Items that Grant Feats?

[DegenPaladin]

Do items that grant feats, such as the Mobility property of armor (MIC 113) count as a prerequisite? To continue the above example could a rogue that had Dodge, and wore the armor take spring attack?

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, and yes. The caution is that if you lose the item, you can't use the feat.

[cheezewizz2000]

I would say yes, but he loses the benefit of both feats if he ever removes the armour. Same goes for qualifying for prestige classes, in that he would lose the class features granted by that prestige class (excluding saves, HD and BAB, but including all ex., sp., and su. abilities, bonus feats and spellcasting).

[herbe]

I would say yes, but he loses the benefit of both feats if he ever removes the armour. Same goes for qualifying for prestige classes, in that he would lose the class features granted by that prestige class (excluding saves, HD and BAB, but including all ex., sp., and su. abilities, bonus feats and spellcasting).

Thats why as far as i know that it isnt allowed..

[2xMachina]

I'd say you keep your PrC features.

Else, Schrodinger Dragon Disciple.

[sonofzeal]

I'd say you keep your PrC features.

Else, Schrodinger Dragon Disciple.

It's very obvious from the phrasing of the relevant rules that you're intended to lose access. Dragon Disciple is an oft-cited counterexample, but honestly that'd be entirely in line with WotC standards. There's plenty of other stuff out there that, RAW, doesn't do what WotC thought it does (say, Iron Heart Surge not being effective against most things you'd want it for).

The question to me is: does allowing PrC features to be kept help or hurt the game? And I'd say it hurts it in general, it becomes far too easy to access certain things (Fochlucan Lyrist, for example) that really shouldn't work that way. It becomes a rampantly abusable loophole in almost all possible situations where it might come up. You could take dummy feats to enter an awesome PrC, then retrain those feats to completely negate the cost of entry. You could use Heroism or similar effects to gain temporary bonus feats, and enter PrCs that way too.

No. You lose access when you no longer qualify, and that's RAW. I seriously can't condone departing from RAW in a way that opens up brand new exploits, merely to resolve one contradictory case that's clearly handled by RAI already. I'd obvious what's supposed to happen for Dragon Disciple, and it's obvious that you're intended to lose access to other PrCs if you cease to qualify. I see no reason whatsoever to mess with that.

[Curmudgeon]

No. You lose access when you no longer qualify, and that's RAW.

You're right -- but only for those prestige classes in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane, which have local rules to that effect. The primary source for how prestige classes work is the Dungeon Master's Guide (which includes Dragon Disciple, a PrC that could not exist with such a rule). WotC's Primary Sources rule specifies that in any dispute with a primary source, the Primary Source is always right.

This chapter presents a host of prestige classes geared toward combat and martial themes.
...
Most of these classes have combat-oriented requirements. The fastest way into each of them usually involves picking up one or more levels in the fighter, paladin, ranger, barbarian, or monk class. More than a few have requirements that can most easily be met by dabbling in a few other classes, too—rogue levels often make skill requirements easier to meet, and spellcasting requirements are usually met by picking up a few levels in the wizard, sorcerer, druid, or cleric class.
...
If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class.

The Complete Warrior rule specifically is referring to the martial prestige classes in that book. By the Primary Sources rule, it can't do otherwise.

The different rule in Complete Arcane (in which requirement failure leads to loss of class special abilities but not Spells per Day/Spells Known) also has local scope, and affects only the prestige classes in that book. All other prestige classes continue to provide full class benefits, even if you drop below an entry requirement through ability damage or some other means.

There's no mechanism for regaining what you've lost in either rule. If your INT ever gets damaged below 13 you can never again use any class abilities from Dervish, Kensai, or War Chanter. If you ever fail to be able to cast at least one summoning spell of 3rd level or higher you forever lose all special abilities of the Alienist class. If you can't at all times cast five spells with the force descriptor you lose all force abilities of the Argent Savant PrC. That's RAW.

