High Level Poison

[ericgrau]

I used to think poison has a pretty good sweet spot from levels 4-12, but today's comic shows a very good application against a level 15 foe. My best guess is:

Dragon bile, DC 26, 3d6 strength, 1500 gp
Level 15 wizard fort save: 5 (base) + 3 (con) + 3 (cloak of resitance) = 11; 70% chance of failing the save

Ouch, at 70% success that's more than plausible. 1500 gp is a bit much, but ending the encounter against a foe that would otherwise outclass you is worth quite a bit more. And that's from just one arrow. Conceivably if the attacker also won initiative he could have gotten a full attack as well for a total of 5 arrows with scorpion venom or purple worm poison on them. And these may also deal damage, perhaps even con damage from wounding arrows. All before the wizard lets off a single spell, and all you need to do it is a sneaky class like a rogue, bard or ranger.

So now I wonder what other tricks people can come up with to make good use of poison at high levels. And what about contact poisons, inhaled poisons, ingested poisons and those with good secondary damage? What additional tricks could someone pull with these?

[Lycanthromancer]

Something available from level 1: warforged shaper using psionic minor creation to create literal bucketfuls of black lotus extract.

Even if the enemy fails only on a nat 1, getting hit with 1,000+ doses of 3d6 Con damage is bound to ruin anyone's day (except those immune to it, anyway).

Also makes those grappling the warforged less than happy, since he and all of his items are coated in it.

[edit] Oh, and combine with a second manifestation of PMC to create small flasks made from very thin amber, and possibly quintessence, to coat them in once they're filled. Lotus grenades that last forever!

[Eldariel]

Well, obviously the same uses as always; poison someone's food with ingested poison, release inhaled poison in a social situation (or e.g. generate a trap that triggers when someone enters or exits or such; useful for when not wanting to be detected), use Contact Poison as Injury-poison except with the option of touch attacking against high Fort opponents or simply mixed with something harmless you accidentally spill on 'em or some such.

Of course, as the levels grow higher, the amount of people you want poison against immune again keeps growing (Heroes' Feast, Druid 9, etc.) as with just about every other non-straightforward approach, so the value drops considerably, especially against people with access to divine magical capabilities through either their own ability or service of someone with said ability.

As such, your original hypothesis regarding the level range was correct though even then, you are better off manufacturing your own poisons if you intend on using them heavily as the costs for effects truly worth adding are prohibitive. Though Druids, Wizards, various manifesters and characters with Vermin Trainer + high Handle Animal all have free ways of generating some, I suppose.


That said, yeah, on high levels the efficiency simply wanes as immunity becomes more available. I, for example, am dumbfounded V isn't under Extended Heroes' Feast effect right now even though Durkon is in the party. Well, that and his apparent lack of solid Contingency (e.g. on Resilient Sphere).

[Optimystik]

Why yes, poison does kill bad wizards. And yes, V is a bad wizard.

Next question!

[ericgrau]

Eh, in core wizards don't really have a defense without allies. Yeah, it is surprising that Durkon didn't prepare something though. Thing is neutralize poison is only a good defense in dungeons, as it is too short of a duration to last all day. Hero's feast really is their only option, and what if it just so happens that Durkon didn't prepare that spell? What if he wants to use his 2nd or 3rd highest spell slot on something that gives a bit more than a measly +1? Such as heal, greater dispel, wind walk, and a thunder domain spell. Whoops, level full. And swapping out any of these could have dire consequences on previous comic events. Making casters psychic is not a fair assumption. PCs and monsters can and do get caught by surprise, maybe even twice in the same session.

[Optimystik]

Eh, in core wizards don't really have a defense without allies.
...
Making casters psychic is not a fair assumption. PCs and monsters can and do get caught by surprise, maybe even twice in the same session.

Contact Other Plane.

"Will at least one entity try to poison me today?"

[Akal Saris]

Well, I'm going to toot my own horn a bit and link The Poison Handbook, by myself. It's about using poisons in 3.5, quite simply.

Secondly, poison immunity isn't actually that widespread. I remember a classic Ftr vs Wizard thread that ended with a fighter "win" because the wizard's laundry list of immunities neglected poisons (this then spawned another 10 pages of "But a REAL WIZARD would have been immune because the perfect player would have remembered poisons!"). And V doesn't have many options to get immunity on her own either, since the campaign doesn't have magic-marts and she's still only level 11.

