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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

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    Default Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    What are your favorite buffs to use with Chain Spell -- without using any +reach shenanigans? Most of the single target buffs I can recall have a range of touch.

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    Default Re: Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    Greater magic weapon/vestments, so everyone in the party has +5 weapons. Also a cheap way of buffing an army.

    Create magic tattoo since you don't have to use any extra material components (which isn't cheap, at 100gp per pop). Extend it so it lasts for 2 days.

    Nerveskitter to give the whole party +5 initiative.

    Chained death ward is a 7th lv spell, making it more efficient than mass death ward (8th lv spell, IIRC).

    Ditto for freedom of movement. You can efficiently buff the entire party at a moment's notice.

    Spell immunity to give everyone immunity to some of the more popular lower lv spells. With enough metamagic reducers, you can even squeeze in greater magic immunity.

    Maybe raise dead if your entire party dies but you...

    The ability to buff your entire party at once, rather than having to cast the same spell repeatedly does wonders for action economy, especially in the thick of combat.
    Last edited by Runestar; 2010-04-04 at 10:43 PM.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    GMW has a range of close, so that would work. My SpC is packed away right now, but IRCC, Nerveskitter and Create Magic Tatoo are touch ranged. Is there a Greater Magic Vestment that is also close range?

    The rest of those are touch. I'm coming to the conclusion that Chain is really only great if your DM accepts that archmage or reach spell, etc. changes the actual range of the spell. The wording on Archmage and Hierophant's ability seems to indicate otherwise.

    "The archmage can use spells with a range of touch on a target up to 30 feet away."

    I don't want an argument over RAW, but I'm looking for a list of uses for Chain Spell that any DM should allow.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    Nobody else?

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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    Nerveskitter should be close range, IIRC. I have always interpreted that reach spell would work on touch spells, hence my inclusion of touch spells.

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    Default Re: Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    Grease: At low level, you can target your friend's armor to give them +10 to escape artist checks. Essentially a poor man's Freedom of Movement, when you're fighting grappling enemies and the like. Can also be used to grease up the weapons of an army of mooks so that they have to fight barehanded.

    Enlarge Person: There is Mass Enlarge Person, but if you are limited in spells known for some reason (e.g. Sorcerer, Beguiler UMDing Runestaves), Chain Enlarge Person is a legitimate target.

    Insight of Good Fortune: For a single d20 roll, your entire party can now roll twice and take the better of two results. Rarely used due to 20 gp material component, but chaining it makes the cost a bit more tolerable. Use it when you know a tough fight is coming up.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    Nerveskitter should be close range, IIRC. I have always interpreted that reach spell would work on touch spells, hence my inclusion of touch spells.
    I don't blame you. I haven't recently read the text on the reach spell feat, so I might rule the same.

    This question arose as I was considering what Metamagic would work best with the Ultimate Magus' Augmented Casting. So, I ruled out the Reach Spell feat since AC can't be used on a Metamagicked spell. I considered the archmage ability until I reread the text, but wanted to be able to chain earlier than that when AC first becomes available to the UM.

    You might be right about Nerveskitter. It would seem unreasonable to require a touch on an Imed. Action. I've never cast it on anyone else, it always seemed the most prudent to use on my own character.

    So far it looks like my metamagic feats will be: Extend Spell, Sculpt Spell, and Quicken Spell. I've heard a lot of hype about Chain Spell, but I think most of the time, folks are talking about using a Chain+Reach combo (probably with some metamagic reduction). I suppose Split Ray might be worth picking up.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    Grease: At low level, you can target your friend's armor to give them +10 to escape artist checks. Essentially a poor man's Freedom of Movement, when you're fighting grappling enemies and the like. Can also be used to grease up the weapons of an army of mooks so that they have to fight barehanded.

    Enlarge Person: There is Mass Enlarge Person, but if you are limited in spells known for some reason (e.g. Sorcerer, Beguiler UMDing Runestaves), Chain Enlarge Person is a legitimate target.

