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Thread: Paladins choice

  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Paladins choice

    Not all paladins are the same.

    There is no action that specifically is "wrong" because of this situation.

    Helping the woman (regardless of her wishes) by arresting the man is a Good (as well as Lawful) action. Accepting her ability to defend herself (thus recognizing her wishes) is also Good, though if you simply take her refusal as an excuse not to help, it is more Neutral. Refusing to get involved is Neutral, and a paladin is not penalized for committing Neutral actions.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solarn View Post
    No. I don't commit crimes because crimes are wrong. Pls not to be judging the whole of humanity after yourself.
    Actually I don't commit most crimes because they are wrong...
    I meant "ask anyone why they don't commit a crime which they believe shouldn't be a crime"... I should have phrased it better.
    And I am not basing it off of myself, I really did ask a bunch of people and everyone knows and fears that prison = rape.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ormur View Post
    I'd say torture falls pretty squarely under that. It doesn't even matter if the circumstances make it seem a sensible choice at the moment, it's still evil. You might justify it as necessary evil but it still takes you a long step from the good alignment, not to mention that torture isn't really effective, whether it's at extracting information or as a deterrent against horrible crimes.
    That is one possible interpretation, but it is certainly arguable against.
    Or maybe it is evil to NOT torture under such circumstances... by labeling the torture of child rapists wrong and evil and forbidden you are directly causing more children to be raped. Which is an evil act.
    This is NOT justifying "torture the evil act", that is saying that NOT torturing is an evil act.

    And what the hell is wrong with JUSTIFYING actions? You better have a pretty damn good justifications for moral choices you make otherwise you are just randomly doing things without sense or reason. Justifying things means "making them just", and its a pretty good term because it can do exactly that when done CORRECTLY.
    I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!

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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Paladins choice

    You can stop a child molester without torturing them.
    Last edited by Taelas; 2010-04-12 at 06:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Szar_Lakol View Post
    You can stop a child molester without torturing them.
    I thought it was pretty clear i was talking about others...

    If you torture bob the child rapist to death, you save amber the 9 year old from being raped and murdered by james, because james heard what happened to bob and is too afraid to do so himself.
    You saved amber from james. Not saving amber from james because of some flimsy moralistic excuse (torture is always evil) is an evil act in of itself. I wasn't saying that torturing bob will make bob himself reform his ways

    If you gave bob a second chance and released him on an unsuspecting public and like the other 98% of rapists released from prison he becomes a repeat offender you are DEFINITELY responsible for his victims and you have definitely done evil by releasing him.

    EDIT: and doing this sort of evil via an "ignorant" (according to my beliefs; not universal; many would say I am the one being ignorant) desire to do good is fairly understandable, very common, and forgivable to a degree.
    Last edited by taltamir; 2010-04-12 at 07:18 PM.
    I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!

    the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by taltamir View Post
    I thought it was pretty clear i was talking about others...

    If you torture bob the child rapist to death, you save jill the 8 year old from being raped by james, because james heard what happened to bob and is too afraid to do so himself.
    You saved jill from james. Not saving jill from james because of some flimsy moralistic excuse (torture is always evil) is an evil act in of itself.
    The whole "scarying people into not doing evil" efficiency is not generally agreed upon. I do not have them on hand, but I hear that studies have shown that (for example) capital punishment is NOT an effective deterrent to crime.

    Torture may or may not be more efficient. Who knows?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    The whole "scarying people into not doing evil" efficiency is not generally agreed upon. I do not have them on hand, but I hear that studies have shown that (for example) capital punishment is NOT an effective deterrent to crime.

    Torture may or may not be more efficient. Who knows?
    every study I have ever read that asked prisoners what their biggest fear was and it was always "an armed victim"...

    Keep in mind that different studies have different agendas to prove and lying with statistics is trivially easy.

    I am just saying that the notions they have presented as the only possible argument are simply not. In this rare case I am actually arguing the point I believe in... but I'd be playing devils advocate anyways if a person refused to acknowledge the mere existence of opposing viewpoints.

    They can say that I am wrong, that it doesn't work, and so on... but don't tell me "you know its evil to torture you are just making excuses to yourself despite knowing better". Torture is not universally believed to be evil, in fact, by the above examples NOT torturing under specific circumstance is evil.
    I am willing to accept that I might be wrong on the issue, I am CERTAINLY willing to accept that there are other opinions on the issue which disagree with mine. please extend equal courtesy and accept that there are people who truly and honestly believe that under certain circumstances torture is good and not torturing is evil.
    Last edited by taltamir; 2010-04-12 at 06:39 PM.
    I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!

    the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.