Extended Heroes' Feast is a good idea, but it takes an hour to eat the food and it's too high level for Durkon to cast anyhow. Especially since he probably needs all his 6th level slots for Wind Walk and Find the Path right now. Also, the party wasn't expecting an ambush, and Xykon and his minions have never shown much interest in using poisons. From a metagame perspective, it makes perfect sense that they're not using Heroes' Feast at the moment. I'm with ericgrau on this one.

And another thing: Contingency (Resilient Sphere) would have gotten V killed in this instance - he'd get hit by the arrow, croak out the trigger (or maybe it would be triggered when he was hit) - and BAM! Suddenly Elan has no way to touch V and cast Neutralize Poison! 10 rounds later and 3d6 more Str damage = dead elf.

On poisons:

For mid-high levels (Maybe ECL 15 or so), how's this: a +1 Githcraft Silver Assassination, Toxic, Virulent Dagger and a Tooth of Leraje (Cost: ~33,000g for the dagger and 20,000g for the Tooth). The tooth gives a 24-hour Greater Magic Weapon (+5), so in total the dagger is automatically weapon finessable, pierces silver DR, has +5 attack/damage, +5 to poison DCs, allows you to use poisons without having Poison Use, each poison applied lasts two hits, and the secondary effect comes in 5 rounds rather than 1 minute.

So in other words, Dragon Bile would be DC 31, 3d6 Str, apply twice before wearing off, and would hit you with another jolt in 5 rounds (and then again from the second hit with poison). So 12d6 Str Damage (average 36!) in 5 rounds, and V probably needs a natural 20 to save against it.

Also, while Black Lotus Poison is a perennial favorite, it's also a low DC of 20, so unless you're using bucketfuls of it the DC is too low past level 12 or so. However:
* DC 44: Megapede Venom (DS)
* DC 34: Svakalor Venom, Greater (Dungeonscape)
* DC 33: Colossal Scorpion Venom)
* DC 33: Greensickness (Dungeonscape)
* DC 28: Colossal Spider Venom
* DC 27: Pit Fiend venom (Dungeonscape)
* DC 27: Colossal Purple Worm Venom (DS)
* DC 26: Dragon Bile (DMG)
* DC 25: Purple Worm Poison (DMG).
Ignoring the 3.0 poisons from BoVD that were updated in Dungeonscape, there are a lot of poisons which a mid-high level mage will almost certainly fail her save against. Greater Svakalor Venom is one of my favorites, since it's a DC 34 paralysis + Con damage. But Greensickness can also be made with Minor Creation, and it's DC 33, easily hitting DC 40-44 with a bit of effort.

A pair of poison-using builds that I'm proud of:

Spoiler

Show

The "I can apply 10 poisons in a round, what can you do?" Duskblade.
Human Duskblade 20
Role: party tank/damage

Feats:
1st hmn: Master of Poisons
1st char: Poison Spell
3rd char: Obtain Familiar
6th char: Improved Familiar
9th char: Smiting Spell
12th char: Arcane Strike
15th char: Arcane Disciple (Artifice domain)
18th char: Open

Use of poisons: at early levels can apply one dose of poison over multiple rounds with chill touch. Then at 3rd can use his familiar's poisons as raw materials, and hit an opponent with 2 doses of poison in 1 round using Channel Spell with a poisoned touch spell and with a poisoned sword. At 6th he can have a combat familiar or one with a stronger poison, who can also deliver a poisonous touch spell for him.

At 9th he gains smiting spell, allowing him to release an extra touch spell in a fight (also carrying poison), and at 13th every opponent hit with the poisoned touch spell from channel spell in a full attack action is poisoned. Later he rounds out the abilities with some common gish picks. With channel spell, smiting spell, a spell storing weapon, a poisoned blade, and quick cast, he can hit 1 opponent with 5 poisons (and 4 touch spells) in a single round, and then apply 1 touch spell and poison to everyone else hit in that round. Talk about going nova! Finally, starting at 15th he can use Minor Creation and Fabricate to make his own poisons magically.

The Bag o' Potions Rogue
Human Rogue 1/Diviner 5/Unseen Seer 9/Alchemist Savant 5
Role: Skills/trap-finder

Feats:
1st hmn: Able Learner
1st char: Master of Poisons
2nd diviner bonus: Quick Draw (UA Fighter feats ACF)
3rd char: Two-weapon Fighting
6th char: Favored in House (Cannith)
6th diviner bonus: Rapid Shot (ACF)
9th char: Poison Spell
12th char: Brew Potion
15th char: Craven
18th char: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
BAB +9, CL 19, SA +4d6+20.
Use of poisons:can use his familiar's poisons as raw materials starting at 2nd level, and later can fabricate poisons himself. Basically, his schtick is throwing vials of poisons and alchemical substances with ranged touch attacks along with sneak attacks. At 20th level with a BAB of +9, he can throw 5 spellvials a round, each one containing a 3rd level spell laced with poison from poison spell as well as a poison or alchemical substance mixed with it, (so 10 poisons and 5 spells) as well as dealing 4d6+20 sneak attack on each hit (10d6+20 with hunter's eye, that ranger spell he gets from Unseen Seer). Plus, he casts as a 19th level wizard, you know - just for kicks.

