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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    DrowGuy

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    Default A stab at houserules for full casters

    Whilst I would not consider myself an expert on the mechanics of DnD I am fairly confident that I do have considerable knowledge of it and the flaws of the full casters. So I thought I may as well try and think of my own set of houserules to amend this.

    1. All spells that can be cast as a standard action now require a 1 round to cast. Spells that already took 1 round to cast can be nerfed according to the DM.

    This means casters will still be vulnerable to having their spells being interrupted in combat, and should encourage greater use of pre-combat buffing, which if often considered to be less of a problem, and conveniently enough bring me to my next rule.


    2. A creature can benefit from a maximum of 1 buff per school of magic. If a new spell is cast on the creature that conflict with another already active, the creature chooses which one to keep. For the purpose of this houserule, a buff is a spell that has “target: you” and/or “saving throw: yes (harmless)”, but a duration longer than instantaneous. This extends to spells replicated by magical items, when the effect of said item is not continuous.

    This should keep casters from covering their every basses with a spell which becomes problematic at higher levels where 1 hour/caster level may as well be all day. I am sure this houserule also kills some fun melee combos, but I doubt it is a huge nerf to non-casters.

    These two houserules should do a good job at preventing casters from being overpowered in combat. I.e., the easier half of the problem. Now for the harder part: casters breaking the game out of combat.

    3. Almost all spells cast leave behind a lingering presence in the square they were cast and (when applicable) the creature they targeted. Invisible to the naked eye they can only be observed by someone under the affect of the 1st level track magic spell (to be properly stated out latter) where they appear as a sparkly of brightly coloured flecks of energy. As a move equivalent action, an observer can make a spellcraft or intelligence check to learn more info about the spell and its caster. To identify the exact spell cast, the DC is equal to 5 + the spell’s level. Additionally, by rolling higher than the caster’s CL, the astral frequency of spell’s weaver is revealed. This is a code of 15 symbols; each caster has their own unique one. The lingering presence of a spell last for a number of days equal to the spells level.

    This is made to add a risk to casting spells. Do it too often, and you risk granting your opponent a potentially powerful piece of knowledge about yourself, not to mention a trail of cookie crumbs to whoever knows your astral code. Reserve feats and magical items leave behind a lingering presence but no astral frequency, the former being raw gouts of energy, the latter having no direct contact with the user. Staffs and any other items that use your caster level are an exception to this rule.

    Note: I plan to have more spells relating to the astral frequency of a caster, but I am not making this houserule only to have a 2nd level spell Hide Code. Removing your astral frequency from a single lingering presence would be a 7th level spell with a casting time of at least 1 hour (the spell to remove the lingering presence would itself not leave one naturally). Changing your astral frequency would be a 9th (if not epic) level spell, with a 25k gp material component, leave you unable to cast spells for a week and 1 creature could benefit from the spell only 1 every decade.

    4. Add risks to spells that can be abused in ways that are most relevant when the spell is used in its most problematic way. Yeah I know, this isn’t really a houserule, it more like telling the DM to use rule 0 to fix everything, which fixes nothing. But, my goal is to make a list of these spells and their risks to make less abuse able. For example, our beloved rope trick. Proposed solution:

    If a creature enters the space created by a casting of rope trick before 24 hours has elapsed since it exited a space created by rope trick (now that was worded awfully) there is a stance the continual exposure to the unstable extra dimensional matter will cause an ill affect to occur. The chance is 5%, +5% for every time the creature enters waiting for 24 hours to elapse between castings. Roll once for each creature that enters and consult the following table:

    1: Creature is ejected from the space back onto whichever plane it entered from after just 10 minutes.

    2 – 5: Creature becomes atoned to the air inside the pocket. Upon leaving they find the air too thin or heavy and

    6-9: Random extraplanar creature of appropriate CR enters pocket, focusing attack on creature indicated by this roll

    10 – If this is rolled for a single creature in the bubble, ignore all the other affects for the other creatures and apply this one to all. Nothing bad happens, but the pocket’s exit now leads to a different plane, determined by the DM.

    Now, rope trick is still a powerful spell. It provides secure and hard to detect (it will be one of the few spells exempt from leaving a lingering presence) shelter for a nights rest, with no chance of an ill affect. But if you cast this spell for every night's rest, luck will eventually bite back. Just make sure you warn the players of these houserules or else they will be justifiably annoyed with you.

