Dash of Armored Calvary

[quiet1mi]

Hey I was wondering what the community thought about a Fighter that spends 3 Feats to get: Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, and Spirited Charge...

For 3 Feats you can get a ridiculous damage output... When you account for the damage being tripled the end result looks like this.

Power Attack for x6.0
Strength Bonus x4.5
Weapon Damage x3.0

A level 6 Human Fighter investing in the following feats gets ridiculous...

• Power Attack
• Improved Bull Rush
• Improved Sunder
• Mounted Combat
• Ride-by Attack
• Spirited Charge
• Combat Brute
• Shock Trooper

Accounting for 16 strength raised to 18 via gauntlets, and you are looking at 67.5 damage on the charge... who cares if your AC is now zero, your mount just got to move twice...

The Next turn your charge deals 121.5 Damage! This comes from the extra 18 points from combat brute that gets multiplied to 54 extra damage.

Even without those 3 feats, this level 6 fighter can still contribute by bull-rushing opponents into each other, dealing damage with combat brute and shock-trooper with power attack, Sundering opponents weapons or components (Yes, I know you are destroying your potential wealth, but most GMs will give less in treasure if you are looting the dead so you don't get too far ahead of WBL),

By the time your fighter reaches 12, the investment of those 3 feats represent only 23% of your feats while dealing an extra 79 damage (118.5), Combat Brute deals an additional 108 damage after tripled thanks to spirited charge...

[BRC]

It's a powerful trick, but it only works if you have charging room, the ability to use your mount, the assumption that you are beating your targets AC with this attack (Misses do happen),

[Yukitsu]

It works up until everything kills your mount. Paladins and druids are better at this trick than straight fighters simply because they have viable mounts up to late levels.

Next of all, it's very easily negated. Charges require perfectly clear avenues of attack which are rather hard to get against an intelligent opponent.

[Krade]

Pedant Powers^TM ACTIVATE!!!

I believe you mean "Cavalry." >.<

That said, I thought something like this was actually a fairly common build.

[UglyPanda]

It is indeed a common build. Practical versions sometimes involve riding dogs simply because they can be used indoors.

And then there are the centaur versions of the build and such.

I think a build with Lion Totem Barbarian outdoes this, by the way.

[FMArthur]

Don't forget the Paladin (and Wrath domain) spell Rhino's Rush. It's 1st level and doubles your charge damage. So does a Valorous weapon (a +1 enhancement). If you are Raptorian (Races of the Wild) or took the winged Dragonborn template (Races of the Dragon), you can also make a diving attack from the air, which is a charge but needs a minimum distance travelled and doubles your damage with a piercing weapon. You can do this while mounted if you take the Drakkensteed mount option from Dragon Magic. The Cavalier prestige class (requires BAB +8) offers a 5/day "Deady Charge" option that overrides Spirited Charge, which is the same but has a multiplier one step higher. At tenth level it becomes "Unstoppable Charge" and quintuples damage instead of Spirited Charge. So a Valorous, Unstoppable, Rhino's Rush dive-attack charge with a lance will deal 8 times your damage. Take Shock Trooper and then take 2 levels of Ronin to Shock Trooper while you Shock Trooper (Banzai Charge = Heedless Charge) for -40 to your AC and +a huge number to your damage.

I'm probably forgetting more. Trust me, this idea is as old as the PHB and has had armies of people perfecting it since then.

[TheYoungKing]

Wait, how can you make your AC negative?

[FMArthur]

By using abilities that subtract from it. You don't have -40 AC, you just subtract 40 from your AC. That can land you anywhere from -20 to -30 AC depending on your original AC. You may as well take Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit, since their combined -8 AC drawback is practically free when you're into negative AC. You may want some other kind of defense. And protection from ranged attacks, whose originators no longer need bother calculating range increments.

[TheYoungKing]

I don't think you can do that....

(Perfectly fine if I'm proven wrong by RAW, but as a DM, I would immediately rule that you can't benefit from such a thing. You'd have to actually have AC to spare.)

[Glimbur]

I don't think you can do that....

(Perfectly fine if I'm proven wrong by RAW, but as a DM, I would immediately rule that you can't benefit from such a thing. You'd have to actually have AC to spare.)

pedantic

There's no rule that says you can't.

/pedantic

[NEO|Phyte]

pedantic

There's no rule that says you can't.

/pedantic

Air Bud clause is a bad way to go, more accurately, there's no rules stating that one's AC has to remain a positive number.

[TheYoungKing]

But there is also no rule allowing negative AC.

[Eldariel]

It's the only real way to deal damage in Core after movement on high levels (outside Polymorphing into something with Pounce). In fact, I strive to include the line on every Core Barbarian and Fighter I build, using Leadershipped mount if available and trying to get something Planar Bound or some such if not.

Being able to deal ~300 points on level 20 vs. AC 40 isn't amazing, but it's at least enough that you may have some functionality. And of course, on a bit lower levels the damage output is truly impressive.


Of course you knew that the Übercharger started from the very same idea?

[Yukitsu]

I prefer class over the FB ubercharger. That's why I use a paladin on a dragon.

[Flickerdart]

But there is also no rule allowing negative AC.

Attack bonuses can be negative. Save bonuses can be negative. AC isn't sacred in that way - you don't need a rule to allow it dropping below zero. Power Attack and Combat Expertise have explicit caps on not being able to draw more BAB than you have, but Shock Trooper and Banzai Charge do not do the same to AC.

[quiet1mi]

Who says you cannot combine Uberchargers and Mounted Rider...

I hear a Frenzied Berserker armed with a Lance on a horse is quite a site to behold...

Or Better yet... a Raptoran jumping off his mount into a dive while bullrushing him into the ground...