[ericgrau]

Contact Other Plane.

"Will at least one entity try to poison me today?"

Yo-, what, seriously? That's your Contact-Other-Plane question? Um, yeah,

Making casters psychic is not a fair assumption.

EDIT: Thanks for Poison Handbook link, I'll take a look.

[Eldariel]

Eh, in core wizards don't really have a defense without allies. Yeah, it is surprising that Durkon didn't prepare something though. Thing is neutralize poison is only a good defense in dungeons, as it is too short of a duration to last all day. Hero's feast really is their only option, and what if it just so happens that Durkon didn't prepare that spell? What if he wants to use his 2nd or 3rd highest spell slot on something that gives a bit more than a measly +1? Such as heal, greater dispel, wind walk, and a thunder domain spell. Whoops, level full. And swapping out any of these could have dire consequences on previous comic events. Making casters psychic is not a fair assumption. PCs and monsters can and do get caught by surprise, maybe even twice in the same session.

Well, it's generally good practice to ensure that if an all-day buff covering big, hard checks exists, you have it. Extended Heroes' Feast is an excellent spell for Cleric to either cast (through Rod) or to prepare every day. Between Dragons, huge Vermins, Pit Fiends and such, high-level Fear and Poison have high save DCs and brutal consequences. The reason these abilities can be as strong as they are is really Heroes' Feast; an easy immunity button means they won't TPK the party even if the saves are very difficult to make (Colossal Monstrous Scorpion, CR 12, Poison DC 33 for 1d10 Con anyone? Though its CR is lowered by lack of intellect and flight too; though it still does enjoy a nice vertical reach - or Colossal Monstrous Spider, CR 11, Poison DC 28 for 2d8 Str). On the flipside, not having said immunity might TPK you.

And in Core, Wizards still have Contingency and a level 15 Wizard should have +6 Con item (first priority after Int +6 and CL booster(s), tho obviously outside NPC wealth), +5 Cloak (only 25k) and a wishless Luckblade (next obvious purchase; also provides a reroll). Which at least gives him +16 to the save, which is 55%; not amazing, but with a reroll, the first save shouldn't fail. And as that's all the attacks one can do on a surprise round, that should be enough.

And another thing: Contingency (Resilient Sphere) would have gotten V killed in this instance - he'd get hit by the arrow, croak out the trigger (or maybe it would be triggered when he was hit) - and BAM! Suddenly Elan has no way to touch V and cast Neutralize Poison! 10 rounds later and 3d6 more Str damage = dead elf.

Depends on activation of the Contingency. Also, Str-damage does not kill. Ever. No, not even then.

[taltamir]

I used to think poison has a pretty good sweet spot from levels 4-12, but today's comic shows a very good application against a level 15 foe. My best guess is:

Dragon bile, DC 26, 3d6 strength, 1500 gp
Level 15 wizard fort save: 5 (base) + 3 (con) + 3 (cloak of resitance) = 11; 70% chance of failing the save

my level 13 wizard (level 12 actually due to item crafting) has 14 base con and amulet of +6, so a total con bonus of +5, +5 from cloak of resist +5, and a +2 from loremaster secret (only reason he doesn't get another +2 from rat familiar is because he has an improved familiar... imp to be precise)...
so total con bonus should be higher...

Also... V is level 15, even without +CL items his protection from arrows spell lasts 15 hours (he is shown casting it during the battle for azure city).
Adventure 15 hours, cast rope trick (lasts 15 hours), sleep in rope trick for 8 hours, prepare spells for an hour. 15 + 8 + 1 = 24 hours. He still has 6 more hours worth of rope trick... a lower level wizard will spend more hours in rope trick and less adventuring...

this applies to ALL the all day buffs. Overland flight is also hour/level... and other cool buffs.

so. this is all nice and good for a comics plot, but not effective in a standard DnD game.

[Eldariel]

Also... V is level 15, even without +CL items his protection from arrows spell lasts 15 hours (he is shown casting it during the battle for azure city).

Magic Bolt.

[taltamir]

Magic Bolt.

which magic specifically overcomes protection from arrows?

[sofawall]

which magic specifically overcomes protection from arrows?

