4e Dark Sun

[TheYoungKing]

Now, I'm one of those 3.5 fogies that could never see myself converting to 4e.....

But then, all of a sudden.....



.......... I need to play me some 4e.

And I was skeptical, a bit. Because, I mean, WoTC can't start off with that much awesome and not mess it up. But I've been reading Rich Baker's blog and have found nothing I disagree.

So, do you think Dark Sun would be worth it to convert? Or have they completely messed up the setting in some way I haven't yet seen?

[Silly Wizard]

Dark Sun is awesome, there isn't any reason you shouldn't play this! Plus, it's not really converting- contrary to popular belief, you can play both editions.

[TheYoungKing]

Assuming you only have the time for one RPG in your life, no, no you can't. And with the investment I would need to get into 4e.... no, no I can't.

[Kaun]

Assuming you only have the time for one RPG in your life, no, no you can't. And with the investment I would need to get into 4e.... no, no I can't.

So once you swap there is no going back!?!

Why wasn't i told!?!

WHY WASN'T I TOLD!???!!

[Gralamin]

Assuming you only have the time for one RPG in your life, no, no you can't. And with the investment I would need to get into 4e.... no, no I can't.

Spend like 11 bucks to get a ddi subscription for one month. That will give you a substantial amount of 4e material through the character builder. Buy a players handbook. You should be set.

And we have yet to see the final product, so can't say, but I'm waiting eagerly for it.

[The Glyphstone]

I made my joke about dying of dehydration (save ends) in the last 4E Dark Sun thread a while back, but if it's getting good endorsements from people involved in its development/reading said developers, my feelings are wavering towards 'cautiously optimistic'.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm not really familiar with past incarnations of this setting (although I'd heard of it before), but this looks like it'll be pretty awesome and I'll finally have a reason to start running a 4E game for my group.

[kieza]

One thing that I've heard is that part of the Player book contains modified rules for making the game grittier. I don't know what that entails, but I suspect it's something like making healing surges harder to recover, allowing fewer healing surges, and possibly making coup de grace and massive damage more likely to kill a character.

There will also probably be stuff for the DM like Endurance DCs for surviving without food or water, weird diseases (sunstroke? dehydration?), and suggestions for how to make classes and races fit into the setting.

[Tiki Snakes]

One thing that I've heard is that part of the Player book contains modified rules for making the game grittier. I don't know what that entails, but I suspect it's something like making healing surges harder to recover, allowing fewer healing surges, and possibly making coup de grace and massive damage more likely to kill a character.

There will also probably be stuff for the DM like Endurance DCs for surviving without food or water, weird diseases (sunstroke? dehydration?), and suggestions for how to make classes and races fit into the setting.

To be fair, coup-de-grace is pretty nasty already in theory, especially for some classes. A level 1 assassin can take out a level 8 fighter quite easily, or up to a level 15+ wizardy-psion type, in both cases of course providing they can hit.

I am looking forward to seeing what tweaks they might include, though.

[Swordgleam]

It'll be interesting to see how different/similar the tweaks are to all the stuff people have already homebrewed to make 4e more gritty. A lot of what I've seen online involves increasing the lethality of surprise rounds, mechanics for lasting injuries, making healing surges less useful, etc.

[BobVosh]

I was popping in to say a Dark Sun without character trees isn't Dark Sun. However the posts above give me hope for a 4ed DS. Any got word on how they are going to make it possible to die in 4ed?

Too bad we gave up fourth ed like a bad habit. Humorously, we still have more copies of 4ed PHB then 3.5, or PF.

*edit* Also have Thri-kreens and half-giants been stated? TKs were always one of my favorite races. Muls are pretty cool too.

[gdiddy]

If I had money to spend on battle maps and minis, I'd consider it.

[Kaun]

Yeah 4e could do with being more deadly.

Might end up xfering the alterations back into Vanilla.

[Gralamin]

One thing that I've heard is that part of the Player book contains modified rules for making the game grittier. I don't know what that entails, but I suspect it's something like making healing surges harder to recover, allowing fewer healing surges, and possibly making coup de grace and massive damage more likely to kill a character.