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    Default Re: Paladins choice

    Not to mention, couldn't you punish or kill Bob the child rapist in a detterent-y way (even though I'm not sure myself how effective that idea is, I'm just running with it) without actually torturing him? It's sometimes a fine line, I admit...but sometimes it's not a very fine line at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deme View Post
    Not to mention, couldn't you punish or kill Bob the child rapist in a detterent-y way (even though I'm not sure myself how effective that idea is, I'm just running with it) without actually torturing him? It's sometimes a fine line, I admit...but sometimes it's not a very fine line at all.
    Maybe you could... do you have a specific suggestion?
    Recall some people argue that capital punishment in of itself is always wrong and that killing should never be a deterrent; the whole torture as a deterrent is just taking it one step further.

    I totally accept that my belief on the subject is not the only one and that some people genuinely believe that what I think to be "good" is "evil" and that what I think to be "evil" is "good" and that my values are in no way universal (my values just happen to be the correct ones and theirs are the incorrect ones *wink*).
    Last edited by taltamir; 2010-04-12 at 06:50 PM.
    I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!

    the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by taltamir View Post
    Who asked for her help... they did NOT tell her to buzz off...
    If I recall, the sorceress and her dad who used to be bandit kinds? (wasn't he chaotic good and she chaotic neutral?)... they got murdered when they told her to buzz off.

    roy on the other hand left them tied together in the forest with their army gone where they have to resolve their family issues etc.
    I did not write to to turn this into a debate whether or not Miko was a shinning example of all a paladin should be, because we all know she was not.
    However that is just not how it went down

    What I meant was that if even a paladin as self absorbed and powerful as Miko considered helping the commoners important and not only concern her self with world changing events, then every paladin properly should.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anterean View Post
    I did not write to to turn this into a debate whether or not Miko was a shinning example of all a paladin should be, because we all know she was not.
    However that is just not how it went down

    What I meant was that if even a paladin as self absorbed and powerful as Miko considered helping the commoners important and not only concern her self with world changing events, then every paladin properly should.
    I agree... you should show concern and compassion and willingness to help.
    Although if you are really on a world shattering event you could just say "look, you should really resolve this or go to the police" and make a mental note to check back on them after having saved the bus full of orphans / the country / world.
    But it is really a matter of perspective there... I would as a DM ask the paladin "why are you walking away" and have a different reaction if the response was "I don't care about them", "they are just lesser beings", "I am not letting millions die so I can solve a domestic dispute" or "they have a right to private and neither of them wants aid or to press charges" or any other response.

    And I am not even sure "I just don't care" warrants an automatic fall... (and I would ask "why don't you care, specifically")
    Last edited by taltamir; 2010-04-12 at 06:46 PM.
    I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!

    the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Good and evil in D&D is not subjective, it is objective. Good is being merciful, forgiving, and kind. Evil is being selfish, harmful, and malicious. Even if a character does not think he is doing evil it is not the thought, but it is the action that counts.

    Also, paladins can hardly get away with doing neutral acts. For example, if a paladin were to pass by someone innocent in trouble he would be violating his code. Whereas a neutral alignment would be able to do this. You serve a deity as a paladins, if you don't uphold the deities wishes you lose your powers. Paladins aren't meant to be played by temperamentally. You're given responsibility with that class, and if you ruin it, you lose your privileges too.

    Torture's full purpose is to inflict pain and suffering on an individual, and is therefore an evil act. I don't care about bob the rapist. As a paladin it is your duty to uphold the law and your deity's values. If that means you don't kill people unlawfully or without just reason then you don't do it period. There are no exceptions.

    A kensai is a good example of another class that requires a huge commitment (to a more extreme level). If you violate your code for any reason you lose your powers and have to atone. It doesn't matter whether it was for the greater good or not, you violated your code.

