Would at will low level magic be IMBA at high levels?

[krossbow]

Mulling this over in my mind, considering such classes as the warlock with invocations and the truenamer.


At high levels, would it be unbalanced for someone to be able to cast low level magic an unlimited number of times? Since CR and spells scale so that low level spells tend to become outclassed into obselence against non-trivial opponents, would being able to, at will, sling magic missles, burning hands or fireballs be overpowered?

I know that wizards and sorcerers are already ridiculous, so any benefits to them simply hurt the system more, so lets look at another example. Bards. Lets assume that healing spells and other divine ones are removed from his list; would the bard become OP if he could cast any of his spells whenever he wanted to? or the warmage, if he could cast at will his spells.

[The Glyphstone]

Depends on where 'low level' ends. For a bard, at-will 1st levels would mean he just gets a permanent +1 to Inspire Courage, from spamming Inspirational Boost.

[Kylarra]

We do have reserve feats for most of your minor magical tricks at-will needs.

[krossbow]

Depends on where 'low level' ends. For a bard, at-will 1st levels would mean he just gets a permanent +1 to Inspire Courage, from spamming Inspirational Boost.

Lets say he can at will spells that are half as high level as his highest known spells (if he knows level 2 spells, he can at will level 1s, if he knows level 4s he can at will level 2s, if he knows level 6s he can at will level 3s).

[Dr Bwaa]

Lets say he can at will spells that are half as high level as his highest known spells (if he knows level 2 spells, he can at will level 1s, if he knows level 4s he can at will level 2s, if he knows level 6s he can at will level 3s).

If that's the definition, then it is certainly overpowered. Free 4th-and-lower spells at-will from level 17 on? Holy hell. 1/day Enervate as a SLA is a +1 LA. Enervate at-will, even as a normal spell, is... more.

EDIT: I am somewhat unclear on your original post: do you mean only these limited casters get at-wills? That would make it a little better, but i still think that your metric is too strong. I don't remember where, but there's some class that allows you to get an at-will SLA like you suggest--but you have to permanently give up a spell slot 7 or 8 levels higher or something to do it. Oy.

EDIT2: Okay. But I stand by what I said--giving duskblades their spells at-will is the same as saying "always add 5d6 damage to every attack, minimum, for free." That is a pretty intense baseline without even trying to do anything fancy.

[krossbow]

If that's the definition, then it is certainly overpowered. Free 4th-and-lower spells at-will from level 17 on? Holy hell. 1/day Enervate as a SLA is a +1 LA. Enervate at-will, even as a normal spell, is... more.

I said to not include wizards and sorcerer's in the thought experiment above. Just secondary casters (things like bard, duskblade, warmage, ect.)

[Tinydwarfman]

At wills need to created as at wills, otherwise you will end up with some very unbalanced options. Look at things like warlock invocations for ideas on what can and can't be done.

[Kylarra]

EDIT: I am somewhat unclear on your original post: do you mean only these limited casters get at-wills? That would make it a little better, but i still think that your metric is too strong. I don't remember where, but there's some class that allows you to get an at-will SLA like you suggest--but you have to permanently give up a spell slot 7 or 8 levels higher or something to do it. Oy.

The Archmage.

[BRC]

My main worry would be things like building a fortress with unlimited Walls of Stone. Healing up between fights with unlimited Cure Spells/Restorations, unlimited Protection from Energy,

[krossbow]

Sorry if its unclear. Let me try and clarify my statement.

Limiting this to arcane casters, to prevent unlimited healing:

Disregarding full progression casters, such as wizards or sorcerers, and limiting the options to secondary casters, how much would allowing limited at will casting (defined as: Any spell who's level is half as high as your highest level spell) unbalance the game?


Not arguing for or against this on either side, just interested somewhat in what abuses people could think up for this. Especially interested in if these abuses help melee classes or the casters themselves more.

[Eldan]

You could consider just giving casters a few reserve feats as bonus feats.

[Kylarra]

Why not just use the reserve feats out of CMage/CChamp? They already model experienced casters being able to do minor magical tricks at-will with slight scaling as you increase in power.

[krossbow]

Why not just use the reserve feats out of CMage/CChamp? They already model experienced casters being able to do minor magical tricks at-will with slight scaling as you increase in power.

I am unfamiliar with that book. do you think you could give me a rough description of that feat?

[Kylarra]

I am unfamiliar with that book. do you think you could give me a rough description of that feat?

Each feat is associated with a certain type of spell. As long as you have an uncast spell of that type, for example fiery burst uses [Fire] type spells, you can do some sort of effect at will, usually as a standard action, generally a lesser version of the iconics for that spell type, fiery burst deals damage for instance.

[Aron Times]

Fiery Burst lets you cast a mini-Fireball that deals 1d6 damage per spell level of the highest-level fire spell you know or have prepared. For example, if you are a sorcerer who knows Meteor Swarm, you can cast 9d6 mini-Fireballs all day long.

[Gnaeus]

Unlimited healing isn't imbalanced. If anything, it is probably a good thing for game balance, since it helps melee more than magic.

Unlimited 4th level spells for a 15+ level caster doesn't add a huge amount. You have to check on a spell-by-spell basis, because there are a some that you can abuse, but really, a 15th level caster can probably cast a 4+ level spell every round of every combat in a typical day, and if he runs out, he probably has a wand/staff/scroll, so you are just saving him a tiny amount of gold. The biggest effect I would think would be encouraging casters to use their highest level slots on quickened or persisted spells to maximize their advantage in action economy.

