[3.5] Strong Level 1 Gestalts

[Zovc]

I am first on a DM's waiting list with a Sorcerer built for one of his campaigns, I didn't know, but the DM also has a Gestalt campaign running. Apparently, one of the gestalt campaign's players has stopped responding (A Rogue//Warlock).

So, I've been informed that the first spot open will likely be a gestalt one, while I have no problem with this, I wasn't prepared.

Classes that seem like they could be fun to use (in no particular order):

Beguiler
Crusader
Duskblade
Factotum
Marshal
Paladin
Psion
Swordsage
Warblade
Warmage

That's all off of the top of my head, but combinations don't have to use both of those, those are just classes that sound interesting.

[JaronK]

Factotum//Warblade would be great at level 1, and continue to be fun. If you want to be a ninja type, Beguiler//Factotum or Factotum//Swordsage would be decent too but not as strong right out of the box.

JaronK

[HunterOfJello]

Melee characters are strongest at levels 1-5 while spellcasters really bloom after 6 or so.


The 'melee characters rock at low levels' rule applies doubly so to the Tome of Battle classes. Also, the ToB classes don't start sucking after level 5 like most melee classes.


Therefore, I would suggest a ToB class like Warblade or Swordsage (the two fun ones) and another class that will have good synergy with them like Factotum for Warblade or a Dex/Wis type class for Swordsage.

[Glimbur]

Swordsage//Cleric? Warblade//Wizard? Totemist//Barbarian? Incarnate//Warblade? Fighter//Samurai (just kidding).

[Amphetryon]

Warblade//Beguiler is an under-appreciated gestalt combo that can handle most threats and run well on just INT and DEX.

[Jack_Simth]

Depends on what you want to do.

Swordsage // Druid rocks - a Riding Dog animal companion is a bit of a fighter, you've got Full Casting, Tome of Battle Maneuvers, and wisdom synergy.

A Ninja//Druid rocks as well - skillmonkey, lots of Wisdom synergy, Full Caster for later on, and an animal companion for a fighter early on.

Factotum//Anything Int-based does very well; Warblade, Wizard, Psion - all are good choices to pair with a Factotum.

An Elan Warblade//Psion is ridiculously difficult to kill. Especially if you take Elan Resilience, Enhanced, from Complete Psionic.

What do you want to do?

[Zovc]

What do you want to do?

A full base attack bonus seems nice, so does a big hit die.

Spellcasting seems like icing, not that there is anything wrong with icing. I must admit that limiting armor options doesn't seem like the best idea.

Skillmonkeying seems like a nice thing to bring to the table, too.

Warblade//Beguiler looks like it can do all of that to some extent. It's not like I want to cast anything other than Sleep or Color Spray at first level, anyways.

What should I do with 32 point buy as a Warblade//Beguiler, and what LA +0 race should I choose? Lesser Planetouched are allowed.

For some reason, I keep thinking of "ninja" when I think of that class combination, what sort of character do those two classes together make you think of?

[Jack_Simth]

A full base attack bonus seems nice, so does a big hit die.

Okay... so... Warblade on one side.

Spellcasting seems like icing, not that there is anything wrong with icing. I must admit that limiting armor options doesn't seem like the best idea.

Spellcasting isn't icing - it's planning for the future. See, most meatshields are fairly high on relative personal power at lower levels, but fairly low on relative personal power at higher levels. Most full casters are fairly low on relative personal power at lower levels, but fairly high on relative personal power at higher levels. Skillmonkeys are about in the middle at most levels.

So when you gestalt, you want a Skillmonkey//Full Caster or a Meatshield//Full Caster.

Also:
Full Caster doesn't have to use actual spells. There's a few pseudo-casters out there that will fit the bill, most notably in Psionics: A Psion (Expanded Psionic Handbook and the System Reference Document; Int-based), Wilder (Expanded Psionic Handbook and the System Reference Document; Cha-based), or Ardent (Complete Psionic; Wis-based) are Full Casters, they just use a different system... and armor doesn't interfere with their casting. They make a great pairing with meatshields for that reason.

Skillmonkeying seems like a nice thing to bring to the table, too.

Warblade//Beguiler looks like it can do all of that to some extent. It's not like I want to cast anything other than Sleep or Color Spray at first level, anyways.

What should I do with 32 point buy as a Warblade//Beguiler, and what LA +0 race should I choose? Lesser Planetouched are allowed.

Either: Int > Con > Dex > Str > Cha > Wis or: Int > Con > Str > Dex > Cha > Wis. But Int and Con are your first two priorities. Then comes Dex (if you want a more defensive build), or Str (if you want a more offensive build).

For some reason, I keep thinking of "ninja" when I think of that class combination, what sort of character do those two classes together make you think of?

Doesn't matter, you're the one playing. If you think "Ninja", then play up that angle.

[strider24seven]

Warblade//Anything is awesome.

Factotum//Anything is awesome, but less so at level 1. It really blooms after level 3.