There will also probably be stuff for the DM like Endurance DCs for surviving without food or water, weird diseases (sunstroke? dehydration?), and suggestions for how to make classes and races fit into the setting.

That will actually all be part of the setting book - There is no players book, but there is a monster bestiary specifically for Dark Sun (which is appropriate)

[Grynning]

*edit* Also have Thri-kreens and half-giants been stated? TKs were always one of my favorite races. Muls are pretty cool too.

Half-giants = Goliaths from PHB2, re-fluffed. Muls are in and appear to get Str/Con bonuses. Haven't heard anything about Thri-Keen.

Relevant Article: http://critical-hits.com/2010/01/29/...un-characters/

They mention rules for weapon breakage in there, which I like a lot.

Weapon breakage rules are as follows: if you roll a 1 on an attack with a weapon, you can reroll it. If you’re using a non-metal weapon, it automatically breaks after the attack if you do so. If you’re using a metal weapon, it breaks on a roll of 1-5.

[Kurald Galain]

One thing that I've heard is that part of the Player book contains modified rules for making the game grittier.

I've heard the opposite. One of the DS developers stated that 4E was an excellent system for DS because 4E is already so gritty and deadly and points-of-lighty.

For instance? In 2E DS, your weapons can break. In 4E, they can't, so they made the rules grittier as follows: if you roll a 1 on a weapon attack, you can choose to take that as an automatic miss (as normal). If you don't, you get a free reroll, with a ~25% chance that your weapon breaks (depending on quality). So that means your weapon will never break if you don't want it to, and if you do accept that it might, you get free rerolls out of the bargain. That's... not exactly gritty.

So no, I do not expect any modifications to the rules that you can go without food for three to ten weeks, and that a bag of infinite food is a cheap magical item. Instead, I'd expect some endurance-based skill challenges.

The Thri-Kreen racial ability is a minor action triple attack, a bit like a melee dragon breath, and they get to draw and stow items as a free action; otherwise their extra arms don't do anything. Half-Giants are the same as Goliaths. Defilers get free rerolls on arcane attack and damage rolls, but doing so damages all their allies; this is not a new class but an extra feature for arcane classes. And the sorcerer king is a new pact option for Warlocks. And finally, characters get an extra encounter power based on which "theme" they join, like Veiled Alliance or Gladiator.

[BobVosh]

I've heard the opposite. One of the DS developers stated that 4E was an excellent system for DS because 4E is already so gritty and deadly and points-of-lighty.

What? This doesn't make sense. On a side note, what is "points-of-lighty"?

For instance? In 2E DS, your weapons can break. In 4E, they can't, so they made the rules grittier as follows: if you roll a 1 on a weapon attack, you can choose to take that as an automatic miss (as normal). If you don't, you get a free reroll, with a ~25% chance that your weapon breaks (depending on quality). So that means your weapon will never break if you don't want it to, and if you do accept that it might, you get free rerolls out of the bargain. That's... not exactly gritty.

Huh. I thought the guy mistyped when he said you could chose to reroll. I figured it was it broke, unless you roll 1-5 for metal. Silly.

So no, I do not expect any modifications to the rules that you can go without food for three to ten weeks, and that a bag of infinite food is a cheap magical item. Instead, I'd expect some endurance-based skill challenges.

You can? Odd.

The Thri-Kreen racial ability is a minor action triple attack, a bit like a melee dragon breath, and they get to draw and stow items as a free action; otherwise their extra arms don't do anything. Half-Giants are the same as Goliaths. Defilers get free rerolls on arcane attack and damage rolls, but doing so damages all their allies; this is not a new class but an extra feature for arcane classes. And the sorcerer king is a new pact option for Warlocks. And finally, characters get an extra encounter power based on which "theme" they join, like Veiled Alliance or Gladiator.

Hmm. Seems about right for a TK. I disapprove of that for a HG. Fits reasonably well for defilers, but it only does it to allies? Weird. So sorcerer-king is available at level 1? I would have guessed it would be an epic destiny...really weird. Encounter power is fine, I guess.

