Tips for a Silver Dragon Disciple <3.5>

[LichPrinceAlim]

Hey Y'all! I'm currently running a

Silverbrow Human
Dragonblooded Sorcerer 2/Human Paragon 3/Silver Dragon Disciple 7

and I need a good 4th level spell choice (no polymorphs or "cheap spells" that my very conservative DM would ban, like Burning Blood)

and the reason for no Polymorph is I have Dragon Polymorph as a 5th level spell slot.

and how I am a "full" caster works like this:

I took Practiced Spellcaster, to negate the lost caster levels from Human Paragon and Dragon Disciple, then will take the Loredrake sovereign (DM said as long as I'm a "child" of a true dragon, I can take it), take Half-Dragon Paragon, and two levels in something else (Probably end with sorcerer). It's headed to Epic tier, so I want to know how I can get the most "bang for my buck" with this build.

and I need a feat for 12th level. Most (if not all) of my feats from 1st level were Dragon Heritage Feats, a few small feats, and thats it...

Thanks to everyone who will help me in my endeavor...

[Eldariel]

You using PF Dragon Disciple? Still not amazing, but at least it doesn't completely annihilate your spellcasting capabilities. It's worth noting that Practiced Spellcaster doesn't grant spellcasting levels, which makes it kinda meh if you don't have lots of spells with level-dependent variables. But yeah.

4th level has strong options:
- Ruin Delver's Fortune
- Wings of Flurry
- Orbs
- Celerity
- Assay Spell Resistance
- Solid Fog
- Dimension Door
- Enervation
- Resilient Sphere
- Confusion
- Greater Mirror Image
- Heart of Earth
- Wings of Air, Greater
- Resistance, Greater

And meh on.

[LichPrinceAlim]

You using PF Dragon Disciple? Still not amazing, but at least it doesn't completely annihilate your spellcasting capabilities. It's worth noting that Practiced Spellcaster doesn't grant spellcasting levels, which makes it kinda meh if you don't have lots of spells with level-dependent variables. But yeah.

4th level has strong options:
- Ruin Delver's Fortune
- Wings of Flurry
- Orbs
- Celerity
- Assay Spell Resistance
- Solid Fog
- Dimension Door
- Enervation
- Resilient Sphere
- Confusion
- Greater Mirror Image
- Heart of Earth
- Wings of Air, Greater
- Resistance, Greater

And meh on.

we're using a hybridized version between PF and T&B. However, DM is giving me wings already, and replacing 9th level wings for another +2 STR

So, no big evoke spells or Necromancy?

[Eldariel]

So, no big evoke spells or Necromancy?

Enervation and Wings of Flurry are both rather good spells from just those schools.

[LichPrinceAlim]

Enervation and Wings of Flurry are both rather good spells from just those schools.

why WoF and Enervation (remember, no acess to SRD)

Why not something that is Cold Damage, considering with 2 feats, I gain a +2 CL & DC on cold spells

[AtwasAwamps]

why WoF and Enervation (remember, no acess to SRD)

Why not something that is Cold Damage, considering with 2 feats, I gain a +2 CL & DC on cold spells

Enervation is a fantastically effective way to rip levels off of your opponents when used correctly.

Wings of Flurry is a fantastic AoE spell designed specifically for dragon-oriented sorcerors. And its just awesome. Plenty of damage, if I recall correctly, and untyped spell damage.

Cold Damage is...meh.

[Eldariel]

why WoF and Enervation (remember, no acess to SRD)

Why not something that is Cold Damage, considering with 2 feats, I gain a +2 CL & DC on cold spells

Wings of Flurry is area effect untyped damage (it's in Races of the Dragon). That alone is pretty amazing. Then there's save for ½, but on a failed save they are Dazed for a round. So not only does it deal damage, it stops people from getting back up. Oh, and there's no caster level cap in the damage. Oh, and did I remember to mention you gain +1 CL just from having Dragonblood? It's also Sorcerer-only, which alone is a good reason to pick up. It's...amazing.

And Enervation? NO SAVE 1d4 negative levels. Apply Split Ray; that's 6th level slot for 2d4 negative levels (Maximize and Empower with Rods to taste). That just plain kills many things no save and hugely debuffs anything else so they aren't much of a danger either. So...yeah. Cold spells aren't very good; pick up Energy Substitution: Cold and use Orb of Fire [SC] if that's what you want. It has no-save CLd6 damage up to 15d6 and then a save vs. Daze. In other words, you get the damage anyways and you may screw them of their next action as a bonus.

[Sinfire Titan]

Wings of Flurry is area effect untyped damage (it's in Races of the Dragon). That alone is pretty amazing. Then there's save for ½, but on a failed save they are Dazed for a round. So not only does it deal damage, it stops people from getting back up. Oh, and there's no caster level cap in the damage. Oh, and did I remember to mention you gain +1 CL just from having Dragonblood? It's also Sorcerer-only, which alone is a good reason to pick up. It's...amazing.