[sonofzeal]

You're right -- but only for those prestige classes in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane, which have local rules to that effect. The primary source for how prestige classes work is the Dungeon Master's Guide (which includes Dragon Disciple, a PrC that could not exist with such a rule). WotC's Primary Sources rule specifies that in any dispute with a primary source, the Primary Source is always right. The Complete Warrior rule specifically is referring to the martial prestige classes in that book. By the Primary Sources rule, it can't do otherwise.

The different rule in Complete Arcane (in which requirement failure leads to loss of class special abilities but not Spells per Day/Spells Known) also has local scope, and affects only the prestige classes in that book. All other prestige classes continue to provide full class benefits, even if you drop below an entry requirement through ability damage or some other means.

There's no mechanism for regaining what you've lost in either rule. If your INT ever gets damaged below 13 you can never again use any class abilities from Dervish, Kensai, or War Chanter. If you ever fail to be able to cast at least one summoning spell of 3rd level or higher you forever lose all special abilities of the Alienist class. If you can't at all times cast five spells with the force descriptor you lose all force abilities of the Argent Savant PrC. That's RAW.

Er, you quoted it but seem to have actually missed it.

"If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class."

Not "a prestige class from this book". Not "a prestige classes geared toward combat and martial themes". Not "only some prestige classes". No, what it says is that if you no longer meet the requirements for a prestige class, you lose it. RAW - Rules As Written - that means any prestige class. The literal meaning is any prestige class.

[Curmudgeon]

Er, you quoted it but seem to have actually missed it.

"If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class."

Not "a prestige class from this book".

I quoted the context in which that rule exists, in a chapter of martial prestige classes. Here's why this rule can't have global scope:

Errata Rule: Primary Sources

When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.

As I previously pointed out, the Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for how prestige classes work. Here's its basic rule for PrC requirements:

If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class.

The DMG contains no rule about continuing to maintain entry requirements. All requirements there are stated in this form:

Requirements: To qualify to become an XXXX, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

The DMG also contains the Dragon Disciple, which cannot exist with such a rule. This creates a disagreement with the Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane rules. This disagreement must be decided by following the DMG rule, because that's the correct one. So these rules can exist in their local contexts, where they supplement but don't disagree with the DMG, or they can't exist at all. That's RAW, too.

You've got to follow all the rules.

[sonofzeal]

There's no disagreement. DMG has certain restrictions, CW has others. At no point do these two sets of restrictions contradict each other. One can easily and clearly abide by both.

Look, Complete Warrior gave a short section to "Sleight of Hand". This presents a use for it not covered in the PHB. The two "contradict" each other, in that they say different things. Yet, nobody would argue that the Primary Source rule comes into effect here. Clearly both can exist side by side, and clearly they were intended to.




....actually, you know what? This whole thing, the original topic of debate, is explicitly in the rules.

"It's possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that grants an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligable to advance farther in a prestige class.

If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class."

There we go. Losing your Mobility armor hoses you over if you count on that for PrCs.

[FishAreWet]

If you walk into an AMF you lose the feat too. Watch out for that one.

[Zergrusheddie]

Schrodinger Dragon Disciple.

Anyone care to elaborate?

[Agent_0042]

Anyone care to elaborate?

Dragon disciple mandates that you cannot be a dragon to take the class, specifically mentioning that half-dragons don't qualify. Thus at tenth level, when you become a half-dragon, you no longer meet the requirements for dragon disciple and lose all the abilities of the class, which then causes you to meet the requirements once again and gain your class abilities including becoming a half-dragon, and so on.

[TheYoungKing]

Anyone care to elaborate?

Capstone for Dragon Disciple disqualifies you by the entry requirements.

Requirements:

Race: Any non-dragon (cannot already be a half-dragon)

The capstone Dragon Apotheosis makes them a half-dragon.

I prefer Schrodinger's ur-Priest, as it disqualifies itself at 1st level of the class.

[Godskook]

To become a Dragon Disciple, you can't be a half-dragon. But a Dragon Disciple gains the half-dragon template at L10. Thus, a L10 Dragon Disciple does not qualify to become a Dragon Disciple. According to the CW rules, he loses access to all class features of the PrC, which includes the template. Since he's no longer a half-dragon, he now qualifies for the PrC. Repeat ad absurdium.