[Kurald Galain]

On a side note, what is "points-of-lighty"?

The notion that most of the campaign world is dark and evil and dangerous ruins created by half a dozen old empires, and that there's small points of safety in the form of small towns and villages. It's 4E's default campaign setting. I think the major changes to the Forgotten Realms were partially made to bring it closer to the points of light idea.

You can? Odd.

Default 4E rules. Without any penalties and before you have to make any kind of check, any character can go without air for three minutes, water for three days, food for three weeks. After that you start making checks and might lose healing surges, so you can likely survive for twice that period.

Hmm. Seems about right for a TK. I disapprove of that for a HG.

I'd say the opposite: I think a goliath would be a good fit for a half-giant, but would have liked seeing a different TK ability.

So sorcerer-king is available at level 1? I would have guessed it would be an epic destiny...really weird.

Ah, you don't become a sorcerer-king; rather, as a warlock, you draw your power not from a pact with demons, fey, or chtulhu (as is the default), but from a pact with the sorcerer-king. I'm not sure if that fits; but then, Dark Sun didn't have warlocks before.

[hamlet]

Kurald: Your words hurt me deep in my soul . . .

I've always been of the opinion that 4e (based on what I know about it and only having played it twice) that it is not a system fit for Dark Sun. That's not a criticism of the system, just a statement that, without MAJOR overhauls of concept and mood, it just doesn't fit into a world where basic survival is frequently the subject of game sessions let alone fighting monsters. Third edition can work, though not terribly well.

For the OP, why would you switch just to play DS when you can get a cheap copy of the setting for 2nd edition from e-bay and get the 3rd edition rules for free online? If third edition is your game, then keep on playing it man.

[Otogi]

Now, I'm one of those 3.5 fogies that could never see myself converting to 4e.....

But then, all of a sudden.....



.......... I need to play me some 4e.

And I was skeptical, a bit. Because, I mean, WoTC can't start off with that much awesome and not mess it up. But I've been reading Rich Baker's blog and have found nothing I disagree.

So, do you think Dark Sun would be worth it to convert? Or have they completely messed up the setting in some way I haven't yet seen?

I think you should do it just for the system, but if your not convinced, just remember that there's no official 3.5 Dark Sun setting and that the campaign will have it's own bestiary, something no other 4e campaign has at the moment (meaning that they are going to treat this one well).

[hamlet]

I think you should do it just for the system, but if your not convinced, just remember that there's no official 3.5 Dark Sun setting and that the campaign will have it's own bestiary, something no other 4e campaign has at the moment (meaning that they are going to treat this one well).

Not 100% true. While WOTC didn't release official Dark Sun material, there were, IIRC, two Dragon magazines with Dark Sun stuff in them. I think I might actually have them laying about . . .

And for what it's worth, I hear the free fanmade DS stuff online is excellent.

So, yeah, nothing official, but it's not a barren dessert out there.

[hamishspence]

the Campaign Classics issue (316?) with stuff from Ravenloft, Birthright, Mystara, etc- had some Dark Sun stuff.

Issue 319 also had some- it was basically a Dark Sun-centric issue.
I didn't manage to get it though.

One of the later issues (also with stuff from various campaign settings) had rules for Dragon Kings- an epic PRC that requires arcane casting and psionic manifesting, grants bonuses to the Epic Spellcasting feat (such as the ability to drain life from large numbers of living beings to power the spell) and turns the being into a dragon.

[Theodoric]

What's in it? No new classes, but what are the new races?
Forgotten Realms had plenty of 'generic' stuff to appeal to non-FR players (Swordmage and Genasi), Eberron a bit less (but still the Warforged). Though I'd think Dark Sun will be somewhat less 'accessible'.

[Tiki Snakes]

Product page is here. No new classes, sure. However, it does have new class builds and themes and so on, which to be honest, is likely to ammount to the same thing.

And don't let Kurald put you off. He has this whole Love-Hate thing going with the edition. It's kind of fascinating to watch some days.

