply gauntlets would work.

How frequently do humanoid foes pop up in your game anyways? You could try to make them more resilient to sunder.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

So after two or more rounds with good rolls, Mr. Warforged can make one opponent with standard melee weapons ineffective, instead of actually doing damage. It sounds like an interesting tactic, but I doubt it's going to break your game. Throw a large number of foes at him, or archers that are hard to get to, or flying creatures, or any creature with natural attacks, or spellcasters with Eschew Material Components or about 10 spell component pouches/holy symbols/what have you.

[Myou]

Even simply gauntlets would work.

How frequently do humanoid foes pop up in your game anyways? You could try to make them more resilient to sunder.

That works too. :o

I prefer premade monsters, but end up using a lot of weapon-users anyway.
Maybe only 25% of fights, but a tactic that only works 25% of the time, but totally messes up verisimilitude and is owerpowered in that instance is a problem.

Gah, I shouldn't do this stuff at 2 am after a 10 hour session.

[Myou]

So after two or more rounds with good rolls, Mr. Warforged can make one opponent with standard melee weapons ineffective, instead of actually doing damage. It sounds like an interesting tactic, but I doubt it's going to break your game. Throw a large number of foes at him, or archers that are hard to get to, or flying creatures, or any creature with natural attacks, or spellcasters with Eschew Material Components or about 10 spell component pouches/holy symbols/what have you.

Sunder is a single attack, so you can make a sunder attempt a part of a full attack, and with that +4 bonus you're likely to succeed. Like I said not using that sort of foe doesn't fix the problem at all.
Still, maybe it's not as bad as it looks.

[ericgrau]

In my current campaign we use innate magical bonues intead of magic items, so enemies don't drop gear as loot. This has brought up a problem - there's no incentive to take items whole, so when my player decided to take improved sunder it highlighted a problem - with a simple opposed attack roll (with a +4 bonus) he can render any melee character who doesn't have a backup weapon useless.

Is there something we missed or is this really going to mess up the game (since every fighter type would suddenly be insane not to carry about 5 swords). What can I do about this (other than using more monsters, etc)?

Enhancement bonuses give +10 HP and +2 hardness per +1 enhancement bonus. This may increase the number of rounds it takes to sunder a weapon if you allow innate bonuses to apply. A backup weapon is another obvious answer, as are adamantine weapons. If you don't allow special metals, you may want to make the equivalent an innate option. You can also send in some enemies without weapons. Just a few for variety not a bunch purely to mess with your players. That'd be bad form.

After that it's get much better than disarm, or sunder under normal rules. IMO weapons are only 1 part of treasure so the drawback of normal rules sundering is exaggerated, especially once you consider the tremendous advantage of quickly taking a foe out of the fight. Combine that with the option to simply not do it on easy fights to save loot, while saving the party's lives on hard fights, and it really is an underrated ability even under normal rules.

[krossbow]

If your sundering weapons, your basically spending your time keeping them useless instead of killing them.

Superior numbers helps here. If your foes outnumber you, you won't have time to sunder everything while they're attacking you.



Additionally, IRL, it was VERY common to carry a backup weapon. Losing your weapon or such would have this very same issue come up, so anyone with enough money to purchase armor would have a smaller side weapon as well.

[Eurus]

...Huh. Just read the sunder rules, which I'm not entirely clear on since I rarely see them used, and I've got to ask; why is it easier to sunder a dagger than a longsword? I mean, yes, the longsword is more durable - as represented by it having more hit points - but the very idea of Mr. Greatsword managing to cut a tiny dagger in half is ridiculous.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Sunder is a single attack, so you can make a sunder attempt a part of a full attack, and with that +4 bonus you're likely to succeed. Like I said not using that sort of foe doesn't fix the problem at all.
Still, maybe it's not as bad as it looks.

What kind of foe are you talking about, exactly? The way I see it, by the level you appear to be playing at, melee foes are generally either guards to a more threatening combatant, or they comprise a lesser encounter where it might be okay to let the good guys win with ease. If it's one awesome martial character, he probably has his own natural enhancement bonus and the like and could sunder Mr. Warforged's weapons instead.

Ericgrau: Adamantine weapons work once.

[ericgrau]

With 20 hardness they're unlikely to break at all, and since they have at least 20 hardness they do not sunder eachother easily. If you allow HP and AC from innate enhancement bonuses then they're even more resilient. As treasure it discourages being sundered just as much as it discourages PCs from buying them.

[herrhauptmann]

...Huh. Just read the sunder rules, which I'm not entirely clear on since I rarely see them used, and I've got to ask; why is it easier to sunder a dagger than a longsword? I mean, yes, the longsword is more durable - as represented by it having more hit points - but the very idea of Mr. Greatsword managing to cut a tiny dagger in half is ridiculous.