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    Quote Originally Posted by taltamir View Post
    If I recall, the sorceress and her dad who used to be bandit kinds? (wasn't he chaotic good and she chaotic neutral?)...
    1) They were bandits up until they died.
    2) Where on earth are you getting him being Chaotic Good and her being Chaotic Neutral?
    3) Rich said in the commentary on one of the books that he considered Samantha clearly evil, her father dark-side-of-neutral at best.
    they got murdered when they told her to buzz off.
    4) And when you say, "Told her to buzz off," you mean told her, "You'll serve me or you'll die! Hold Person!" And when you say "murdered," you mean "killed in clear and unambiguous self-defense." Really, there are things Miko did that you actually can condemn her for. You don't need to spin one of the times she didn't do anything wrong in this painful-looking fashion.
    5) Torture is unambiguously evil. Paladins don't do evil things and stay unFallen--not because they want to and not because they can imagine a way that torturing one person will scare everyone else into acting better.
    6) "Not torturing is an evil act" is just plain goofy.
    7) Okay, you disagree with the Geneva Conventions. Given that we're not allowed to talk about real-world issues here, I have a question about D&D, specifically: Do you think there's even a minuscule chance that any of the authors who wrote the D&D alignments and/or the paladin class meant Not Torturing to be one of the evil acts a paladin falls for--or didn't mean Torturing to be one of the evil acts a paladin falls for?
    Last edited by Kish; 2010-04-12 at 08:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by taltamir View Post
    every study I have ever read that asked prisoners what their biggest fear was and it was always "an armed victim"...
    An armed victim != capital punishment. Punishment is different than self-defense.


    but I'd be playing devils advocate anyways if a person refused to acknowledge the mere existence of opposing viewpoints.
    Of course there are opposing viewpoints. But by RAW those viewpoints are wrong. Torture is evil in D&D.

    So regarding your "practical argument": are you sure that it is a deterrent? Why do areas with prison-rape have higher crime rates than areas without? Additionally, torture serves to attract publicity; highly-publicized crimes are more likely to be emulated.

    And besides: I can name a bunch of people who torture "wrongdoers". All of them are otherwise horrible people who mistreat their populace and/or spouse. If torturing evil people is right, shouldn't I know about some torturers who are really active in community service and help widows and bring joy to their neighbors?
    Last edited by Riffington; 2010-04-12 at 09:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by taltamir View Post
    by labeling the torture of child rapists wrong and evil and forbidden you are directly causing more children to be raped. Which is an evil act.
    This is NOT justifying "torture the evil act", that is saying that NOT torturing is an evil act.
    Major logical problem here. Banning torture as a punishment, does not "directly cause more crimes"

    Its indirect. That is, if you take the view that it has a contributory influence at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by taltamir View Post
    I thought it was pretty clear i was talking about others...
    I was using a metaphorical "you", not you specifically.

    Quote Originally Posted by taltamir View Post
    If you torture bob the child rapist to death, you save amber the 9 year old from being raped and murdered by james, because james heard what happened to bob and is too afraid to do so himself.
    You saved amber from james. Not saving amber from james because of some flimsy moralistic excuse (torture is always evil) is an evil act in of itself. I wasn't saying that torturing bob will make bob himself reform his ways
    You do not have to stoop to that level of force in order to deter a criminal.

    And "not saving" anyone is Neutral, not Evil. Yes, caring more about your own skin than someone else's is not Evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by taltamir View Post
    If you gave bob a second chance and released him on an unsuspecting public and like the other 98% of rapists released from prison he becomes a repeat offender you are DEFINITELY responsible for his victims and you have definitely done evil by releasing him.
    You cannot know that Bob will become a repeat offender, and if you have the belief that he might do so, you would not release him in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by taltamir View Post
    EDIT: and doing this sort of evil via an "ignorant" (according to my beliefs; not universal; many would say I am the one being ignorant) desire to do good is fairly understandable, very common, and forgivable to a degree.
    It is not Evil by D&D's standards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Szar_Lakol View Post
    And "not saving" anyone is Neutral, not Evil. Yes, caring more about your own skin than someone else's is not Evil.
    BoVD gives as an example- If you are fleeing monsters more powerful than you- and in order to escape, you must cross a dangerous mountainside that is highly likely to landslip and kill people, and you do it anyway (because you value your life more than theirs)- that's Evil.

    "Sacrificing others to save yourself is an evil act"

    As to the whole issue of deterrence- with not torturing people horribly being called an evil act because it leads to higher crime rate- imagine if alignment did work that way:

    Paladin ruler signs a decree replacing crucifixion with swift, relatively painless, beheadings for really serious crimes which are evil acts.

    DM: "20 more murders will happen because you reduced deterrence. You caused those 20 murders. You Fall."

    Paladin player: "Right! No more merciful beheadings!!"

    Doesn't sound very fair- or very consistant with D&D.

    Prohibitions on "cruel and unusual punishment" go back some way- and D&D morality tends to be based on more recent principles, such as that one.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-04-13 at 05:11 AM.
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    There is a difference in actively endangering others and simply not helping them. I am talking about the latter, not the former.