Warblade//Factotum is awesome at level 1, really awesome at level 3, and stupidly powerful after level 8.

+1 for Elan Warblade/Psion.

Actually, Barbarian//Psychic Warrior is pretty awesome with Claws of the Beast and Bear Totem.

[Eldariel]

Warblade//Wizard would be an incredible level 1 Gestalt; you have insane all-day powers, all the Wizardly defenses (Abrupt Jaunt!!) and ~4 encounter enders handy, along with mayhap a self-buff or two (Enlarges, True Strikes, the like). Factotum doesn't really kick in for another handful of levels; it's quite good, but on these levels, not as strong as Warwizard.

4+Int skills from decent list means you're a decent skill monkey too, though it's true that Beguiler would do that better (but Wizard, on the other hand, does combat casting, protection and everything else better; Tier 1 and all). Then again, since Wizard wasn't on your original list, I'll just shut up now.

[deuxhero]

Play a housecat if you are playing at level one. You will be quite powerful. For the rest of your Gestalt, be a Factotum 8/Warblade x//Wizard/Malconvoker simply for the luz that being a cat will bring

Failing that, blow your starting wealth on combat pets.

[PhoenixRivers]

Focused Specialist Wizard // Warblade

You get the casty potential, the beatstick option, and you're solid.

[Optimystik]

Totemist//DFA is a nice choice. Con-focused, so you get tons of HP, and you'll be an excellent tank even with just light armor. All good saves too. And since you start out with Dragontouched, you don't have to burn a feat on it to get those fun Dragon melds in DM, like Dragon Tail.

[gorfnab]

Warforged Artificer // Warblade - self repairing tank
Binder // Crusader - very versatile
Marshal // Crusader - strong party buffer
Dragon Shaman // Crusader - secondary healer, decent melee
Warlock // Crusader - with Eldritch Glaive you can cover both melee and ranged combat

[CockroachTeaParty]

I'll second the Dragonfire Adept / Incarnum combo. Incarnate or Totemist are fine choices.

I'm really learning to love the DFA. I'm almost inclined to say that every adventuring party should include one. Unlimited free identification of magic items, and practically guaranteed damage every round. Much better than warlock.

[Optimystik]

I'll second the Dragonfire Adept / Incarnum combo. Incarnate or Totemist are fine choices.

I'm really learning to love the DFA. I'm almost inclined to say that every adventuring party should include one. Unlimited free identification of magic items, and practically guaranteed damage every round. Much better than warlock.

In a straight comparison I agree with you, but the PrCs and Crafting bonuses give Warlocks the edge I'd say.

[Zovc]

There was a thread on the Wizards forums that had every race with a +0 LA... I can't seem to find it. I'm sure someone knows where it is!

[Eloel]

Focused Specialist Wizard // Warblade

You get the casty potential, the beatstick option, and you're solid.

'Options' are not the best way to use your gestalt levels on. A Factotum/Chameleon non-gestalt has the same options, if a bit lower level.
You're looking for things that stack, or synergize well. That usually means a passive class and an active class together.

Warblade sure can be played 'passive' to stack with other stuff, but really, in a Wizard//Warblade or Psion//Warblade combo, you're taking the Warblade for stances and counters - not strikes and boosts, you won't be a beatstick.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

'Options' are not the best way to use your gestalt levels on. A Factotum/Chameleon non-gestalt has the same options, if a bit lower level.
You're looking for things that stack, or synergize well. That usually means a passive class and an active class together.

Warblade sure can be played 'passive' to stack with other stuff, but really, in a Wizard//Warblade or Psion//Warblade combo, you're taking the Warblade for stances and counters - not strikes and boosts, you won't be a beatstick.

It's less optimal to focus on the Warblade side, sure, even if you polymorph yourself into a War Troll and go to town. But it's also less optimal to play a Warblade than to play a Wizard. What I'm saying is that Wizard is versatile enough to provide real options to a warblade and act as a de-facto passive side with all those buffs. Druid/Swordsage might do it better, but that has a much different feel.

[NotMe]

While Warblade / Beguiler is a favourite of mine, I think that for low level play the Warblade / Psion is at least as strong an option (mainly due to the increased range of armour), while still being good over 20 levels. Psion can also be a better option if you want to operate as a gish, rather than just a caster, though beguiler is better if you place more value on stealth, trapfinding and skills.

Either one is a very good long term option in gestalt.

[strider24seven]

'Options' are not the best way to use your gestalt levels on. A Factotum/Chameleon non-gestalt has the same options, if a bit lower level.
You're looking for things that stack, or synergize well. That usually means a passive class and an active class together.
.

But Factotum/Chameleon in gestalt can be absolutely awesome, and synergizes with everything, especially if it's Int-based. Chameleon gets you arcane AND divine casting up to 6th level, at a great caster level. Factotum gets you reliability outside of combat, as well as the ability to nova and blow past enemies with DR/SR.