[Caphi]

Anyone care to elaborate?

The argument is that using the CW/CAr rules for prestige classes, once you reach level 10 in Dragon Disciple, you gain the half-dragon template, which immediately disqualifies you for Dragon Disciple, which forbids you from entering it has a half-dragon. Or something like that.

Really, precedence arguments aside, I'm pretty sure no class feature should ever disable itself. Besides, the reason you can't be a half-dragon entering DD is that DD makes you a half-dragon.

[ericgrau]

I think most of the counter-example(s) (is there even more than one?) can be solved with common sense.

That said, I could have sworn I saw that pre-req rule in the SRD, but then I realized I was thinking of the feat rule. I don't think there's a PrC pre-req rule in core.

[2xMachina]

The argument is that using the CW/CAr rules for prestige classes, once you reach level 10 in Dragon Disciple, you gain the half-dragon template, which immediately disqualifies you for Dragon Disciple, which forbids you from entering it has a half-dragon. Or something like that.

Really, precedence arguments aside, I'm pretty sure no class feature should ever disable itself. Besides, the reason you can't be a half-dragon entering DD is that DD makes you a half-dragon.

Half Dragon. The other half, also Dragon.

(Pink dragon anyone? Red/White dragon)

[tyckspoon]

I think most of the counter-example(s) (is there even more than one?) can be solved with common sense.

Most of the transformational classes have potential to do this. Renegade Mastermaker does, I know, with requirement of being Humanoid and level 10 feature of being changed to Living Construct. There's also Swiftblade, which doesn't disqualify itself but *does* lock you into only ever using your 3rd level slots to cast Haste for the rest of your life (although for a Swiftblade this isn't necessarily so bad. Would still be nice to have the option for other things.)

[ericgrau]

Swiftblade says you only need to spend the level before swiftblade casting nothing but haste. Barring some kind of revision of the paste, that pre-req is safe from screwing up. Other transformational classes can be solved with same common sense.

If the rule exists, it is easy to figure out how to apply it in every case, as long as we are not as literal and silly as robots. The issue is still whether or not this pre-req rule actually exists for all PrCs. I couldn't find it.

[tyckspoon]

And if you hold that you must always meet all the entry requirements in order to keep advancing in a PrC, and in order to maintain the class benefits of the PrC.. then in order to be a Swiftblade you have to keep casting Haste in all your 3rd level slots forever. There is nothing that sets the Special: requirement apart from the more normal ones in respect to qualifying for the class. (Most classes with Special: requirements differ in that it's something you do once and then cannot unqualify afterwards, such as having died/nearly died or setting something on fire for the sake of setting something on fire. With Swiftblade, it's a requirement that you have to actively maintain.)

[Curmudgeon]

There's no disagreement. DMG has certain restrictions, CW has others. At no point do these two sets of restrictions contradict each other. One can easily and clearly abide by both.

No, you can't. Plus there are two different rules at issue here, both of which disagree with the DMG. The Dragon Disciple prestige class in the DMG already makes it impossible to use either the Complete Warrior or Complete Arcane rule.

To become a Dragon Disciple, you can't be a half-dragon. But a Dragon Disciple gains the half-dragon template at L10. Thus, a L10 Dragon Disciple does not qualify to become a Dragon Disciple. According to the CW rules, he loses access to all class features of the PrC, which includes the template. Since he's no longer a half-dragon, he now qualifies for the PrC.

Assuming widespread adoption of the Complete Warrior rule he would indeed qualify to enter the prestige class at some future point, having lost all 10 levels of Dragon Disciple abilities automatically upon becoming disqualified.

Assuming instead widespread adoption of the Complete Arcane rule he would lose class special abilities upon becoming disqualified at 10th level, but retain bonus spells gained from the PrC.

Repeat ad absurdium.