    Insight of Good Fortune: For a single d20 roll, your entire party can now roll twice and take the better of two results. Rarely used due to 20 gp material component, but chaining it makes the cost a bit more tolerable. Use it when you know a tough fight is coming up.
    Thanks. Enlarge Person works. I'm a little worried about the save DC on Grease to use it offensively at that level, especially with the penalty to DC afforded by Chain Spell.

    I'm having trouble finding even one good buff per level to make it worthwhile.

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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    Yep, nerveskitter is close range. Only question is if it is worth a 4th lv slot to grant the entire party +5 initiative.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    Yep, nerveskitter is close range. Only question is if it is worth a 4th lv slot to grant the entire party +5 initiative.
    If your party consists of people with bursty abilities, it's totally worth it. Flat footed enemies tend to die pretty quickly.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    Yep, nerveskitter is close range. Only question is if it is worth a 4th lv slot to grant the entire party +5 initiative.
    How about a 1st and 3rd level slot, when you have tons of low level slots to burn?

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    Default Re: Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    The save DC (generally) isn't what matters for Grease. What matters is that in order to move within the area, the enemies are Balancing, which makes them automatically flat-footed, no matter how low the DC is (unless they have 5 ranks in balance--so don't cast it at a Rogue and you'll be fine). This lowers AC, allows them to be sneak-attacked without trying, etc. Good stuff.

    Ditto on enlarge person. It's nice to only store one of those in your spellbook.

    Other thoughts--a lot of good enchantments (Dominate Person, for instance) have a range greater than touch. The penalty to save DC is annoying on these, but even if you can get two people instead of one, it's probably already worth it.

    EDIT: but yes, you can't chain that version of Grease, sadly =P
    Last edited by Dr Bwaa; 2010-04-05 at 11:37 AM.
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    Default Re: Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    chained grease? Yikes.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    I agree grease is awesome for that, but you can only chain the targeted version of grease (the weapons of the mook army example above). The problem with that is that attended objects get a reflex save to avoid the effect.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    I believe the following spells will work with Chain Spell, and either effect willing subjects, or don't allow a save. Many of them are situational at best.

    From the SRD:

    Mending

    Hold Portal
    Grease (Multiple allies in a grapple)
    Animate Rope (Cool idea for a BBEG with a room full of ropes. See Grease)
    Enlarge Person
    Reduce Person

    Shatter (Unattended objects)
    Misdirection
    Knock
    Levitate

    Dispel Magic
    Keen Edge

    Greater Magic Weapon

    Break Enchantment
    Sending
    Permanency (On Telepathic Bond, this spell targets only one "link", even though Telepathic Bond creates several)

    Greater Dispel Magic
    Create Undead (Although since they copied the material component wording from Animate Dead, you still need all the Material Components.)
    Stone to Flesh

    Instant Summons
    Power Word X

    Mind Blank
    Discern Location
    Antipathy/Sympathy
    Create Greater Undead (Same as Create Undead)
    Polymorph Any Object (As if it weren't broken enough)

    Freedom

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    Default Re: Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    If you're barring the reach spell feat, the real strength of chain spell is not for party buffing, but for enemy debuffing. Yah yah, -4 save DC, blah blah, half damage to secondary targets blah blah blah, I know. Hear me out.

    Target an enemy with dispel magic (or better yet, arcane turmoil) and chain it, and you can effectively hit an entire group of foes with a targeted dispel. Since it offers no save and deals no damage, you're bypassing the drawbacks of chain spell.

    Chain a fell draining enervation, and you can debuff a group of enemies at once. Chain a fell draining ray of frost and you can debuff a group of enemies at once on the cheap.
    Chain a fell weakening moilian ray of exhaustion and you can inflict a -10 Strength penalty to a group of foes.