    Hopefully together we can make many more such examples that will eventually allow someone to use as a guidelines to quickly assign a risk to a spell not specifically covered.

    I am sure there are still some holes left, but what do you think of this for a first attempt?
    Last edited by Boci; 2010-04-08 at 02:10 PM.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

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    Flickerdart's Avatar

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    A full-round action and a 1 round action are not the same thing. Evidently you intended the latter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    A full-round action and a 1 round action are not the same thing. Evidently you intended the latter.
    Right you are, fixed.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Whilst I would not consider myself an expert on the mechanics of DnD I am fairly confident that I do have considerable knowledge of it and the flaws of the full casters. So I thought I may as well try and think of my own set of houserules to amend this.

    1. All spells that can be cast as a standard action now require a full round action to cast. Spells that were already a full round action to cast can be nerfed according to the DM.

    This means casters will still be vulnerable to having their spells being interrupted in combat, and should encourage greater use of pre-combat buffing, which if often considered to be less of a problem, and conveniently enough bring me to my next rule.
    Reasonable enough, but a full round action isn't more interruptable. Did you mean a casting time of one round, such that it goes off at the beginning of their next turn?

    2. A creature can benefit from a maximum of 1 buff per school of magic. If a new spell is cast on the creature that conflict with another already active, the creature chooses which one to keep. For the purpose of this houserule, a buff is a spell that has “target: you” and/or “saving throw: yes (harmless)”, but a duration longer than instantaneous. This extends to spells replicated by magical items, when the effect of said item is not continuous.
    Bad idea. You want to encourage casters to buff party members... it distributes their power amongst the rest of the group. Remember that "overpowered" generally means "more powerful than the rest of the group."

    3. Almost all spells cast leave behind a lingering presence in the square they were cast and (when applicable) the creature they targeted. Invisible to the naked eye they can only be observed by someone under the affect of the 1st level track magic spell (to be properly stated out latter) where they appear as a sparkly of brightly coloured flecks of energy. As a move equivalent action, an observer can make a spellcraft or intelligence check to learn more info about the spell and its caster. To identify the exact spell cast, the DC is equal to 5 + the spell’s level. Additionally, by rolling higher than the caster’s CL, the astral frequency of spell’s weaver is revealed. This is a code of 15 symbols; each caster has their own unique one. The lingering presence of a spell last for a number of days equal to the spells level.
    Why not use Detect Magic for this?

    This is made to add a risk to casting spells. Do it too often, and you risk granting your opponent a potentially powerful piece of knowledge about yourself, not to mention a trail of cookie crumbs to whoever knows your astral code. Reserve feats and magical items leave behind a lingering presence but no astral frequency, the former being raw gouts of energy, the latter having no direct contact with the user. Staffs and any other items that use your caster level are an exception to this rule.
    All this does is say who cast the spell. That's not hugely useful, especially in a game where casters can do things like teleport to other planes and disappear from the local radar.

    4. Add risks to spells that can be abused in ways that are most relevant when the spell is used in its most problematic way. Yeah I know, this isn’t really a houserule, it more like telling the DM to use rule 0 to fix everything, which fixes nothing. But, my goal is to make a list of these spells and their risks to make less abuse able. For example, our beloved rope trick. Proposed solution:
    Risks are really annoying as gameplay mechanics. You either find a way to negate the risk or deal with the risk or don't cast the spell, but either way it's just annoying. If you don't want them abusing the spell, remove the abuse... don't just keep the abuse and then punish them for using it, as that really doesn't help. A better proposed solution to rope trick is that the opening to the rope trick is still visible or easy to enter, but you can use a hide check to hide the opening. It's only a second level spell, after all.

    I think what you really need to do is define in general what is overpowered about casters, then make specific changes to those things. For example, one overpowered thing is that they spend short term reusable resources (spell slots) for long term permanent gains (Wall of Stone, Fabricate, etc). Thus, all spells that last extremely long or permanently must have associated costs that last as least as long as the spell. Fabricate should either "unmake" itself after a set period of time or have some additional permanent cost, for example.

    JaronK

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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    Reasonable enough, but a full round action isn't more interruptable. Did you mean a casting time of one round, such that it goes off at the beginning of their next turn?
    Yeah, I edited the post.



    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    Bad idea. You want to encourage casters to buff party members... it distributes their power amongst the rest of the group. Remember that "overpowered" generally means "more powerful than the rest of the group."
    How reguarly are party members buffed with more than 1 spell from a single school of magic?