No, repetition is not specified in the the rules here -- unless you're recommending taking 10 levels of Dragon Disciple over and over. Remember, neither of these two rules includes a mechanism for regaining lost abilities. Burn through too many spells, get temporary ability damage, or whatever, and you've lost everything but HD, BAB, and saves (plus extra spells, in the case of the Complete Arcane rule) from your investment in those prestige class levels.

I think most of the counter-example(s) (is there even more than one?) can be solved with common sense.

Dragon Disciple (DMG), Dragon Devotee (Races of the Dragon, and Ur-Priest (Complete Divine), plus Renegade Mastermaker (Magic of Eberron), as tyckspoon mentioned. I'm sure there are others.

WotC rules specify how this is done. Common sense is strictly for house rules, given that there's an official solution already in existence.

[sonofzeal]

No, you can't. Plus there are two different rules at issue here, both of which disagree with the DMG. The Dragon Disciple prestige class in the DMG already makes it impossible to use either the Complete Warrior or Complete Arcane rule.

You know, I talked about Dragon Disciple way back in my first post in this thread. It's entirely in line with WotC editorial standards to have the occasional awkward or illegal case like that. The fact that Dragon Disciple doesn't work with the rule doesn't disprove the rule, it just means Dragon Disciple was poorly-edited. The resolution for this case is an invocation of primary/secondary sources, but of the other type; Dragon Disciple is the specific source for entry and benefits of that particular PrC, so it overrides the general rule that you lose it, just like how Ranged Disarm overrides the general rule that Disarm requires a "melee attack roll". Neither case breaks the rule, merely provides an exception. Even if that were not the case, I'd argue Rules belong to a more primary source than Examples.


No, to disprove the CW rule we need an actual conflicting rule within the DMG. Let's see what we can find....

"If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class."

...yeah, that's about it. No contradiction here, it merely spells it out and reinforces it for the first level. Consider the following logic statements:

-- "IF you don't have a licence, THEN you can't start driving a car."

-- "IF you lose your licence, THEN you must stop driving your car."

Does the second one contradict the first?

[Riffington]

Dragon Disciple poses no real problem.
Cannot already be a half-dragon.
Already is unique language; in context it appears to imply that a character who becomes a half-dragon after having taken levels in the class does not lose the abilities. Had that word been omitted, there would be a problem.

[Fiery Diamond]

Remember, neither of these two rules includes a mechanism for regaining lost abilities. Burn through too many spells, get temporary ability damage, or whatever, and you've lost everything but HD, BAB, and saves (plus extra spells, in the case of the Complete Arcane rule) from your investment in those prestige class levels.

Actually, I think this is faulty reasoning. If I say: "If you lose your driver's license, you can no longer drive a car," this does NOT mean that if I gain my driver's license once more, I can still no longer drive a car. It just doesn't specify whether I can now drive a car again or not. Common sense dictates that I can now drive a car again, and similarly, common sense dictates that you regain your class features when you once again qualify.

Dragon Disciple poses no real problem.
Cannot already be a half-dragon.
Already is unique language; in context it appears to imply that a character who becomes a half-dragon after having taken levels in the class does not lose the abilities. Had that word been omitted, there would be a problem.

Also, this is very true, and I have no idea why people don't seem to understand this. It's rather obvious.

[Curmudgeon]

You know, I talked about Dragon Disciple way back in my first post in this thread. It's entirely in line with WotC editorial standards to have the occasional awkward or illegal case like that. The fact that Dragon Disciple doesn't work with the rule doesn't disprove the rule, it just means Dragon Disciple was poorly-edited.

So your argument says that the Dungeon Master's Guide, which came first, improperly violated a rule that didn't exist until Complete Warrior came out half a year later. And what then when Complete Arcane came out a year after that, with a different rule and yet another conflict?

You can't prove anything by this method. After all, someone could just as easily claim that everything disagreeable that you wrote is an example of an awkward or illegal case.

We've got a set of rules. We've got errata for those rules, and a defined process by which to resolve any conflicts. That's the RAW, which you previously attempted to enlist to support your argument. You're now trying to hand-wave away some part of the core rules because that's not working out for you. It does seem like you're making an awkward or illegal case on this occasion.