Someone has to combine all the charge based builds into one, single sentence...

[Eldariel]

Who says you cannot combine Uberchargers and Mounted Rider...

I don't think you understand: that's what the Übercharger is; build stacking all charge multipliers (including mounted bonuses) onto one (or full) attack. Which is why I brought it up.

[Yukitsu]

Who says you cannot combine Uberchargers and Mounted Rider...

I hear a Frenzied Berserker armed with a Lance on a horse is quite a site to behold...

Because his horse would get shot out from under him, as all the best mounted classes are lawful only.

Or he'd win, then decapitate his horse.

That and he autofails all ride checks.

With barb speed boosts, this one is better off on foot anyway.

[TheYoungKing]

Attack bonuses can be negative. Save bonuses can be negative. AC isn't sacred in that way - you don't need a rule to allow it dropping below zero. Power Attack and Combat Expertise have explicit caps on not being able to draw more BAB than you have, but Shock Trooper and Banzai Charge do not do the same to AC.

I call RAI.

Save bonuses, attack bonuses.... note a keyword there? These are applied to rolls. A negative has an effect, subtracting from the roll.

AC (armor class) is a target number for a roll (much like DC, difficulty class). Reducing it into negatives has NO negative effect on gameplay (unless you are playing a rolling AC variant) Rolling against a negative AC or a negative DC doesn't make any sense, nor does ending up with a ridiculous number like -36 or something.

"Roll me a d20, add your Dex mod. DC is -35."

There are other cases of game stats not being allowed to go into negative numbers (key among them ability scores)

Having NO further negative effect from being lower than 0 means lowering it even further shouldn't have a positive effect.

It may not be RAW, but there is no way WOTC intended for players to use the pointlessness of negative AC to pump themselves.

[Claudius Maximus]

There are printed examples of negative AC in Stormwrack (e.g. a colossal object has -3 AC; -8 from its size and -5 from its dexterity score of 0).

[pingcode20]

And bingo. That's what negative AC does.

So easy to hit you that a pixie would have no problem beaning you in the face with a cannon from 2km away. You aren't just easy to hit, your charge has created some kind of weird singularity thing that draws attacks in towards it from the whole battlefield and then some.

[Pechvarry]

Aye. Negative AC represents the ability to miss something when conditions are against you (the broadside of a barn with sayyy -2 AC hidden behind a smaller barn providing it cover pushes its negative into the positve; an archer shooting at a barn from a thousand feet away takes large enough attack penalties to feasibly miss).

[Gorilla2038]

If your DM loves you, cleave and great cleave can be used to awesome effect with Mounted chargers. Line of dead beings, by level six. I had a unit of half-giant calvary that did this, twas quite awesome.

[TheYoungKing]

However, objects basically ignore AC. PHB pg. 165. An object's AC simply doesn't matter when trying to hit it. Doesn't change the fact that a negative AC means absolutely nothing different than a 0 AC.

And the example you quoted specifically said that ships don't use the overall AC, they use the AC of specific sections of the ship. Starting at Huge size (i.e. right at the size category after which they'd start dipping into negative ACs.) So that negative AC is not used in the game anyways.

Are there any examples of a negative AC on something without automatic-hit rules, specific statements that those ACs aren't used, negative DCs (as an analogue) or how about sample characters using negative AC chicanery? If none of those exist, then its not a stretch at all to say that WoTC did not intend for costs to be paid in negative ACs.

(Would you allow players to pay for equipment in negative gold?)

[Akal Saris]

I prefer class over the FB ubercharger. That's why I use a paladin on a dragon.

You and me both, sir.

[Claudius Maximus]

You only automatically hit an object with a melee weapon, and then only if you use a full-round action to do it. Pechvarry had the right of it when he and/or she asserted that a negative AC is relevant for attack rolls because it can still be missed with a large enough attack penalty.

I'll also point out that a colossal creature with 1 dexterity has an AC of -3 and does not use sectional rules. It is possible miss such a creature in a situation in which you could hit it if it had AC 0, so there is a difference between AC 0 and a negative AC.

There are negative DCs given for Listen checks right here, which I would imagine proves negative DCs can exist.

[TheYoungKing]

Quote me a Monster Manual for a colossal creature with 1 Dexterity and no NA. It doesn't exist.

The "overall AC" for ships from Stormwrack has an exact cut-off on when they'd start to hit negative AC, with a disclaimer stating that they don't use the overall AC after that. RAI, that indicates the negative AC is not a *real* game possibility (why else would they indicate that in the size category right before negative AC?) and was likely included because WoTC is lazy with their stat block functions.

RAW example of negative AC actually being used in a WoTC stat block, without a disclaimer that you don't use that AC. Bonus points if you find an example of a printed use of negative AC for paying a cost.

EDIT: And with Listen, there is an actual mechanical benefit to -10 DC. You can make out the voices if you exceed the DC by 10 or more. Specific trumps general. Rather odd in that it is the only example and that all others use mods, not decreased DCs.

[hamishspence]

a Wu Jen (Complete Arcane) can reach Colossal size with a spell in that book- does the spell grant Natural Armour?

If not, a Colossal Wu Jen with a Dexterity of 3 (or worse, if hit by a Dex-draining attack) might have an AC that "ought" to be negative.

[AslanCross]

Stormwrack shows objects (ships) with negative AC. Eberron's Explorer's Handbook has similar stats, showing negative AC on the vessels there.

Red Hand of Doom assumes a city wall has -6 AC.

[Ossian]

Just contributing damage pennies here, but a dip in ranger would perhaps grant favored power attack which (multiplied) can add some extra punishment. Quite shocked by what builds can do. I must check the splatbooks tonight to see how the math comes up :)!!!

O.