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    Why not use Detect Magic for this?
    Its a 0 level spell and I was worried that would make it too powerful.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    All this does is say who cast the spell. That's not hugely useful, especially in a game where casters can do things like teleport to other planes and disappear from the local radar.
    You don't think caster's leaving behind their signiture is relevant? No more stealth operations for starters. Especially since I said I was going to exspand on that. Assuming I leave teleport untouched (as an oppose to allowing you to teleport from to a list of specific sights) I will make someway to find out what the exact variables of the spell were, such as destination of plane shift or teleport.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    Risks are really annoying as gameplay mechanics. You either find a way to negate the risk or deal with the risk or don't cast the spell, but either way it's just annoying. If you don't want them abusing the spell, remove the abuse... don't just keep the abuse and then punish them for using it, as that really doesn't help. A better proposed solution to rope trick is that the opening to the rope trick is still visible or easy to enter, but you can use a hide check to hide the opening. It's only a second level spell, after all.
    If you don't want anything bad to happen to you for using rope trick don't cast it anymore than every other day. There, now you will never trigger the ill effect. Use it more often at your own risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    I think what you really need to do is define in general what is overpowered about casters, then make specific changes to those things. For example, one overpowered thing is that they spend short term reusable resources (spell slots) for long term permanent gains (Wall of Stone, Fabricate, etc). Thus, all spells that last extremely long or permanently must have associated costs that last as least as long as the spell. Fabricate should either "unmake" itself after a set period of time or have some additional permanent cost, for example.

    JaronK
    Good point, I'll make note of that. Wall of stone could be become really brittle after a while (save, 1 hour / caster level), like chalk or softer.
    Last edited by Boci; 2010-04-08 at 03:32 PM.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    A significant part of why magic is overpowered is that oftentimes, the only way to counter magic is with other magic (Mind Blank, True Seeing, etc). Giving some way for the nonmagical types to defend against the offensive/defensive spell arms race would help the balance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    A significant part of why magic is overpowered is that oftentimes, the only way to counter magic is with other magic (Mind Blank, True Seeing, etc). Giving some way for the nonmagical types to defend against the offensive/defensive spell arms race would help the balance.
    Tome of Battle? Besides, non-casters will always rely on casters. Rather than try and fight that I am trying to make situation where casters rely on non-casters more frequent.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    How reguarly are party members buffed with more than 1 spell from a single school of magic?
    Quite often enlarge and (bull str, bears endurance,etc) and stone skin and there are others. That specific nerf would destroy the buff others ability of transmutation and abjuration.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Its a 0 level spell and I was worried that would make it too powerful.
    I would keep the skill check but add it to detect magic. I would also make the base DC higher (start at like 10 or 15 or what ever the standard tracking rules are).

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    You don't think caster's leaving behind their signiture is relevant? No more stealth operations for starters. Especially since I said I was going to exspand on that. Assuming I leave teleport untouched (as an oppose to allowing you to teleport from to a list of specific sights) I will make someway to find out what the exact variables of the spell were, such as destination of plane shift or teleport.
    I would look at the psionic power anticipate teleport for ideas.



    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    If you don't want anything bad to happen to you for using rope trick don't cast it anymore than every other day. There, now you will never trigger the ill effect. Use it more often at your own risk.
    We all ways played with it leaving a gaping hole in the sky/room/what ever that any one standing below it could see into. You could still roll up the rope to make it harder to get in but any one with Fly/ a bow could try to target you.

    Kinda like it makes enough room for people to lay down and what not.



    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Good point, I'll make note of that. Wall of stone could be become really brittle after a while (save, 1 hour / caster level), like chalk or softer.
    Is wall of stone that much of a problem?



    Edit:
    I also found nerfing bonus spells helps as well. (for full casters)
    Last edited by RagnaroksChosen; 2010-04-08 at 03:43 PM.
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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Tome of Battle? Besides, non-casters will always rely on casters. Rather than try and fight that I am trying to make situation where casters rely on non-casters more frequent.
    ToB gives melee more options, but doesn't much protect them.

