Is this fixable, and is it worth the effort? [DM advice wanted]

[Rolaran]

Hello!

Once again I call on the more experienced DMs of this forum for advice. I have a player who's got me on the end of my rope. But first, some background info.

The person in question has been my buddy since we were in junior high. He was in the first D&D campaign I ran, and nearly every campaign I've run since. He's a nice guy, and I enjoy hanging out with him. Keep that in mind; whatever else happens, I want to keep him as a friend. However, I've recently started a new campaign, and his behavior thus far... has left something to be desired.

1. He rarely shows up, and never on time. So far he's gone through just about every possible variation of this. Showing up an hour late? Check. Not showing up at all, no explanation given? Check. Calling an hour before game time to say he's not coming? Check. I understand schedules and commitments and whatnot (I mean, other players have missed the occasional game too), but we have more game time when he's not there than when he is. On a related note...

2. He's lagging behind the group. Because he's never around, he's 2 or 3 levels below everyone else, and they are also better equipped and have more money. I know this is partly my job as a DM, but it's very difficult to get XP and treasure to a character with the reliability of Schrodinger's cat. I've been trying to solve it by running a couple of "side missions" for him solo, but that leads into the next issue...

3. He's chewing up my resources. There's only so much time I can spend on D&D, and more and more of it is currently being spent trying to manage him and his character. I lose time outside of the game trying to plan things so they make sense whether or not he's there, I lose time in game making excuses for him to reappear after suddenly vanishing again, I lose time I could spend on other things if I run side missions, and I lose sanity trying to keep the party together with him at least nominally in it. Speaking of which...

4. He wants to do his own thing. The basic plot of the (4th ed) campaign is that the party is investigating a possible treason plot after uncovering a multinational thief's guild. Enter his character, a tiefling who belongs to a secret society which is trying to help the race cast off its history of barbarism and cruelty etc. etc. Kind of a cool idea, and I don't even mind the Drizzt undertones that much, but the way he's playing it, the only interest he has in the main plot is whether or not it involves any tieflings. If there are tieflings involved, he immediately wants the spotlight, if there aren't, he doesn't care what's going on. And when he gets the spotlight...

5. He's completely out of tone. The other players play more or less logically- trying to avoid picking fights they can't win, investigating behind the scenes and cutting deals rather than breaking down the door and running in swords swinging. This guy does whatever comes into his head, logic be damned. Case in point: he tried to muscle his way into a crime scene, past the town guard. The party has been working with the town guard pretty closely, as they realize that the town guard are the movers and shakers in this city. This guy was intentionally flippant, condescending, and generally rude to them, which landed the party in a whole heap of trouble. It's gotten to the point where all the other players groan every time he opens his mouth, which he doesn't notice because...

6. He doesn't pick up on hints (subtle or otherwise). Again, an example: after the party killed a tiefling who had headed an assassin's guild, he thought it would show how "badass" he was if he collected said tiefling's entrails and carried them with him in a burlap sack. The following reactions occurred: the paladin decried it in-game as disgusting, the rest of the party complained in-game that it was going to get them into trouble, the players pointed out out-of-game the logistical difficulties of a sack full of tiefling innards, I weighed in as DM saying that it was completely ridiculous, and (a few sessions later when she found out) the NPC who is his "boss" officially reprimanded him, confiscated the entrails and ordered him not to do anything of the sort again. He is still maintaining that it was a good idea. *facepalm*

So, there's the problems. Now, I'm debating whether to ask him to please leave the group, or to try and help him fix these issues. Unfortunately, I'm not very experienced dealing with these kinds of things, and I can't tell which ones are fixable and which ones aren't. So, mighty Playgrounders, which problems can be dealt with, and which are here to stay? And... is it worth the effort, or should he be given the boot?

[Theodoxus]

I guess my first (only?) question would be - is this new behavior or has he always acted this way since Junior High?

If it's new, try to figure out what triggered it - if necessary bring up old campaigns and compare them: "remember that one game when you..." didn't act like a jerk/power hog/etc and cared about the game and the players? Might shed light on what's going on.

If it's just the way he is... what's changed with you that you can no longer handle it? Sometimes it just boils down to him being on your last nerve, and I totally understand that - but sometimes it's just a matter of getting things back in perspective for yourself. He's your friend - do you need to take some time off from being around him? Maybe try some other activity that's not associated with gaming (I know, that's like, impossible! )

Anyway - having a bit more background will help generate solutions. Best of luck!