And Enervation? NO SAVE 1d4 negative levels. Apply Split Ray; that's 6th level slot for 2d4 negative levels (Maximize and Empower with Rods to taste). That just plain kills many things no save and hugely debuffs anything else so they aren't much of a danger either. So...yeah. Cold spells aren't very good; pick up Energy Substitution: Cold and use Orb of Fire [SC] if that's what you want. It has no-save CLd6 damage up to 15d6 and then a save vs. Daze. In other words, you get the damage anyways and you may screw them of their next action as a bonus.

You're forgetting how many CLs he's lost. Seriously, anything that allows SR is going to be worthless to him.

[Eldariel]

You're forgetting how many CLs he's lost. Seriously, anything that allows SR is going to be worthless to him.

I figured he had HD in CL from Practiced Spellcaster + PF DD; that means he'll lose 4 levels of casting which PS gives back.

[Sinfire Titan]

I figured he had HD in CL from Practiced Spellcaster + PF DD; that means he'll lose 4 levels of casting which PS gives back.

True. But he's taking Half-Dragon Paragon.

[Eldariel]

True. But he's taking Half-Dragon Paragon.

Well, thanks to Sorcerous Blood, that again doesn't lose him any CLs; it just means he's a billion spell levels behind and tossing around high CL cantrips when others are stopping time. Feels Wings of Flurry is a perfect spell in such a scenario.

[Saph]

Wings of Flurry is area effect untyped damage (it's in Races of the Dragon). That alone is pretty amazing. Then there's save for ½, but on a failed save they are Dazed for a round. So not only does it deal damage, it stops people from getting back up. Oh, and there's no caster level cap in the damage. Oh, and did I remember to mention you gain +1 CL just from having Dragonblood? It's also Sorcerer-only, which alone is a good reason to pick up. It's...amazing.

Don't forget the fact that it's a [Force] effect! Perfect for destoying groups of Shadows or similar.

[Eldariel]

Don't forget the fact that it's a [Force] effect! Perfect for destoying groups of Shadows or similar.

Oh yeah, sorry. I totally forgot the fact that it's even better than that

[LichPrinceAlim]

Enervation then.

I just need a feat for LV12 and I'm kosher

[LichPrinceAlim]

Is Dragon Familair a worthwhile feat, considering the other mage (a lesser drow wizard/fire mage) has a Hellfire Wyrmling for his familiar.

If it is, should I pick a dragon without the same breath weapon (to balance my BW)

and if not, plz suggest me a worthy feat...

[nedz]

The usual spell caster feats I would guess:

Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration
Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus - if most of your offensive spells, which offer a save, are (or will be) in the same school. (if not : why not)
And some Metamagic to go.

Reserve Feats (to up your CL - forget about those little things) (Might be a tad early for this)

Or are you looking at being a Gish ?
In which case your feat selection would look very different.

You also might want to consider some glying feats

[nedz]

Some 4th level spells to consider - from the SC

Blinding Breath - if your breath wpn is fire or elec then the're all blind if they fail.

Dragon Breath - good spell for a sorceror because it gives variety. You get a choice of 8 different breath weapons. The areas are small though and the damage caps are 10d6. I know you already have a breath weapon but it would be good to change it once in a while - or have a choice of 2. The rules seem to be silent on what happens if you cast this but already have a breath weapon; so you probably need to talk with your DM on this. This would be excellent to share with your familier also.

[LichPrinceAlim]

Some 4th level spells to consider - from the SC

Blinding Breath - if your breath wpn is fire or elec then the're all blind if they fail.

Dragon Breath - good spell for a sorceror because it gives variety. You get a choice of 8 different breath weapons. The areas are small though and the damage caps are 10d6. I know you already have a breath weapon but it would be good to change it once in a while - or have a choice of 2. The rules seem to be silent on what happens if you cast this but already have a breath weapon; so you probably need to talk with your DM on this. This would be excellent to share with your familier also.

okay. I already have a reserve feat (Winter's Grasp) and a breath weapon that deals decent damage (cold)

so I thought having a good familiar (current one is a fox) would be icing on the cake

[strider24seven]

IMO the best familiars are from the Improved Familiar feat. The mephits are generally the best. Since you seem very silver-oriented, I would steer away from the Silver Wyrmling familiar, as the Gold Wyrmling is the only one worth taking.

On another note, +1 for Enervation. If you can land ranged touch attacks at all, i.e. you can, the ability to cripple your opponents is absolutely vicious. Split Ray, Twin Spell, Empower Spell, Maximize Spell all increase the viciousness.

Just a tip: Don't try to play a decent caster with Dragon Disciple. It won't work. You just don't have the spell levels to keep up. Try to play a melee character with some arcane back-up. Unlike others, though, you don't have to focus on no-save spells. You can actually use some of the more brutal spells of arcane shenanigans.