    You could go the other way, and make magic less capable of countering melee. Sword against sword, spell against spell, that sort of thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
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    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    Quote Originally Posted by RagnaroksChosen View Post
    Quite often enlarge and (bull str, bears endurance,etc) and stone skin and there are others. That specific nerf would destroy the buff others ability of transmutation and abjuration.
    I dunno. You've got a point, but I still think this houserule hurts fullcasters more than non-casters. Ability enhancers do not stack with items, and stoneskin + enlarge is a good combo, but melee can survive without it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RagnaroksChosen View Post
    I would keep the skill check but add it to detect magic. I would also make the base DC higher (start at like 10 or 15 or what ever the standard tracking rules are).
    I want the DC to be really though to increase the chance of the wizard's astral frequency being discovered.

    Quote Originally Posted by RagnaroksChosen View Post
    I would look at the psionic power anticipate teleport for ideas.
    Not quite what I had in mind, assuming its identicle to the arcane equivilant in complete arcane, but i will have a look.

    Quote Originally Posted by RagnaroksChosen View Post
    We all ways played with it leaving a gaping hole in the sky/room/what ever that any one standing below it could see into. You could still roll up the rope to make it harder to get in but any one with Fly/ a bow could try to target you.
    Since you're the second person to suggest this I will consider the option.

    Quote Originally Posted by RagnaroksChosen View Post
    Is wall of stone that much of a problem?
    More symbolic that casters cannot create something permenant.

    Quote Originally Posted by RagnaroksChosen View Post
    Edit:
    I also found nerfing bonus spells helps as well. (for full casters)
    I'm sure. Test of spite is a good place to start.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    ToB gives melee more options, but doesn't much protect them.
    There are a couple of meneuvers that help with saves, high touch AC or miss chance can help against spells that require a touch attack, did I miss anything?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    You could go the other way, and make magic less capable of countering melee. Sword against sword, spell against spell, that sort of thing.
    Do you have any specific houserules towards this?
    Last edited by Boci; 2010-04-08 at 04:00 PM.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    One thing my group does is this:

    All casters require two casting stats, ala the favored soul. One increases DC, one increases spells per day.

    Failed or interupted spells produce magical backlash of 1d6 per spell level. SUCCESSFUL spells still cause magical backlash of 1 nonlethal per spell level.

    We require a full round action to cast a spell.

    All spells requires a caster to perform a concentration check to succeed. The DC is equal to 5 times the spell level. A caster can "extend" a spells casting by one, two or three additional rounds, and roll an additional d20 when
    making their check.

    Enemies with spell like abilities can either do a concentration check or an attack roll to perform their spell like abilities (same DC as the concentration DC). Wands Require a use magical device check equal to the spells concentration DC to use.

    Higher saves all around. High DCs are 3/4, low DC's are 1/2 (Basically, at level 20 you're looking at 15/10 natural DCs instead of 12/6's).

    Most abusive spells, such as rope trick or shivering touch have been nerfed/changed.
    Monk sucks, but you know, it's not actually worth negative LA.

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    Quote Originally Posted by krossbow View Post
    One thing my group does is this:

    All casters require two casting stats, ala the favored soul. One increases DC, one increases spells per day.
    I like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by krossbow View Post
    Failed or interupted spells produce magical backlash of 1d6 per spell level. SUCCESSFUL spells still cause magical backlash of 1 nonlethal per spell level.
    Are you sure thats required? Sounds a bit harsh.

    Quote Originally Posted by krossbow View Post
    We require a full round action to cast a spell.
    Do you mean 1 round? (I made the same mistake)

    Quote Originally Posted by krossbow View Post
    All spells requires a caster to perform a concentration check to succeed. The DC is equal to 5 times the spell level. A caster can "extend" a spells casting by one, two or three additional rounds, and roll an additional d20 when
    making their check.

    Enemies with spell like abilities can either do a concentration check or an attack roll to perform their spell like abilities (same DC as the concentration DC). Wands Require a use magical device check equal to the spells concentration DC to use.
    This just seems unnessicary.

    Quote Originally Posted by krossbow View Post
    Higher saves all around. High DCs are 3/4, low DC's are 1/2 (Basically, at level 20 you're looking at 15/10 natural DCs instead of 12/6's).
    Again, not so sure on this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by krossbow View Post
    Most abusive spells, such as rope trick or shivering touch have been nerfed/changed.
    Obviously. I always thought the most logical one for shivering touch was to make it a penalty. What does your group do?
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    How reguarly are party members buffed with more than 1 spell from a single school of magic?
    This is why I generally ignore these houserule threads.