Factotum11/Chameleon9//Wizard 20 has absurd casting potential.
Factotum11/Chameleon9//Psion 20 has absurd blasting potential.
Factotum11/Chameleon9//Warblade 20 has absurd tanking potential.
And so on.

It's not level 1, but I just thought I'd throw that out there.

[Person_Man]

Incarnate//Crusader is essentially an unstoppable tank at level 1.

Incarnate brings DR 4/magic from Astral Vembraces plus 2d6 retributive fire damage from Mantle of Flame (although you'll need/want to be an Incarnum race so that you can get a bonus point of essentia needed to keep both powered up). And remember that every morning you can swap out your soulmeld for other stuff if you get bored of this combo. At higher levels Incarnate basically gives you every defensive and buff option you could ask for - concealment, SR, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, flight, souped up Deflect Arrows, boosts to-hit, damage, AC, most Skills (including Tumble and UMD), etc.

Crusader brings full BAB, d10 hit die, heavy armor, Steely Resolve (delayed damage) 5, vampiric healing from the Martial Spirit stance (vampiric healing), and some excellent maneuvers. At higher levels you might want to multi-class into Warblade or PrC, or you can just stick with Crusader and become the ultimate damage sponge.

The only real problem is potential MAD, but that can easily be solved by careful Soulmeld and Maneuver selection - just avoid things with Save DCs.

[Indon]

Factotum//Incarnate is like a factotum but, believe it or not, even more factotumy as the Incarnate's abilities consist of access to a bunch of miscellaneous bonuses to things like skills, and a few minor spell-like powers.

[strider24seven]

Factotum//Incarnate is like a factotum but, believe it or not, even more factotumy

I believe the words you are looking for are maior factoto.

Actually, it would be qualis factotum, sed maior factoto.
"Just as a Factotum, but more than a Factotum.

[Zeta Kai]

IMO, a Wizard//Factotum or a Swordsage//Druid would be your best bet. Both have good ability synergy (INT & WIS, respectively), & have class features that play off of each other well. At level one, neither is invinceable, but they both grow up to be power-beasts very quickly, & have the potential to outshine anyone else in a campaign at every level.

[Amphetryon]

<snip>
Warblade//Beguiler looks like it can do all of that to some extent. It's not like I want to cast anything other than Sleep or Color Spray at first level, anyways.

What should I do with 32 point buy as a Warblade//Beguiler, and what LA +0 race should I choose? Lesser Planetouched are allowed.

For some reason, I keep thinking of "ninja" when I think of that class combination, what sort of character do those two classes together make you think of?

As one who suggested the combo, I'd consider Dragonborn (Wings aspect) with Snow Elf as the base race. +2 to CON, -2 to CHA, Wings.

I'd assign 32 points of stats as 14 14 12 16 12 10, for a final adjustments to 14 14 14 16 12 8. The 2 points in CHA are entirely optional - a habit from my old DM - and you could just as easily beef up HP further by swapping the DEX and CON scores.

[Draz74]

Incarnate brings DR 4/magic from Astral Vembraces plus 2d6 retributive fire damage from Mantle of Flame (although you'll need/want to be an Incarnum race so that you can get a bonus point of essentia needed to keep both powered up). And remember that every morning you can swap out your soulmeld for other stuff if you get bored of this combo. At higher levels Incarnate basically gives you every defensive and buff option you could ask for - concealment, SR, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, flight, souped up Deflect Arrows, boosts to-hit, damage, AC, most Skills (including Tumble and UMD), etc.

Also, if you take the right Soulmelds and feats, Incarnate specialized in Dissolving Spittle is just plain nasty at Level 1 in terms of damage output. 3d6 acid damage. Every turn. As a ranged touch attack. Yikes. That's triple the damage of a Warlock.

[strider24seven]

Yes, Incarnates are brutal at low levels.
Yes, Tome of Battle is brutal at low levels.

So, Crusader//Incarnate is super brutal at low levels.

[Person_Man]

Also, if you take the right Soulmelds and feats, Incarnate specialized in Dissolving Spittle is just plain nasty at Level 1 in terms of damage output. 3d6 acid damage. Every turn. As a ranged touch attack. Yikes. That's triple the damage of a Warlock.

IIRC, Dissolving Spittle damage is only 1d6 + (1d6 * essentia invested). So at first level it's a max of 2d6 damage (unless you invest in the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat - which is not a good idea unless you intend to super specialize in Dissolving Spittle). But on the up side, if you have a familiar or animal companion you can take the Share Soulmeld feat, and have your pet use Dissolving Spittle every round as well. So 4d6 ranged touch every round at first level is an excellent (although boringly repetitive) option.

Good catch Draz.

[Gnaeus]

Also, if you can take LA or monster class levels on one side of the gestalt, they are often very strong. For example, Half-dragon is actually a little weak for melee, because you lose 3 levels of HD, BAB and saves, but a Warblade 1 //draconic template advancing to warblade 3//Half Dragon is a killer. This may or may not be legal under any individual DM's interpretation of Gestalt.