Theo

[NMBLNG]

Perhaps have him play a cameo-NPC?

You'd have to talk to him some time before the next game, but you could have him RP various characters / monsters for you. It may take focus off of his PC, but can still be involved when he shows up. I guess the best word is 'Assistant DM'.

[jiriku]

Since he is your friend and you do not want to alienate him, you really have no means of solving this problem. Instead, your best route is to find ways to manage it and to make his actions be his problem rather than yours.

I have played with people who exhibited some of your friend's personality quirks. Here's how my DMs have responded to these problem players.

Option A. The DM politely tells his friend that the game is only for committed players and that the friend is no longer invited.

Option B. The DM adopts the following tactics to manage the situation.

1. Inflexible start time and no in-game update only. The game started when it started, and if someone flaked out and showed up late, that person missed game time. There was no waiting around or delaying the start time for the late player to arrive, even if he said he'd be there in "just 15 minutes". Further, the late arriver was not permitted social time or even an update on the events that he'd missed. He was required to sit quietly, prepare his sheet, dice, and books, and join the game when ready. He was not permitted to stop the game for 20 minutes when he arrived to greets everyone and tells amusing anecdotes about the movie he watched and the weird thing his girlfriend was nagging him about.

2. The low-level player stayed low-level. If he was ineffective and died a lot, too bad. In addition, the DM built all encounters with the assumption that the flaky player would not be there or would not contribute meaningfully.

3. No side missions, no make-up days. Flaky players were required to leave their character sheets with the DM, who gave the character to a random player in attendance to use as a meatshield and servant. Thus, there were no unexplained absences or somesuch. Alternately, the in-game explanation simply became that the character was as unreliable as the player and simply failed to show up (or wandered off on his own agenda) at critical times.

4. Gentle solution for your campaign: the multi-national treason is being executed by a secret cabal of tieflings who want to thrust their race into barbarism and cruelty. Harsh solution sometimes used: problem players do not get their backstory worked into the plot, ever.

5. NPCs wore verisimilitude blinders (VSBs). Anyone wearing a VSB didn't react when a poorly-run character did something completely outrageous. It was as if the action was done OOC to them: they didn't perceive obvious violations of gameworld integrity, and simply continued to interact as normal with characters who were role-played consistently with the world. Sometimes the DM would find the repeated disruptions and take a more ruthless approach. Whenever the flaky player broke realism with shocking behavior, NPCs arbitratily removed him from the game as an act of DM fiat. No dice-rolling, no saving throws. Paladins would arrive and arrest the character, hauling him off to an inescapable prison, or an inevitable would teleport in and grab the character, then plane-shift out and take him off to receive justice, or whatever. The player didn't receive a die roll to avoid this, it was just "OK, you fell off the edge of the map. Make a new character."

6. With the problem cases, the DM stopped giving hints or being subtle. He simply punished inappropriate behavior with a loss of screen time (via the above-mentioned ignoring and hauling-off).

Option C. The Way That Does Not Work. Others may recommend that you talk to the friend and ask him to change his behavior. I recommend against it: experience has shown that this doesn't accomplish the needed result. Flakiness and a lack of consideration for others are deeply-rooted personality traits, and growing out of them takes maturity, self-discipline, and a desire to become a better person. You can't impart those qualities through a brief conversation.

[Kobold-Bard]

Not got any DM advice, sorry. Maybe he's losing interest in RPG's in general. It happens after all. Perhaps this is how he keeps himself involved in your shared past time (and by extention this part of your friendship), but he doesn't take it seriously because he's not really interested anymore.

Of course I don't have many friends either so this might be gibberish.

[Shadowbane]

Since he is your friend and you do not want to alienate him, you really have no means of solving this problem. Instead, your best route is to find ways to manage it and to make his actions be his problem rather than yours.

I have played with people who exhibited some of your friend's personality quirks. Here's how my DMs have responded to these problem players.

Option A. The DM politely tells his friend that the game is only for committed players and that the friend is no longer invited.

Option B. The DM adopts the following tactics to manage the situation.

1. Inflexible start time and no in-game update only. The game started when it started, and if someone flaked out and showed up late, that person missed game time. There was no waiting around or delaying the start time for the late player to arrive, even if he said he'd be there in "just 15 minutes". Further, the late arriver was not permitted social time or even an update on the events that he'd missed. He was required to sit quietly, prepare his sheet, dice, and books, and join the game when ready. He was not permitted to stop the game for 20 minutes when he arrived to greets everyone and tells amusing anecdotes about the movie he watched and the weird thing his girlfriend was nagging him about.

