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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    The title really says it all. I've looked through many books to try and find a way to increase my power points and save DC's for my various powers, and haven't come up with much. I don't particularly like psionatrix's (I believe that is how they are spelled), and other than that, I see no other easy ways other than increasing my intellegence (I'm playing a psion). Any help, creatures of the forums?

    Edit: Something I forgot to mention. My DM is a big stickler on rules, so I can't go ahead and do something like change a Ring of Wizardry into a Ring of Psionics, despite there being a Ring of Epic Psionics and a Ring of Epic Wizardry.
    Last edited by Flob; 2010-04-04 at 08:29 PM.
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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    Quote Originally Posted by Flob View Post
    The title really says it all. I've looked through many books to try and find a way to increase my power points and save DC's for my various powers, and haven't come up with much. I don't particularly like psionatrix's (I believe that is how they are spelled), and other than that, I see no other easy ways other than increasing my intellegence (I'm playing a psion). Any help, creatures of the forums?
    Headband of Int + X? Lacking that Animal Affinity.
    Torc of Power Perservation? The MIC or XPH version. It lowers cost of powers at least.
    Overchannel increases Manifester.

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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    I do like the torc, but it's going to be a few more sessions until I can buy something that costs that much. I did say "other than increasing my intelligence", but, hey, whatever. I might take overchannel later, but right now, the party is a little uneven ever since our main tank has stopped showing up to sessions. Don't want to go dieing on my people, what with me being the only one able to use my "Power Stones of Psionic Revivication". Also, I don't see the torc in the Magic Item Compendium. Am I missing the meaning of MIC?
    Last edited by Flob; 2010-04-04 at 08:37 PM.
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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    Just mentioning, although it isn't what you are looking for, if something increases 'caster level', not arcane caster level or divine caster, but just caster level, it increases manifester level as well. This is due to the Magic/Psionics Transparency that is assumed as the default in campaigns.

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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    I recall some stuff in ebberon that one could use to augment powers which would in turn raise the DC. Let me look those up.

    Also magic item compendium page 143.

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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    You could do one of the various tricks to get infinite power points.

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    Spell Mastery. Seriously a Wizard without Spell Mastery is like a Fighter without Weapon Focus: possible, but why?

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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    "big stickler on rules" as in "RAW over RAI"

    Earth Power+Torc of Power Preservation+Bestow Power (on self).

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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    Quote Originally Posted by sofawall View Post
    Just mentioning, although it isn't what you are looking for, if something increases 'caster level', not arcane caster level or divine caster, but just caster level, it increases manifester level as well. This is due to the Magic/Psionics Transparency that is assumed as the default in campaigns.
    Er is there some statement I am missing where it is said that the various cases manefester level can be directly substituted for caster level when convenient as if there is not this seems to be stepping quite a bit into the DM ruling department.

    Edit: I believe that power link shards from magic of ebberon is what I was thinking of as I recall them being able to be used to augment powers above their maximum.

    Also I believe the torc was reduced to 5 times a day in the MIC so something like that incarnum feat might be needed.
    Last edited by olentu; 2010-04-04 at 09:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    There is almost no psionic/magic transparency in our campaign. Caster level cannot be substituted for manifester level.

    In response to deuxhero, yes, RAW over RAI. It's quite irritating, but other than that, he is an amazing DM. Great plots, great at handling encounters, ect.

    In response to OldDemonsbane, unlimited power point chains will most likely get me a a one way ticket back to sitting at home. By myself. Playing WoW. That game is evil, ate up all my spare time... I will consider convincing him to let me do this, it's a good idea, but, yeah... probably not going to happen. Also, where is the strongheart shirt? It sounds... useful.
    Last edited by Flob; 2010-04-04 at 09:19 PM.
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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    "big stickler on rules" as in "RAW over RAI"

    Earth Power+Torc of Power Preservation+Bestow Power (on self).
    Oh, and to clarify:

    Bestow Power is a Psion/Wilder-2 power
    Earth Power is from Races of Stone (and requires Earth Sense)
    The Torc of Power Preservation is from the Expanded Psionics Handbook

    The way this particular recharge trick works:
    Bestow Power, by default costs 3 power points, and gives the recipient 2.
    The Torc of Power Preservation cuts the cost of all powers manifested by 1 point as long as it is worn.
    The Earth Power feat reduces the cost of all powers manifested by 1 point as long as you are standing on the ground.