Frankly, I don't do setting specific handbooks, because I'm so unlikely to ever run any.

For this, I shall be making an exception. That's really all I've got to say about it.

[Erom]

Played in the dark sun preview game at Pax East. The weapon breaking is easily avoided (don't take the re-roll!) but my friends like to live "on the edge", and we ended up breaking most of our weapons and nearly eating dirt because of it. We ran out of time, but were clearly doomed in the next encounter anyway.

The preview game was focused on action within Tyre(?) and the gladiatorial combat, so I didn't get to see what they had done with the wilderness survival/ endurance parts of it. I actually enjoyed the theme encounter powers. They were useful and flavorful, and helped compensate for the fact that decent items were much rarer. I think we had one weapon for the whole party that wasn't a "-1" weapon, and I think our armor was pretty subpar as well.

So, in summary: Slight power boost to characters, slight nerf to items, plus they seemed to balance the encounters harder. Not sure if that's going to be a dark sun trend or if they were gunning for us since it was a convention game.

[Hzurr]

Hmm...are you sure Sorcerer King is only a warlock pact? I seem to remember hearing Keith Baker say that it was also an epic destiny.

A few other notes:

- Dark Sun has no Divine Classes. This means that healing will be harder to come by, since you have no more uber-heal clerics or defenders who have secondary heal abilities like the Paladin.

- In Regard as "Points of Light" and dark/gritty, the default PHB/DMG setting assumes that the world is a hostile place, and going out in the wilderness is dangerous. Occationally, you'll find a town or city where there is relative safety; a "point of light" in the darkness that is the big scary world.

- No more "Christmas Tree Effect." Magic items, from my understanding, are very rare and tough to get. Actually, just getting a weapon made of metal is supposed to be a big deal. So this means no more "level 2 item that keeps me from ever starving" or "level 5 staff that lets me heal everyone around me." This alone makes things much more difficult.

[Kurald Galain]

Hmm...are you sure Sorcerer King is only a warlock pact?

No, I am merely sure that it is a warlock pact, not what else it may also be. I was responding to BobVosh query, can you become a sorcerer king at level one? The obvious answer to that is no

- Dark Sun has no Divine Classes. This means that healing will be harder to come by,

2E Dark Sun doesn't. Do we know the same about 4E Dark Sun? Yes, it would be a weird change, but then, 4E Forgotten Realms suddenly has Warforged and Dragonboobs walking around, too. Regardless, it will just mean people have to resort to arcane or martial healers.

- No more "Christmas Tree Effect." Magic items, from my understanding, are very rare and tough to get.

That would actually help, assuming it uses the DMG2 "lack of items" variant to keep the combat math on par.

And don't let Kurald put you off. He has this whole Love-Hate thing going with the edition. It's kind of fascinating to watch some days.

An apt description

To add to my earlier statement, no, I do not believe that Dark Sun will be much grittier or deadlier than "regular" 4E - however I also believe that that's really not what players want, either! Most players do not want their characters to have their arm chopped off, to starve to near-death on a regular basis, or to have their weapon break frequently in combat. And for those that do, well, it's not like starvation is hard to houserule in.

[Tiki Snakes]

I'd just like to add that once, just once, I would enjoy losing a limb during a campaign. It'd be cool. Regularly? that could get a bit traumatic.

But just the one little maiming between friends? I could be down with that.

[Kurald Galain]

I'd just like to add that once, just once, I would enjoy losing a limb during a campaign. It'd be cool. Regularly? that could get a bit traumatic.

But just the one little maiming between friends? I could be down with that.

'Tis But A Flesh Wound (fighter daily, level 9)
Standard action.
Attack: Str vs Fort
Hit: 3[W]+Str damage, and you chop off the target's leg (save ends).

[TheYoungKing]

First D&D game ever- friend's dads 2e (I think, heavily homebrewed looking back) group. Played for a couple of hours. Got eaten by Halflings.

If 4e Dark Sun can't do that..... then I might still buy the book and scavenge (although, sadly, 4e doesn't convert well)