Actually, I think this is faulty reasoning. If I say: "If you lose your driver's license, you can no longer drive a car," this does NOT mean that if I gain my driver's license once more, I can still no longer drive a car. It just doesn't specify whether I can now drive a car again or not. Common sense dictates that I can now drive a car again, and similarly, common sense dictates that you regain your class features when you once again qualify.

A driver's license doesn't enable you to drive a car; it merely changes the consequences if you do drive one. Driving lessons enable you to drive a car.

Common sense dictates if you lose your license in the wash, you still know how to drive a car.

I think this analogy is faulty.

[Fiery Diamond]

A driver's license doesn't enable you to drive a car; it merely changes the consequences if you do drive one. Driving lessons enable you to drive a car.

Common sense dictates if you lose your license in the wash, you still know how to drive a car.

I think this analogy is faulty.

I'm not sure whether you are being serious or whether you are just being pedantic. If your native language is something other than English, I apologize, but it is rather obvious that I intended the definition of the word "may" rather than "can" when talking about the car. People frequently use "can" when "may" is what they mean.

In other words, my analogy had nothing to do with physical capability to use a car, and everything to do with legal capability to use a car. The analogy still holds; in both the car case and game case we are discussing legal (law-legal in the car case, rules-legal in the game case) ability (to drive a car; to make use of class features).

The analogy could be put in a more detailed format like this:

CAR
1) If I gain a driver's license, I may legally drive a car.
2) If I lose my driver's license, I may no longer legally drive a car.
--3) If I regain my driver's license after having lost it, I may now legally drive a car again.

GAME
1) If I meet the requirements, I may legally make use of class features listed for levels I take in a prestige class.
2) If I lose the requirements, I may no longer legally make use of class features listed for levels I have taken in a prestige class.
--3) If I regain those requirements after having lost them, I may now legally make use of class features listed for levels I have taken in a prestige class.


Common sense dictates #3 in both cases; law dictates #3 in the CAR case; nothing either dictates or contradicts #3 in the GAME case.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm not sure whether you are being serious or whether you are just being pedantic.

A bit of both, but I'm serious about the analogy being faulty.

For your driver's license analogy to work, all abilities granted by the license would have to be activated immediately upon it being granted, and all abilities deactivated upon loss. That's a viable comparison to a D&D feat, but not to a prestige class. Let's take the more extreme of these two "meeting class requirements" rules:

If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. The character retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided.

You don't just lose your first level prestige class abilities but all abilities gained at later levels; however, you retain HD, BAB, and saves from that class. Gaining the entry requirements of that PrC at some later date doesn't automatically grant you level 1 abilities (but subtracting those you've previously retained) and certainly not more advanced ones. Having a feat and meeting its requirements does give you its benefits.

As I've stated before, there's a defined mechanism for what you lose. You don't lose everything. There's only one mechanism defined for acquiring benefits, and that's taking new levels in a prestige class, advancing HD, BAB, and saves as well as class special abilities.

To make your driver's license analogy work, having a driver's license for more years (more levels) would automatically qualify you to drive commercial vehicles, boats, and planes. Losing it would still allow you partial benefit from those years of experience, like discounted insurance and identification for drinking in bars (retaining basic abilities, more with higher levels). This analogy just isn't good.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

curmudeon is one of our best rule lawyers. RAW he is right

RAW is silly. We (meaning zeal and everyone else) use the law of least brokenness to interject common sense and use the great idea of PrC characters not running around as PrCs they shouldn't be able to be. This is the same logic that makes every DM in existance not even bother reading rebuilding silliness.

Someone already pointed out that dragon disciple is not a good example. BTW the rules of recursiveness of ability calculations don't exist, which is just as applicable to this as it is to those infinite CL builds.

[Wings of Peace]

The real question you should be asking is "If I get a locational feat and pay a caster to Dark Chaos Shuffle it into something cooler do I still lose it after a year or does it even still count as my locational feat?"