    Between them, Bestow Power now costs 1 power point, and gives the recipient 2 power points (before Augmentation, and you don't want to augment it for this). Bestow Power on yourself repeatedly, and you're good to go.

    As for increasing the save DC:
    1) Use more power points.
    2) The Psionatrix gives a bonus to the save DC of specific schools of powers.
    3) Psionic Endowment and it's Greater cousin add to your save DC (you'll also want Psionic Meditation and Psicrystal Containment so you can stack them).
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    The torc in the MIC sucks. Use the one in the XPH (or the SRD).

    What kind of psion are you playing? A few of the disciplines are very good about pp-conservation (seer, nomad, shaper, egoist), while a couple really, really aren't (kineticist, telepath). I actually went ahead and forwent a headband of Int +4 in favor of a +2 on my shaper/constructor 11, since I could use the extra money more than I need the extra pp. Learn how to use your powers effectively and you'll do well (not so great on a kineticist or telepath, obviously).

    If you want to improve your DCs, Greater/Psionic Endowment is your friend. If you're a telepath, Illithid Compulsion is nice (though it requires Illithid Heritage, which is pretty well useless). If you use rays, Greater/Psionic Shot will add some extra dice, and Aligned Attack (Chaotic or Evil) combines well with a greater/chasuble of fell power (an item from C.Arcane) for additional damage. Some cheap +Xd6 damage items from the MIC (such as gauntlets of giantfelling and the piercer cloak) can net you a bit extra when you really need the oomph. Proper application of metapsionics can do you well, as well. Split Psionic Ray and Chain Power go well if used correctly (though you need to judge how to use them properly if you want to get better use from them).

    Some powers do really well at helping you to blast more efficiently. Such as fate link. To increase your damage output, especially if you damage both linked creatures simultaneously to increase damage (make one of the linked targets a disposable minion to improve the likelihood of this working; if that minion has hostile empathic transfer as a power known, all the better, but if not the penalties for being linked to a dying creature are good enough). Energy retort on yourself, if you set yourself up to get attacked. Energy current is good damage for the duration of the power (especially to linked critters). Energy wall coupled with energy push (use Greater Psionic Shot and Maximize Power to knock a target through an Empowered energy wall and into an actual wall has some nice damage-dealing potential).

    A special note on a single power, although it's not one you'll get access to if until later levels. Energy conversion is incredible at blasting, especially if you set yourself up for it. Imagine getting it at level 13, then using psychic reformation to swap some things around. You now have Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment, Psionic Meditation, Greater Psionic Shot, EK: schism, EK: metamorphosis, Aligned Attack (along with a greater chasuble of fell power), Split Psionic Ray, Chained Power, energy wall, and energy conversion. Use Split Psionic Ray and Chained Power on energy conversion, sharing it with your psicrystal. Now both you and your crystal buddy sit inside an energy wall for a half-hour, absorbing energy. Now, when you enter battle, manifest metamorphosis on your psicrystal (shared with yourself, if you have some nice high-Dex/high-Con forms you want), so you can affect your psicrystal with schism (which you then do). Now you and your psicrystal each can fire two beams of energy that split off to hit a dozen other creatures, with two schisms that ALSO do so. Meanwhile, you can spend your psionic focuses (foci?) to add Greater Psionic Shot (for +4d6) and Aligned Attack (for +3d6 with the greater chasuble) to one of yours during the round. You can also add those yummy +Xd6s from your MIC items as well. So...that's 8 beams a round, each doing (at level 13) 39 dmg each, dealing 19 Chaining dmg to a maximum of 104 creatures, with extra damage on top for expending your focus. And this is doable for 10 min/lvl or until you run out of juice (in which case you can just sit inside an energy wall again, possibly holding a torch by the wrong end, while getting sicced upon by the the party ranger's cryohydra animal companion's breath weapons, and standing in a campfire as well).

    ...Not bad, eh?

    Also, look up the manifester weapon property, and think about exactly what would happen if you had that property on, say, arrows (keeping in mind that ranged weapon properties affect 50 pieces of ammo, with all of them having identical properties).

    You may also want to consider purchasing a casting or two of polymorph any object to turn yourself into a sarruhk, a pit fiend, or a planetar. Something with an insane Int score. You won't get any Su or Sp abilities, but you WILL get the Intelligence score (modified by your age, points put in via levels, magic items you've got, and so on), which means you should get some massive bonuses (just watch out for dispelling; dispelling buffer is a nice thing to have in this case, though why it's not a general power I've no idea).