2. The low-level player stayed low-level. If he was ineffective and died a lot, too bad. In addition, the DM built all encounters with the assumption that the flaky player would not be there or would not contribute meaningfully.

3. No side missions, no make-up days. Flaky players were required to leave their character sheets with the DM, who gave the character to a random player in attendance to use as a meatshield and servant. Thus, there were no unexplained absences or somesuch. Alternately, the in-game explanation simply became that the character was as unreliable as the player and simply failed to show up (or wandered off on his own agenda) at critical times.

4. Gentle solution for your campaign: the multi-national treason is being executed by a secret cabal of tieflings who want to thrust their race into barbarism and cruelty. Harsh solution sometimes used: problem players do not get their backstory worked into the plot, ever.

5. NPCs wore verisimilitude blinders (VSBs). Anyone wearing a VSB didn't react when a poorly-run character did something completely outrageous. It was as if the action was done OOC to them: they didn't perceive obvious violations of gameworld integrity, and simply continued to interact as normal with characters who were role-played consistently with the world. Sometimes the DM would find the repeated disruptions and take a more ruthless approach. Whenever the flaky player broke realism with shocking behavior, NPCs arbitratily removed him from the game as an act of DM fiat. No dice-rolling, no saving throws. Paladins would arrive and arrest the character, hauling him off to an inescapable prison, or an inevitable would teleport in and grab the character, then plane-shift out and take him off to receive justice, or whatever. The player didn't receive a die roll to avoid this, it was just "OK, you fell off the edge of the map. Make a new character."

6. With the problem cases, the DM stopped giving hints or being subtle. He simply punished inappropriate behavior with a loss of screen time (via the above-mentioned ignoring and hauling-off).

Option C. The Way That Does Not Work. Others may recommend that you talk to the friend and ask him to change his behavior. I recommend against it: experience has shown that this does accomplish the needed result. Flakiness and a lack of consideration for others are deeply-rooted personality traits, and growing out of them takes maturity, self-discipline, and a desire to become a better person. You can't impart those qualities through a brief conversation.

I gotta say, I hate B. I wouldn't ever want to be a DM like that.

That said, what you say about C is true. It doesn't really work. A would be my first choice.

[IonDragon]

While of the above options "A" is the most effective, it doesn't really fix the problem. OP said he wanted to keep the friend and is seeking ways to keep him in the group.

That said, it sounds like you've gone above and beyond to make accommodations for this friend. Just let him know how much extra work he is and let him know you're not sure you're going to be able to keep it up. Then, stop doing it. By letting him show up late with no consequences you're not really helping the situation. I would then plan as if he isn't there, as in "B" above. Assume his character is a drunkard or some such. If the player is not OK with that, ask him to then explain why his character has so much absentee time. I would not continue to bend over backwards for someone who's not even going to take the time to show up.

[Paulus]

~~

1. This speaks to me as a lack of interest in the game, perhaps compounded by later problems which seem to support this. If it just isn't important to him, he won't make the effort.

2. This is only natural, but more a symptom of the porblem which compounds his lack of interest when he DOES show up because he isn't as effective as the others and has less fun to boot. Not your fault but still certainly an aspect of it.

3. Resource management is a problem here, but I think a solution can happen when I will speak on in a bit.

4. He wants to do his own thing. If there are tieflings involved, he immediately wants the spotlight, if there aren't, he doesn't care what's going on. And when he gets the spotlight... Simply more support in my theory of disinterest.

5. He's completely out of tone. The other players play more or less logically- trying to avoid picking fights they can't win, investigating behind the scenes and cutting deals rather than breaking down the door and running in swords swinging. This guy does whatever comes into his head, logic be damned.

Well not everybody plays the same way. Obviously he wishes to change his playstyle a bit to freshen things up and play his way in a new way. Your example isn't that disruptive honestly. The same could happen to ANY barbarian, anyone who likes to intimidate, anyone who likes trophies, or anyone who likes to do cool things they think should be feared. You should not backlash at them for this simply because it isn't logical or like anyone else. It's a game. You get to do thing like that because you can. You should support this, but at levels you can handle. But if your point is that he isn't a barbarian, what, you've never seen a loose cannon cop before?