And Loredrake on a "conservative" DM? HAHAHAHAHAHA! That's great. At least you're not a Kobold. It does help with your gimped spell-levels, though.

[LichPrinceAlim]

IMO the best familiars are from the Improved Familiar feat. The mephits are generally the best. Since you seem very silver-oriented, I would steer away from the Silver Wyrmling familiar, as the Gold Wyrmling is the only one worth taking.

On another note, +1 for Enervation. If you can land ranged touch attacks at all, i.e. you can, the ability to cripple your opponents is absolutely vicious. Split Ray, Twin Spell, Empower Spell, Maximize Spell all increase the viciousness.

Just a tip: Don't try to play a decent caster with Dragon Disciple. It won't work. You just don't have the spell levels to keep up. Try to play a melee character with some arcane back-up. Unlike others, though, you don't have to focus on no-save spells. You can actually use some of the more brutal spells of arcane shenanigans.

And Loredrake on a "conservative" DM? HAHAHAHAHAHA! That's great. At least you're not a Kobold. It does help with your gimped spell-levels, though.

I have Practiced Spellcaster and Loredrake to give me full casting (by our old DM's ruling) I actually am 2 ahead, so I could spare 2 martial levels, but I like Frost Mage, something I've never gotten to use.

Also considering Lord of Utterdark as a metamagic, since we've fought literally ONE undead

[strider24seven]

So your DM houseruled that Practiced Spellcaster gives spells/level too?
Wow... can I borrow your DM?

Anyway, then you can certainly play a fullcaster. And own.

Btw, how can you be a "child of a true dragon" and not be a Half-Dragon? Also if you're not a Half-Dragon, you can't be a Loredrake. I assume you're waiting for Dragon Apotheosis "capstone," which, RAW, disqualifies you for Dragon Disciple. AND your dragon-ness is not inherited, but acquired, so you can't get Loredrake by your DM's ruling. But I'm just nitpicking here. It actually sounds like a really fun character.

[LichPrinceAlim]

So your DM houseruled that Practiced Spellcaster gives spells/level too?
Wow... can I borrow your DM?

Anyway, then you can certainly play a fullcaster. And own.

Btw, how can you be a "child of a true dragon" and not be a Half-Dragon? Also if you're not a Half-Dragon, you can't be a Loredrake. I assume you're waiting for Dragon Apotheosis "capstone," which, RAW, disqualifies you for Dragon Disciple. But I'm just nitpicking here. It actually sounds like a really fun character.

DM said RAMS (Rules as Makes Sense), and I'm taking Loredrake at 10th level in Dragon Disciple. and Practiced Spellcaster fills the lost slots as if you were of the class you started with in that. (Ie: a Wizard 3/Ur Priest 2 wit Practiced Spellcaster in both Wizard and Ur Priest are "5th Level" casters in both)

[strider24seven]

(Ie: a Wizard 3/Ur Priest 2 wit Practiced Spellcaster in both Wizard and Ur Priest are "5th Level" casters in both)

EEK!
If one feat does that...
As if Ur-Priests need more encouragement for theurge-ness.

That just begs the use of the "cheese golem" race.

[LichPrinceAlim]

EEK!
If one feat does that...
As if Ur-Priests need more encouragement for theurge-ness.

That just begs the use of the "cheese golem" race.

He banned Ur Priest and Beholder Mage, but not Divine Crusader...

and we have 2 mages because of this, one fire and one ice

[strider24seven]

You should be the mage that makes the peoples falls down.

[LichPrinceAlim]

You should be the mage that makes the peoples falls down.

lol. Like with a Trip Poor Basterd spell...

[strider24seven]

Do your really need a spell?
Use your abominably high strength to bullrush them off a cliff!
Or take 2 levels of Dungeoncrasher Fighter and bullrush them into a wall! Or your tower shield.
Or take 2 levels of Dungeoncrasher Fighter and the Shock Trooper feat and bullrush them into each other, treating each other as walls, and then trip them!

[LichPrinceAlim]

Do your really need a spell?
Use your abominably high strength to bullrush them off a cliff!
Or take 2 levels of Dungeoncrasher Fighter and bullrush them into a wall! Or your tower shield.
Or take 2 levels of Dungeoncrasher Fighter and the Shock Trooper feat and bullrush them into each other, treating each other as walls, and then trip them!

I'm wearing no armor and carrying a Boat Oar for a weapon. I'm just a spellcaster who can hit back

[strider24seven]

I'm wearing no armor and carrying a Boat Oar for a weapon. I'm just a spellcaster who can hit back

So hit them back harder. Does your oar have reach?

[LichPrinceAlim]

So hit them back harder. Does your oar have reach?

no. its like a fricken flat oar