    I can come up with more ideas as you need them.
    Last edited by Lycanthromancer; 2010-04-04 at 10:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    Quote Originally Posted by olentu View Post
    Er is there some statement I am missing where it is said that the various cases manefester level can be directly substituted for caster level when convenient as if there is not this seems to be stepping quite a bit into the DM ruling department.
    From the [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm]
    Psionics-Magic Transparency

    Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

    When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.

    Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

    All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

    The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

    Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.
    The default rule is that for all things you may replace "psionic" with "magic" and "caster" with "manifester" freely. It's the DM's responsibility to say when this is not the case.

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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeful View Post
    From the [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm]


    The default rule is that for all things you may replace "psionic" with "magic" and "caster" with "manifester" freely. It's the DM's responsibility to say when this is not the case.
    I do not see the word caster or the word manifester at all in that selection. While that exchange may or may not have been the intent of the selection the exchange is not delineated thus leaving us at the requirement of DM interpretation as to what things and how those things that could affect powers do affect them.

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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    Quote Originally Posted by olentu View Post
    I do not see the word caster or the word manifester at all in that selection. While that exchange may or may not have been the intent of the selection the exchange is not delineated thus leaving us at the requirement of DM interpretation as to what things and how those things that could affect powers do affect them.
    "Magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics."

    That means orange ioun stones and other such CL boosters.

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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    "Magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics."

    That means orange ioun stones and other such CL boosters.
    However it does not say that "magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics and in the case of magic items that raise caster level they do so in such a way that all instances of a caster level increase that is not defined as either arcane or divine directly translates into an increase in the manefester level of a psionic character that is using said item". All that extra stuff so far seems to be pulled out of thin air and perceived intent so while I could see a DM ruling in such a way I could also see a DM ruling that you just got a somewhat less useful totally awesome increase in the caster level of your power. So in the end my point remains that without a statement saying how any one particular magic item and so forth could or could not affect psionics the interaction falls under the ruling of the DM.
    Last edited by olentu; 2010-04-05 at 06:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    Quote Originally Posted by olentu View Post
    However it does not say that "magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics and in the case of magic items that raise caster level they do so in such a way that all instances of a caster level increase that is not defined as either arcane or divine directly translates into an increase in the manefester level of a psionic character that is using said item".
    Of course it doesn't. The writers didn't overuse redundancy for its own sake.

    Q1) Is this a magic item? Orange Ioun Stone.
    A1) Yes.

    Q2) Could it potentially affect psionics?
    A2) Yes. (it could potentially increase ML for psionics in the same way it increases CL for magic)

    If (A1)=Yes and (A2)=Yes?

    Then it works. No need to outline everything in a triple doozie run on sentence for each possible application. If the books were written in that way?

    Nobody'd get past page 2 before saying, "screw this, I'm playing xbox".

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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    For extra power points Subverted Psion is pretty high end depending on your taint scores.
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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    Adding to PhoenixRiver's post:

    "Manifester level is the psionic equivalent of caster level" - Rules of the Game.
    Last edited by Optimystik; 2010-04-05 at 07:08 AM.

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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    First off, thanks everyone who has posted for the help. I'm going to try a lot of these when I can, others, such as the subverted psion, I cannot. Specifically to Lycanthromancer. I like the wall of fire/energy conversion idea, but in NO WAY would my DM be okay with that. I was skating on thin ice when I so much as suggested turning the Arch Psion into a 3.5 playable prestige class, and that isn't even broken.

    If anyone has more ideas, feel free to keep them coming.
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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    3) Psionic Endowment and it's Greater cousin add to your save DC (you'll also want Psionic Meditation and Psicrystal Containment so you can stack them).
    Err, no you can't stack the two feats even with two focuses
    "When you use the Psionic Endowment feat, you add +2 to the save DC of a power you manifest instead of +1."
    The focus is expended on the psionic endowment, and the greater endowment feat simply increases the bonus.

    Still getting Psionic/Greater Endowment plus Meditation is a good idea, assuming you don't need your move action that round its a +2DC on all your powers.
    My now retried psion did that.

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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixRivers View Post
    Of course it doesn't. The writers didn't overuse redundancy for its own sake.

    Q1) Is this a magic item? Orange Ioun Stone.
    A1) Yes.

    Q2) Could it potentially affect psionics?
    A2) Yes. (it could potentially increase ML for psionics in the same way it increases CL for magic)

    If (A1)=Yes and (A2)=Yes?