Well a 'dagger' is probably a good foot and a half long. Something smaller is a knife you eat with. So it's not like you're trying to sunder someone's pocketknife.

I think the abuse hasn't really started yet.
It'll get to be a problem when the player takes combat brute (sundering cleave). He sunders a weapon, and gets a free attack, at same bonuses, against the wielder.
There's another feat, Deadly Concussion which makes it even worse.
-Charge the enemy, attempt to sunder. They're sure to destroy the weapon in one hit.
-Deadly concussion means the enemy takes equal damage to what the item did.
-Combat Brute's Sundering Cleave means that if you destroy the weapon, you get a free melee attack on wielder with all the same bonuses. (I read that to include the +4 for sunder)
-Next round, Power Attack for 5 or more. You get a x1.5 boost for 1 handed weapons, and a x3 boost for 2 handers.
Full attack.

What weapon does the character use? Probably some sort of sword I'd guess. If he switches to a bludgeoning weapon(concussion strike), become worried.

[PhoenixRivers]

Advice: Quid pro quo. Attack their weapons too. One solid Orb of Sonic should take just about any weapon out of the picture.

Also, charges are fragile. They have all sorts of rules they must follow. Readied actions destroy them, as does difficult terrain, tripping, grappling, and terrain shaping.

Sundering is vulnerable to disarm, trip, or any tactic to keep an enemy at range.

[Keld Denar]

Especially since you are using inherant bonuses, most foes should be toting a couple weapons at least. If you've ever read any Terry Goodkind, most of the warriors in his books like Chase or any D'Haran soldier carry at least 4+ weapons. This also adds advantage to the Quickdraw feat, a normally rather crappy feat.

I like it. It kinda adds a grittier feel to melee combat where weapons did break often and switching weapons is something a seasoned warrior would know how to do or face the consequences.

[Optimystik]

Binders get Improved Sunder at 1st level (Aym.) They also deal double damage to objects - naturally, that includes weapons/shields.

"Pinky... are you pondering what I'm pondering?"

[Myou]

Thanks for a lot of great advice, everyone, loads of great ideas - I'm confident we won't have a problem now.

ericgrau: Yes, innate bonuses do apply to weapon properties, and great idea to combat adamantine with adamantine - I guess for just a few thousand, it makes sense to carry a stronger weapon like that.

GoodbyeSoberDay: We use lots of ToB so actually, melee characters are pretty good main foes.

herrhauptmann: He uses an adamantine scythe. :3

PhoenixRivers: Ooooh, he would not like that. xD

Keld Denar: Several more good points.

[2xMachina]

Monks

Soulknives.

[Myou]

Monks

I think you mean swordsages.

[PhoenixRivers]

Another thing that limits charges:

Visibility: You must see your target at the beginning of your action to charge.

So, level 1 Obscuring Mist will neuter chargers, most of the time.

[ericgrau]

Advice: Quid pro quo. Attack their weapons too. One solid Orb of Sonic should take just about any weapon out of the picture.

1. You must sunder with a melee slashing or bludgeoning weapon.
2. In spite of the annoyingly ambiguous wording, hardness still applies to sonic and acid attacks. See rules compendium and probably other answers. "Deal damage normally" means like a weapon: do not half or quarter, simply full amount minus hardness. At low levels an adamantine weapon would survive, and thanks to innate enhancement bonuses they'd still survive at high levels. In either case it would take about 2 hits.
3. You're only asking the PCs to switch from adamantine weapons to their own orbs of sonic if you disregard #1 & #2.

[PhoenixRivers]

2. In spite of the annoyingly ambiguous wording, hardness still applies to sonic and acid attacks. See rules compendium and probably other answers. "Deal damage normally" means like a weapon: do not half or quarter, simply full amount minus hardness. At low levels an adamantine weapon would survive, and thanks to innate enhancement bonuses they'd still survive at high levels. In either case it would take about 2 hits.

Energy Attacks: Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit.

Q. What do creatures have in common?
A. No hardness.

This is further underscored by the fact that all other energy types instruct you to apply hardness. Acid and sonic do not. What do we do when the game doesn't instruct use to apply it to one thing, and it does instruct us to apply it to something else?

Not to mention that the DM is allowed, per that section, to rule attacks particularly effective, and ignore Hardness. If this is about a DM, looking to mitigate a player tactic (which it is), that's a valid way to do it.

You're right, it is ambiguous. It's open to having several meanings or interpretations. So what you're saying is: Yeah, I know there are a lot of valid ways that can be interpreted, but mine's right. Trust me. Mmhmm. Definately. All the other valid ways to interpret it are wrong.

[Riffington]

totally messes up verisimilitude

How does it do that?
I mean, that was basically the whole point of a greatsword: to sunder shields/polearms/etc.