Same goes for the gut bag. If the party disagrees, awesome, that means they fear him a bit more. His leader is freaked out? Awesome, make the leader keep his 'special qualities' in mind, maybe even joking "I like a guy with guts." so he can be assigned special missions that keep him interested in the plot.

Not everyone will want to do what the majority does, but it sounds or seems like the whole party cares not what he thinks or does, and have already removed him from the group.

6. He doesn't pick up on hints (subtle or otherwise). Then perhaps it is time you and the group stopped trying to change him and maybe made a little more room for his own freedom. I'm not saying EVERYONE should bow to his whims, but let him BREATHE. For example, he is a member of the party. If he pushes past the guards let the party make excuses for him, but back him up. They should trust him, he wants to get to justice, he is blunt, he is forceful. Let the party help him get by the guards or watch his back. The story is ABOUT the players, they should be able to do and go anywhere within reason. Obviously is they are meant to get by the guards, then let them by, if they aren't, them by but with a harsh reprimand from the leader who trusts the players or lets them help but keeps in mind if they mess anything up they can't get by again period. In which the party should know this and keep him back themselves. Supportivly. "Come on, let's go, it clear we aren't wanted here." so they leave, or plan to try and get in another way.

The party should learn to utilize his traits. "Listen,talk to us or this guy? you see him? yeah... he carries around a bag of guts. He has a thing for trophies. Yeah, I heard him earlier complimenting you on some of your... features." kind of thing. The point is to get him interested again, to see which way he wants to go with his character and encourage his participation.

Lots of groups have had to cater to lots of styles. Kick in the door and slay the foe being a CLEAR arhitype. It's nothing new. Whereas, thinking about asking him to leave when you haven't sat him down and talked with him is a bigger mistake.

I wholly advocate talking to him. You're his friend right? Well sit down and see what is up. SEE if he lacks interest of if he has other problems. Friendship is more important then D&D you know. Find out whats going on in his life, and then, if nothing is, bring up this D&D stuff I talked about. Ask him if this is true or if he'd like more of what. You know, communicate!

and if it does turn out to be deep seated personality problems, sure, let him go so he has free time to deal with them. But always make it clear he come back if he likes when he feels like playing with the team again, and always make clear that you'll be his friend no matter what he does.

After that, ball is in his court, he is still your friend, and options are still open. Hey it's just a game after all, no bid deal.

[Kaun]

Yeah C. never seems to end up they way you want it to.

Question; Does he activly ask when the next session will be?

If he doesn't ask then simpily dont tell him.

I would say as previously mentioned he may just be loosing interest in RP and needs a brake from it.

[Skorj]

Not so much DM advice as managment advice: a common failing of managers is to spend 80% of your time with your least productive team member. This is a mistake. If he causes trouble, spend less (gaming) time with him, not more. Spend your creative energy making a better game for the players who want to participate.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Interestingly, I had a similar problem.

I talked to my player regarding the contents of this blog post - sometimes one player's expectations don't jive with the rest of the group. In such a case it is usually best for the player to quit the game - even if they try to conform, it isn't the sort of game he wants to play and he won't have fun.

If your player is reasonably mature and thoughtful, this paradigm gives you a good out. If not, try to get your player to accept the above proposition and either:

(A) Tell him you plan to run a game that he would like OR
(B) Try to find him another group

In any case, if you still want him as a friend do be sure to hang out with him more often in a non-gaming context. Perhaps organize a board-game night or something which eats up less of your time and will create a better experience for everyone.

[krossbow]

just take him aside and explain the situation to him. He's probably not too serious about it, and in such a case, its best just to be straightforward.

[DabblerWizard]

...
The person in question has been my buddy since we were in junior high. He was in the first D&D campaign I ran, and nearly every campaign I've run since. He's a nice guy, and I enjoy hanging out with him. Keep that in mind; whatever else happens, I want to keep him as a friend. However, I've recently started a new campaign, and his behavior thus far... has left something to be desired.

1. He rarely shows up, and never on time.

2. He's lagging behind the group.

3. He's chewing up my resources.

4. He wants to do his own thing.

5. He's completely out of tone.

6. He doesn't pick up on hints (subtle or otherwise).

So, there's the problems. Now, I'm debating whether to ask him to please leave the group, or to try and help him fix these issues.

As a DM, even though it's (implicitly) your job to generally manage a gaming table, it's not your responsibility to fix a player's social issues. Character issues, and mechanical issues, and feat selection, are all things that do come with the DM hat.