    Any time you have a spell that inflicts status effects with no save (or can attach a debuff to a spell with a rider like fell drain), chain spell is great because it will pass on that debuff to all secondary targets without diminishing the effect.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    Rays are also questionable. Ray spells don't have a Target field in their description. But absolutely Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, Power Word X etc. are great.

    If you have enough prospective targets, chaining a SoL would be fine, but I'm looking for predictable goodness. I'm also working within the paradigm that players prefer it when the Wizard makes them awesome (at least some of the time), than when the Wizard wins on the first round.

    Again an UM can't stack metamagic when using Augmented Casting.

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    Default Re: Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    Valiant Fury from SpC is awesome. +4 moral bonus on Str and Con, plus a bonus attack (similar to haste, doesn't stack with haste). EVERYONE needs more Con, and the Str and haste effect are nice. Especially the Str, since its a MORAL bonus, and almost nothing gives a moral bonus to stats.

    Unfortunately, its a 5rd level spell, and only available from the Courage domain, but still, its a strong one when you use it.
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    Chain dispel is already available as a 8th lv spell, so it makes little sense to apply chain spell to greater dispelling unless you don't have PHB2 or something.

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    Default Re: Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    Chain Dispel is also one of the VERY few dispel spells that has a CL cap higher than 20. GDM caps at 20, so a caster with a lot of CL bumps (like an Archmage with an Orange IWIN Stone + Ring of Arcane Might) would benefit from Chain Dispel over Chained GDM, level difference aside.
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    Default A 21 Wand Salute

    If you apply the Chain Spell metamamagic feat to the following spell, you could simultaneously trigger up to a maximum of 21 wands (when your caster level hits 20). Your character could also get some material to bind all the wands together like a package of fireworks... leveled at your enemy.

    Or better yet, just carry a tube over your shoulder with a strap like a bazooka, with a bundle of wands secured inside and pointed towards the open end. Then you can lift it over your shoulder and level it at your enemy as you cast...

    You could also do this with Scepters as described in Lost Empires of Faerun.

    ////////////////////////////

    Awaken from Afar
    Evocation
    Level: Sor/Wiz 5, Clr 6, Drd 6
    Components: V
    Casting Time: 1 action
    Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
    Target: One spell trigger activation item
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: No

    An awaken from afar spell allows you to use a spell trigger item without actually touching the item. The item to be activated must be within the range of the awaken from afar spell, and it functions as though you yourself were triggering it from its current position. All other conditions, such as the requirement that you have the spell on your spell list or if the item's enchantment restricts its use to a particular race or individual, still apply. Both you and the item to be activated have to be on the same plane. The item cannot be in the possession of another creature at the time of activation, and it must be an item that you have previously triggered normally (in other words, without the aid of an awaken from afar spell.

    ////////////////////////////

    This spell is found at the following URL: Wyrms of the North: Arveiaturace, "The White Wyrm"

    ////////////////////////////

    For the Chain Spell list...

    I'd also include the Bane Weapon spell (Clr 4, Sor/Wiz 4) from Dragon #279 (pg. 47) in the "Revenge of the Spider Queen" article.

    I'd also add Supress Magic (Sor/Wiz 2) from "Magic of Incarnum" as well since it doesn't have a CL cap and is good for spurssing enemy items.
    Last edited by Andion Isurand; 2011-02-28 at 09:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    You know what's another good spell to Chain? Delay Death. Saves you on necromancy costs.
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    Default Re: Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    Might want to check out zee rulez, specially the part about thead necromancy. Remember, ALWAYS check the last post date before posting.

    If you want to comment on a dead thread, proper ettiquette round here is to start a new thread, link the post relating to it, quote any relevant parts from it, and build from there.
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    Default Re: Best Buffs for Chain Spell (3.5)

    Combine with Incantatrix and Ocular Spell to turn any non-personal spell chainable. Chain/Ocularize Haste the party and Persist that puppy!
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