Any of them.

[Eldariel]

which magic specifically overcomes protection from arrows?

Quote V: "It would appear to be a Strength-draining poison...on magical bolts, no less." Protection from Arrows grants DR 10/Magic. Yes, it's a lousy spell outside military conflict with lots of low-level mooks of potential relevance around.

[Claudius Maximus]

Str-damage does not kill. Ever. No, not even then.

Shadows can kill with strength damage.

[Eldariel]

Shadows can kill with strength damage.

Oh. Buggernation.

[taltamir]

Shadows can kill with strength damage.

Thats the shadow's supernatural ability... not the str damage...
also, thanks for the correction, I forgot about it being /magic for protection from arrows

tsk... V must have forgotten to buff up his fort saves.

[Eldariel]

Thats the shadow's supernatural ability... not the str damage...

He was correcting my "Str damage can't kill ever"-statement. Turns out using "ever" in the context of D&D is a bad idea. Who knew.

[taltamir]

He was correcting my "Str damage can't kill ever"-statement. Turns out using "ever" in the context of D&D is a bad idea. Who knew.

well... in the context of DnD "always" doesn't mean always and so on (this is official actually... an alignment of "always" actually means usually... its right there in the MM)

[Lord Vukodlak]

One real trick with neutralize poison is to cast it on the creature that delivers poison not on the victim. Though when humanoids are applying it to weapons it isn't much good.

Looking at that arrows trajectory, I think it may have missed Elan anyway.

[Akal Saris]

Contact Other Plane.

"Will at least one entity try to poison me today?"

This is one of those smart-alecky "A wizard can do anything!!" replies that really irritates me.

OK, so let's say V casts Contact Other Plane.

V gets about 7 questions in a casting, and I don't think that's going to be on the list. "Where is the person who gets groceries for the illusionist?" and "Has Xykon found his phylactery yet?" is more likely. On a more personal note, "Are my mate and children in danger?" is another question she probably asks every time.

Even if she used multiple castings and eventually asked that specific question, unlikely given that she -again- needs to use spell slots for more critical things like Teleport, there's a 12% chance to 66% chance that the casting will go wrong or have no answer. The answer might be blocked by specific things as well: the Goblin's deity, Tiamat (quite likely, given that it's a high level lizardman assassin), or the homebrewed epic Cloister spell all could easily prevent the divination from working properly. From a character standpoint, V probably doesn't prepare many divinations, given how useless they proved while she was trying to contact Haley and Elan.

And each casting has a chance of hitting her with a variant Feeblemind for a week to 5 weeks - she probably only fails the roll on a 1, but if she casts the spell 20 times - lets say she's paranoid and casts it twice a day, that means in 10 days - then she'll fail the check eventually. Then she's out of commission for a LONG time, and since a deity did it directly, there's probably nothing that mortal magic can really do to help her in that time period.

So no, Contact Other Plane does not make V invincible. It could even seriously hinder the party by sending them the wrong way or by knocking V out of commission, especially when he needs slots for Teleport or whatever.

Responding to other stuff:
-V is listed as level 14 in the class and level geekery thread. As an elf and a poor player, her con is under 12 and we don't know what her cloak gives (probably +3). So her fort save is almost assuredly horrible. As I mentioned, the game doesn't have Magic-Marts, only what the PCs find - so has a Headband +4, and apparently no +Con items. They're all undergeared for their level, in part because they've spent so many resources on the resistance fight, losing items in prisons and the like, and on resurrecting Roy.

-Yeah, my bad on str damage. To be fair, the only character I play who uses strength damage poison is a Master of Shrouds, who kills things with poisons and shadows. Point is, Resilient Sphere only makes the situation worse sometimes.

[Lord Vukodlak]

As I mentioned, the game doesn't have Magic-Marts, only what the PCs find - so has a Headband +4, and apparently no +Con items. They're all undergeared for their level, in part because they've spent so many resources on the resistance fight, losing items in prisons and the like, and on resurrecting Roy.

Oh really it doesn't have magic marts, must I really poor back through the pages and show you when they've gone magic item shopping?

[Optimystik]

Yo-, what, seriously? That's your Contact-Other-Plane question? Um, yeah,

Yes, seriously. If anti-poison spell slots are at a premium as you proposed (they aren't really, if you take the time to set up a Contingency), isn't it responsible to find out if you'll be needing them that day?

Speaking of Contingency, that's another useful tactic for the non-brain damaged wizard. From Complete Arcane:

"Triggers for contingent spells are usually events that happen to the bearer of the spell, and can include death, contracting disease, exposure to a breath weapon or to energy damage, falling, exposure to poison, exposure to a dangerous environment (trapped by fire, plunged underwater, and so forth), succumbing to sleep or fear effects, gaining negative levels, or being rendered helpless, deafened, or blinded."