As a friend, I can understand the decision to want to change a friend's behavior, because it seems like the alternatives are (1) just sitting there and taking it, or (2) "turning away" from them. However, it's not your job to be his parent or his counselor.

It's very difficult to successfully, reasonably, and appropriately change another person's behavior for them. People change when they are ready to change, which is to say, when they want to, when they are motivated to change.

You can promote different behavior in your friend, by sharing your concerns with him. Tell him what his negative behaviors are. Tell him how these behaviors effect you, and the group overall. Tell him how you'll respond if this behavior continues.

Sharing your perspective will allow you to get your frustration off your chest, and then, all you can do is hope. He hopefully has the introspection and insight to realize that what you're saying is true, that these behaviors should be avoided, and that continuing them will jeopardize his status as a player in your gaming group, and maybe harm his friendship with you.

Awareness of a problem is often the first step in bringing about internal change. And, as a friend, this is the only step you can realistically hope to bring about.

It's up to your friend alone to actually change his behavior for the better.

So what can you do if he decides to keep acting the way he's acting?

You can't force his behavior, but you can change how you react to him. You can decide to no longer tolerate his tardiness. You can decide to not waste so much time prepping for him when he's barely appreciative and helpful. You can decide to ask him not to play because it's too frustrating, because you don't want to put up with it anymore. These are just some of your options. I'm sure you can think of more.

Good luck.

[Lin Bayaseda]

Not so much DM advice as managment advice: a common failing of managers is to spend 80% of your time with your least productive team member. This is a mistake. If he causes trouble, spend less (gaming) time with him, not more. Spend your creative energy making a better game for the players who want to participate.

This is great advice and deserves repeating. I instantly became a better DM when I realized that and started invest more time and energy in the party's strong contributors rather than the flaky players.

As for jiriku's advice, it's true and (C) never works, but (B) also almost never works. In the end, you just might have to go with (A).

If you want to keep him as a friend, an advice I can give to sweeten the pill is to use diplomacy, and if necessary, deception, to make it seem like it was his choice to leave the group rather than you kicking him out.

[kamikasei]

While of the above options "A" is the most effective, it doesn't really fix the problem. OP said he wanted to keep the friend and is seeking ways to keep him in the group.

He said he wanted to keep him as a friend. Option A allows that. It's what I'd recommend.

[Choco]

Not so much DM advice as managment advice: a common failing of managers is to spend 80% of your time with your least productive team member. This is a mistake. If he causes trouble, spend less (gaming) time with him, not more. Spend your creative energy making a better game for the players who want to participate.

I also have to second this advice.

We had a simlar problem in our group (I wasn't DM'ing at the time, but I was the unofficial group organizer). This guy was the ultimate in flakiness. To say he has communication issues would be a HUGE understatement. He would often show up 1-2 hours late to our 4 hour gaming session without notice. He would sometimes not show up at all and was not reachable in any way for the whole week, then he showed up next week (an hour late of course) and the only explanation we got was "last second plans". Sometimes, when we were lucky, he called about 1-2 hours after he was supposed to show up to tell us he was not coming.

Now, to make all the above worse, this guy WAS ALSO THE RIDE for 2 of the other players, so we could not just start without him because we were missing half the group.

In the end, we just arranged for another ride for the 2 reliable group members and stopped planning on him showing up. Note, we did not kick him from the group, we just turned his character into an NPC when he was not there so he would not get left behind. If he shows up, he just jumps in and plays his fairly mute character (which is why it was so easy making him an NPC). If not, no loss. Perhaps you should do something similar, keep his character with the party and just play him (or let another player play him) as an NPC. You could play him in a fashion that the rest of the group likes, and then create some story that he has 2 personalities or something to explain how it is so different when he plays

[Tinydwarfman]

I suggest warning him very clearly that if his behavior keeps up, you will take option A, and try to talk to him first. You lose nothing by doing it and it may solve your problem.

[Rolaran]

Thank you all for the good advice.

I think the way I'm going with this one is to politely point out that his behavior has been causing problems, and ask if there's something else in his life that's making it tough for him to get to the sessions. If there is, I guess I'm going to have to politely ask him to leave, while pointing out that we can hang out at other times. But maybe just pointing out that it is a problem will help. We'll see.

[Taelas]

Some people, while making great friends, make poor players. The fact that you share an interest -- D&D -- does not obligate you to involve him in it, despite your friendship. I say let him know just what his behavior is causing, and ask him either to change it or to leave. You can still hang out with him at other times, after all.