    EDIT: And please, stop looking at either the Book of Vile Darkness or the Book of Exalted Deeds for examples on what happens regarding alignment. Both books are utterly terrible in that regard. For every thing they get right, they get another thing wrong.
    Last edited by Taelas; 2010-04-13 at 06:19 AM.

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    Doesn't sound very fair- or very consistant with D&D
    D&D's writers have not, themselves, been entirely consistent as far as alignment is concerned. That's one reason we get into esoteric debates like this one.

    I'll leave it to other discussions whether the writers are otherwise consistent.
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    Indifference to the sufferings of others can be Neutral.

    However, taken to an extreme, it may fit part of the PHB description "This person simply has no compassion for others"- which is paired with "and will kill if doing so seems convenient"

    Not helping someone when doing so would put you at risk, is easier to justify as Neutral "A neutral person will risk themselves for friends or family, but generally not for strangers"

    But when helping someone in trouble won't put you at risk, ignoring their need for help may end up with the character very slowly slipping toward evil (if they ignore others in need a lot)

    "The easiest way for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing"-

    And when evil is triumphing, such "do-nothing" people, may end up slipping toward Neutral and Evil, if they keep doing nothing for long enough.

    The first line in Cheesegear's signature said it best:

    Standing by, while evil happens, is not Neutral. It's Evil.
    Only doing what interests you is not Neutral. It's Chaotic, and possibly Evil.
    Just because you're organised, that doesn't mean you're Lawful.
    Evil people want friends too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Szar_Lakol View Post
    EDIT: And please, stop looking at either the Book of Vile Darkness or the Book of Exalted Deeds for examples on what happens regarding alignment. Both books are utterly terrible in that regard. For every thing they get right, they get another thing wrong.
    What other in-depth alignment sourcebooks are there?

    And which things do you deem them as having "gotten right" and which "gotten wrong"?

    Personally I'd say the "context matters" bit, concerning the paladin and the landslide, is bang on.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-04-13 at 06:24 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by taltamir View Post
    That is one possible interpretation, but it is certainly arguable against.
    Or maybe it is evil to NOT torture under such circumstances... by labeling the torture of child rapists wrong and evil and forbidden you are directly causing more children to be raped. Which is an evil act.
    This is NOT justifying "torture the evil act", that is saying that NOT torturing is an evil act.
    There is nothing to indicate that torturing child molesters reduces molesting. When people are committing a crime most of them aren't really thinking about the consequences, that's why they commit crimes. Deterrence isn't that useful. Perhaps horrible torture would deter a few but at the cost of making horrible torture a part of your justice system, an accepted routine act. The evil caused by that could just as well be greater than not doing anything.
    There are also usually ways of combating crimes that are both good and effective. You mentioned prison rape but where I live that's not a big problem and our crime rate is much lower than in most of the US. There may not be a direct link but it shows that you can have low crime without prison rape. Conversely you can probably also have low rates of child molestation without horrible torture.

    Quote Originally Posted by taltamir View Post
    And what the hell is wrong with JUSTIFYING actions? You better have a pretty damn good justifications for moral choices you make otherwise you are just randomly doing things without sense or reason. Justifying things means "making them just", and its a pretty good term because it can do exactly that when done CORRECTLY.
    My point would be that you can justify the use of evil acts as necessary but that doesn't make the act good. Heck you can justify genocide by saying it's for the greater good. This touches on that point in most cases you can't accurately predict the consequences of your actions. You have to think whether the act is good in itself. You have no way of knowing your horrible torture will result in anything positive but you definitely know that you just did something horrible. I think with the absolute morality of D&D this would have to be the benchmark. What if your torture wasn't an effective deterrence, does the Paladin fall when the crime rates for the next year are tallied? Is the intention of torturing for good enough, wouldn't that not allow for a whole slew of horrible "good" acts by the well intentioned extremists of the world?

    Torture is evil. It leads down a slippery slope, it's ineffective, it's the barbaric calculated infliction of pain on a human being. Balancing such evil acts against good intentions might slip as neutral. Who know maybe there are times when you need a morally neutral anti-hero to dispense with the pleasantries but that doesn't change that in general such actions cause pain and misery and that we'd all be better of if everyone were good. In a cynical setting (most likely including real life) being good may not be the obvious moral choice and being good is probably pretty hard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Indifference to the sufferings of others can be Neutral.