OK, so let's say V casts Contact Other Plane.

I didn't bother reading the rest of your rant. Where did I say Vaarsuvius would be casting this spell?

[Akal Saris]

First off, I just updated my handbook a few minutes ago, to add a bunch of stuff that had sort of piled up on my to-do list. Huzzah for that

Oh really it doesn't have magic marts, must I really poor back through the pages and show you when they've gone magic item shopping?

Alright, I'll clarify: it has crappy magic-marts that sell under priced potions of Heroism Seriously though, feel free to list the pages where they go magic item shopping, they're usually pretty funny.

Optimystik: Because your previous post was about V?

Short, non-V related version of the rant: Contact Other Plane has a chance of screwing up on each question, might incapacitate the caster for several weeks, and powerful spells and individuals can also mess it up. Use it sparingly and with a grain of salt, as it were. It's not the i-win button everybody seems to assume it is.

[taltamir]

can a person with "overland flight" on who has been reduced to 0 str still fly?

[Optimystik]

Optimystik: Because your previous post was about V?

So? I don't recall him knowing Contact Other Plane, and I doubt that spell would be useful in OotS with the gods as idiotic as they are. The OP was asking about poisoning wizards in general, not about poisoning Vaarsuvius.

Short, non-V related version of the rant: Contact Other Plane has a chance of screwing up on each question, might incapacitate the caster for several weeks, and powerful spells and individuals can also mess it up. Use it sparingly and with a grain of salt, as it were. It's not the i-win button everybody seems to assume it is.

Obviously not, but I'll take a 70-84% chance over flipping a coin any day.

[Saph]

Short, non-V related version of the rant: Contact Other Plane has a chance of screwing up on each question, might incapacitate the caster for several weeks, and powerful spells and individuals can also mess it up. Use it sparingly and with a grain of salt, as it were. It's not the i-win button everybody seems to assume it is.

Hindsight is 20/20. Whenever something like this happens in the comic, we invariably get a few weeks worth of people claiming "Well of course, any REAL wizard would be prepared for this situation" (because as we know, tabletop gamers never make a mistake or fail to prepare for a possible danger). This is where the forum joke about Schrodinger's Wizard comes from.

[Boci]

Hindsight is 20/20. Whenever something like this happens in the comic, we invariably get a few weeks worth of people claiming "Well of course, any REAL wizard would be prepared for this situation" (because as we know, tabletop gamers never make a mistake or fail to prepare for a possible danger). This is where the forum joke about Schrodinger's Wizard comes from.

It is undeniable that gamers will frequently grant perfect foresight to any wizard PC, but the fact that a wizard can solve almost any problem with X spells still counts for something, even if they may not always have it. The fighter does not have class features which allow it to neutralize practically any threat with minimal effort.

Secondly, poison immunity isn't actually that widespread.

But even if the creature isn't immune, its a scalling fortitude save versus the posion's static one. How much do the DC: 44 poisons you listed cost?

Also, you are aware you still poison yourself on a natural 1 when attacking? Posion use only allows you to put venom on a blade without risk, no mention of wielding it as far as I recall.

I remember a classic Ftr vs Wizard thread that ended with a fighter "win" because the wizard's laundry list of immunities neglected poisons (this then spawned another 10 pages of "But a REAL WIZARD would have been immune because the perfect player would have remembered poisons!").

The 20th level fighter build that used poisons? Yeah, would it have been too much effort to at least try and make it look like his build was not specifically tailored towards the single arena fight? (I am refering to the halfling thrower build that chucked poisoned daggers I saw in the fighter versus wizards threads, if he was a normal fighter who just happened to purchase a batch of poison then that is perfectly acceptable tactics).

[Gorbash]

Dragon bile, DC 26, 3d6 strength, 1500 gp
Level 15 wizard fort save: 5 (base) + 3 (con) + 3 (cloak of resitance) = 11; 70% chance of failing the save

More realistic look would be: 5 (base) + 5 (con) + 2 (familiar) + 6 (superior resistance) = 18

And that's just the average. My 15th lvl Wizard has Fort +22. And thanks to Elemental Body is immune to poison anyways.

[sofawall]

More realistic look would be: 5 (base) + 5 (con) + 2 (familiar) + 6 (superior resistance) = 18

1: Why would you take a fort granting familiar instead of a hummingbird, raven or Imp?
2: That was describing V, not Wizardy McWizardton.