Letting a duskblade add 5d6 to every attack all day long doesn't break the game. A high level martial adept can already do that or better.

Warmage is a dangerous choice if you give to limited casters but not full ones. Does the love extend to Warmage's older brothers, Beguiler and Dread Necro? They certainly have abusive stuff they can pull. If the Warmage takes a PRC, does he keep the love? Because a Warmage isn't terribly abusive, but a Rainbow Warsnake with unlimited low level casting can do some major stuff.

[Kylarra]

Fiery Burst lets you cast a mini-Fireball that deals 1d6 damage per spell level of the highest-level fire spell you know or have prepared. For example, if you are a sorcerer who knows Meteor Swarm, you can cast 9d6 mini-Fireballs all day long.

I was trying to avoid giving hard numbers for the copyright reasons, but yes. that is how it works almost exactly.

[Jack_Simth]

I was trying to avoid giving hard numbers for the copyright reasons, but yes. that is how it works almost exactly.

Try RealmsHelps. They've got full text of most feats, and link to the book they're from so you can buy it.

As for what it'd do?
Your bard-10 now has ... Sound Burst (Fort save), Glitterdust (Will save), Invisibility, and Summon Monster II at-will. If he doesn't have cover, he just uses Invisibility, then spams Summon Monster II... eventually surrounding you, if you don't have a simple way to find him (poor, poor fighter). If he does have enough cover to actually hide, he glitterdusts you to blindness, then Sound Bursts you to death.

Those are some pretty useful spells, especially in combination - Invisibility + Summon Monster X is crazy-good if they're at-will ... and your opponent doesn't have an invisibility counter.

[Kylarra]

Try RealmsHelps. They've got full text of most feats, and link to the book they're from so you can buy it.

I don't know if linking to realmshelps is legit or not. I have the books, I just didn't want to give the full crunch for the feat.

[AslanCross]

Well, CrystalKeep gets linked here quite frequently. I think they're legit.

In any case, the Reserve Feats are a good compromise. It's really not like Arcane Casters need yet another strength boost.

[Gorbash]

I know that wizards and sorcerers are already ridiculous, so any benefits to them simply hurt the system more

They're ridiculous because of their high lvl spellcasting. Playing a 15th lvl Wizard myself, I don't really get to spend lower level slots, since I have enough of the higher level ones. So, even if I had at will 1st and 2nd lvl spells I probably wouldn't be using them more than I use them now.

[Tao the Ninja]

EDIT: I am somewhat unclear on your original post: do you mean only these limited casters get at-wills? That would make it a little better, but i still think that your metric is too strong. I don't remember where, but there's some class that allows you to get an at-will SLA like you suggest--but you have to permanently give up a spell slot 7 or 8 levels higher or something to do it. Oy.

Its Innate Spell. Its a feat. Either CAr, CM, or PH2, I think.

[Jack_Simth]

They're ridiculous because of their high lvl spellcasting. Playing a 15th lvl Wizard myself, I don't really get to spend lower level slots, since I have enough of the higher level ones. So, even if I had at will 1st and 2nd lvl spells I probably wouldn't be using them more than I use them now.

Ah, but there's things you can do with at-will effects that you can't do with limited-use effects. Like, say, collapse the side of a canyon. Or be constantly invisible. Or continually check with Detect Magic to watch for magical traps, locks, and loot.

Its Innate Spell. Its a feat. Either CAr, CM, or PH2, I think.

Innate Spell and it's in several sources. And it's got some fairly hefty requirements.

[Kylarra]

To be fair continuous detect magic is as simple as burning some exp on permanency.

[Jack_Simth]

To be fair continuous detect magic is as simple as burning some exp on permanency.

And burning a spell known on it. And avoiding getting dispelled. Alternately, there's a feat for it available at around the same time. And oh yes, Bards don't get Permanency.

[Godskook]

One really big exploit is if Heroism is available to a non-tier 2 or 1 caster.

[Kylarra]

And burning a spell known on it. And avoiding getting dispelled. Alternately, there's a feat for it available at around the same time. And oh yes, Bards don't get Permanency.

Well, there's paying a caster to cast it for you.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, there's paying a caster to cast it for you.

Detect Magic, unfortunately, is personal-only on Permanency.

[krossbow]

on themselves, this wouldn't necessarily overpower a secondary caster; as an example, warlocks can permanently fly, but are not 1st or 2nd tier. The danger i find in this is that they'd make good slaves/servants for primary casters, keeping them buffed up with such spells.


Making buff spells self only or banning primary casters (which would be heavy handed) would be the only way i could see to stop this.

Then again, wands can also lend themselves to similiar power creeps at high levels due to cheapness.

[Gorbash]

Ah, but there's things you can do with at-will effects that you can't do with limited-use effects. Like, say, collapse the side of a canyon. Or be constantly invisible. Or continually check with Detect Magic to watch for magical traps, locks, and loot.

Those are really irrelevant at high lvls, let alone IMBA. For Invisibility, there's a Ring of Invisibility that isn't even that expensive. Not to mention Invisibility breakes when you do something offensive and it's not worth casting it in combat. Every possible thing you can do with lower at will effects you can do more efficiently with higher lvl spells.

And burning a spell known on it. And avoiding getting dispelled. Alternately, there's a feat for it available at around the same time.

Vatic Gaze, that gives at will Detect Magic and the ability to determine spellcasting capabilities of a caster whom you targeted with it.