    However, taken to an extreme, it may fit part of the PHB description "This person simply has no compassion for others"- which is paired with "and will kill if doing so seems convenient"

    Not helping someone when doing so would put you at risk, is easier to justify as Neutral "A neutral person will risk themselves for friends or family, but generally not for strangers"

    But when helping someone in trouble won't put you at risk, ignoring their need for help may end up with the character very slowly slipping toward evil (if they ignore others in need a lot)
    If you are not helping someone, you are simply not Good, you are not automatically Evil.

    Having no compassion does not make you Evil either, unless you combine it with "will kill if doing so is convenient". It is certainly a step closer than someone who does have compassion, but it is still not Evil outright.

    It does not matter whether helping someone will put you at risk or not. Choosing to do nothing is Neutral.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "The easiest way for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing"-

    And when evil is triumphing, such "do-nothing" people, may end up slipping toward Neutral and Evil, if they keep doing nothing for long enough.
    No. You do not simply become Evil without actually doing Evil. Refusing to do Good DOES NOT make you Evil. Period.

    That quote does not concern the D&D alignment system. In most morality systems, if you are not good, you must be evil. In D&D, the default alignment is not Good -- it is Neutral.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    What other in-depth alignment sourcebooks are there?
    None that I am aware of. That changes nothing regarding their quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    And which things do you deem them as having "gotten right" and which "gotten wrong"?
    Half the examples I see quoted are so misleading that they give people the wrong conclusion. The one you just gave, for instance. It is an Evil act because you kill people who are not actively threatening you simply because it is necessary for you to save your own life. Killing someone who directly threatens you, however, is a pure Neutral act.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Personally I'd say the "context matters" bit, concerning the paladin and the landslide, is bang on.
    Context always matters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Szar_Lakol View Post
    Context always matters.
    Except in the case of torture (defined by BoED, and FC2, as evil, regardless of how many lives it might save).

    BoED points out that it is required for Good characters to help others (when that help is genuinely needed)- a Good guy can investigate before helping- but they can't just say "I'm not helping" and remain good- if they keep doing that nearly every time help is needed.

    Being good requires more than not committing evil acts, and doing the occasional Good act- it's a standard of behaviour, that requires the character to act in a consistantly altruistic way.

    If a Good character ceases to behave in that fashion (by repeatedly not helping others when that help is visibly needed)- the character will start to move away from Good.

    Whether "not helping" is a Neutral rather than Evil act, or not.

    It's true that a Good character can't help everyone, and may have to prioritize, but when they reach the point of routinely not helping when the help is visibly needed and there's nothing stopping them (such as a really urgent mission)- they won't be Good anymore.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-04-13 at 08:45 AM.
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  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Telonius's Avatar

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    Default Re: Paladins choice

    For another perspective, let's take the issue of the Gray Guard (CSco). I think that just about everybody would say that they have a much more morally flexible point of view than a typical Paladin. But there are still some lines that even they aren't allowed to cross.

    Specifically called out as being unforgivably evil:
    - Slaughtering innocents
    - Despoiling a temple of your faith

    So we have at least two examples of Always Evil acts from a source outside of BoED - and from a class that many people feel makes it too easy to commit evil acts in the service of good. I think that this is a pretty good yardstick to determine where other "unforgivably evil" acts might be. If it's worse than despoiling a temple of your faith, it's evil.

  25. - Top - End - #115
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    Default Re: Paladins choice

    Fiendish Codex 2 has a short list of Corrupt acts (ones which can send the Lawful character to the Nine Hells regardless of their actual alignment, if there's enough not atoned for.

    Desecrating a Good temple was one.

    Stealing from the needy was another.

    Torture (which ranges in evilness from intimidating torture, that does not involve inflicting lethal damage, to indescribable torture, that involves inflicting a great deal of damage) was a third.

    Murder (unfortunately not explicitly defined in D&D) was a fourth- with "ordinary" murder being least bad "cold-blooded" murder being worse, and "murder for pleasure" being worst of all.



    on the question of whether "doing nothing" can itself be an act with moral weight- there is an old joke:

    Student- "Should I be punished for something I haven't done?"
    Head- "No."
    Student- "Good- cos I haven't done my homework."


    A sentry who does nothing but watch while enemy scouts break into the castle he's guarding will get court-martialled, a doctor who does nothing but watch when sick people in urgent need of treatment are brought in when he's on duty, will get fired,

    and a Paladin who does nothing but watch while evil deeds are committed in front of him, will probably fall- as might a Paladin who does nothing but watch while a person dies who could be saved by him at little effort.

    Good characters have a duty to others- there are times when doing nothing at all, is a dereliction of that duty.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-04-13 at 11:38 AM.
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