    Then it works. No need to outline everything in a triple doozie run on sentence for each possible application. If the books were written in that way?

    Nobody'd get past page 2 before saying, "screw this, I'm playing xbox".
    That is as I have said a possible DM ruling however any magic item could potentially affect psionic powers by raising manefester level by 7 if one is just going to just make up some new things that it could possibly do but does not say it does. So why must one change or add to the wording of an item on one place and not in an another.

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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    Olentu, PhoenixRivers is merely suggesting that it is a possibility that a DM would accept this as a way to increase a manifesters manifester level. I have emailed my DM to see if he would accept this, and am waiting on a response. This is more of an opinion kind of arguement, so no need to keep it up.
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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    Quote Originally Posted by olentu View Post
    That is as I have said a possible DM ruling however any magic item could potentially affect psionic powers by raising manefester level by 7 if one is just going to just make up some new things that it could possibly do but does not say it does. So why must one change or add to the wording of an item on one place and not in an another.
    What the hell are you saying? Why would this need a special ruling?

    Caster Level and Manifester Level are the same thing, just with a special name for psionics. An item that increases Caster Level - not arcane CL, not divine CL, just CL - increases Manifester Level.
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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    Quote Originally Posted by olentu View Post
    That is as I have said a possible DM ruling
    ...in the sense that following the rules in the book is "possible."

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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    Quote Originally Posted by Flob View Post
    Olentu, PhoenixRivers is merely suggesting that it is a possibility that a DM would accept this as a way to increase a manifesters manifester level. I have emailed my DM to see if he would accept this, and am waiting on a response. This is more of an opinion kind of arguement, so no need to keep it up.
    Well the thing is that when I read the argument I am getting that it is being said that a DM must accept it as a way to increase manefester level barring rule 0.

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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    Quote Originally Posted by olentu View Post
    Well the thing is that when I read the argument I am getting that it is being said that a DM must accept it as a way to increase manefester level barring rule 0.
    No the DM mustn't accept it. What the DM must do however, is dictate how magic and psionics interact in his campaign. The default is the Magic/Psionics Transparency rule I provided earlier. Under that rule CL boosters also increase Manifester Level as "Caster" and "Manifester" become equivalent terms under that rule.

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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeful View Post
    No the DM mustn't accept it. What the DM must do however, is dictate how magic and psionics interact in his campaign. The default is the Magic/Psionics Transparency rule I provided earlier. Under that rule CL boosters also increase Manifester Level as "Caster" and "Manifester" become equivalent terms under that rule.
    You have yet to quote the part of the transparency section that actually says such a thing given that the selection you posted earlier had neither caster nor did it have manifester in it as far as I could find. If you believe I missed the words being used please direct my attention to where they are used in the transparency section.

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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    Quote Originally Posted by olentu View Post
    Well the thing is that when I read the argument I am getting that it is being said that a DM must accept it as a way to increase manefester level barring rule 0.
    Saying "the default rules don't apply to my world" IS rule 0.

    Quote Originally Posted by olentu View Post
    You have yet to quote the part of the transparency section that actually says such a thing given that the selection you posted earlier had neither caster nor did it have manifester in it as far as I could find. If you believe I missed the words being used please direct my attention to where they are used in the transparency section.
    "X that could potentially affect psionics, does affect psionics" is an inclusive statement.
    Last edited by Optimystik; 2010-04-05 at 03:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Saying "the default rules don't apply to my world" IS rule 0.



    "X that could potentially affect psionics, does affect psionics" is an inclusive statement.
    And that means that an orange ioun stone raises manfester level since it does not says it doesn't just like how all +3 daggers automatically counter all psionic powers used in a 55 mile radius since it does not says it doesn't (the +1 dragonbane scythe has more of a spell turning effect).

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    Default Re: Increasing a Full Manifester's Power Points/Power Save DC's

    Quote Originally Posted by olentu View Post
    And that means that an orange ioun stone raises manfester level since it does not says it doesn't just like how all +3 daggers automatically counter all psionic powers used in a 55 mile radius since it does not says it doesn't (the +1 dragonbane scythe has more of a spell turning effect).
    No, it means an Orange Ioun Stone raises Manifester Level, because it raises Caster Level.

    I repeat: "Manifester level is the psionic equivalent of caster level"

    Now, you can insist on being difficult if you like, or you can yield to common sense. Your choice.

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