    A fighter would want any and (often) all of the following:

    Prot Arrows
    Prot/Magic Circle
    Stoneskin
    Mind Blank

    Bear's Endurance
    Bull's Strength
    Cat's Grace
    Enlarge Person
    Haste
    Fly
    Polymorph
    Barkskin

    And that's just core, using all wizard/sorc spells + barkskin.

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    I dunno. You've got a point, but I still think this houserule hurts fullcasters more than non-casters. Ability enhancers do not stack with items, and stoneskin + enlarge is a good combo, but melee can survive without it.
    I wouldn't do it if you have a player wanting to play a buffer. Also look at cleric and druid buffs when thinking about this not just arcane.
    When the end comes i shall remember you.

    I sorry i fail Englimish...(appologise for Spelling/Grammer Errors) Please don't correct my spelling or grammer eaither.

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    How reguarly are party members buffed with more than 1 spell from a single school of magic?
    DMM Persistant Clerics will do it regularly (I persist Lesser Mass Vigor, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, and Recitation... then I start casting buffs). War Weavers do as well. Frankly, I think the one area you really don't want to nerf is party buffs. You might actually consider making it harder to buff yourself while making it just as easy to buff others.

    Its a 0 level spell and I was worried that would make it too powerful.
    Making it first level doesn't change much. Besides, all it does is track magic... making that easy is what you want, right?

    You don't think caster's leaving behind their signiture is relevant? No more stealth operations for starters. Especially since I said I was going to exspand on that. Assuming I leave teleport untouched (as an oppose to allowing you to teleport from to a list of specific sights) I will make someway to find out what the exact variables of the spell were, such as destination of plane shift or teleport.
    You'd have to do a lot with that. It's possible, but it's not a huge deal, especially if you then give casters the ability to clean up their signature. However, I suspect a lot of players would respond by simply completely annihilating all opposition... no one can track you if you're dead. If you want to clear a dungeon, just make sure to clear it completely, then destroy the entrance and leave. No one will ever find the signatures.

    If you don't want anything bad to happen to you for using rope trick don't cast it anymore than every other day. There, now you will never trigger the ill effect. Use it more often at your own risk.
    Then the risk nerf does nothing, really.

    Wall of Stone was just an example by the way. There are many spells that create significant power increases permanently with insignificant long term costs. Fabricate is a huge one. Animate Dead can be all kinds of abused. Animate Dread Warrior too, if you can make it spell like.

    JaronK

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    You could go the other way, and make magic less capable of countering melee. Sword against sword, spell against spell, that sort of thing.
    Maybe something like an attunement stat that increases your spells' DCs but also increases your susceptibility to them? Hmm...
    Formerly known as Cariyaga.

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Are you sure thats required? Sounds a bit harsh.

    Eh, i've seen what casters can do unchecked, so i generally err on being too harsh on them. My group tries to avoid just slapping them on the wrist. Overall, it seems to have worked decently; your lower level spells function more or less fine, while your maximum level ones are a gamble.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    I always thought the most logical one for shivering touch was to make it a penalty. What does your group do?
    Reduces the effects down to 2d6, and allows a fortitude save for half.
    Last edited by krossbow; 2010-04-08 at 06:06 PM.
    Monk sucks, but you know, it's not actually worth negative LA.

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    Many good caster nerfs can be had by tinkering with other classes. For example, I houseruled the ranger's woodland stride ability into the scout's peerless stride, and allowed that peerless stride is effective even against magical barriers like entangle, wall of sand, and wall of thorns. Monk purity of body works against magical and supernatural diseases. Damage reduction granted by certain spells can be bypassed by cold iron weapons.

    The concept here is not to nerf the spellcasting per se, but to eliminate the asymmetric "you need magic to defeat magic" pattern that pervades 3.5. The downside is that because that pattern is so pervasive, you'll need a battery of houserules to break it down, which means a lot of time spent writing them out, and the risk that you and your players won't remember them when they're applicable.
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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Superglucose View Post
    This is why I generally ignore these houserule threads.
    Huh? I'm not saying melee doesn't need buff or magical items, I'm just saying how many spells do they usually get cast on them by the party's wizard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Superglucose View Post
    A fighter would want any and (often) all of the following:
    Okay, the fighter wants these spells. How often do they get all of them in the games you play? Assuming you have a fighter and a rogue, there are very few ways to get all these spells on them for each fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superglucose View Post
    And that's just core, using all wizard/sorc spells + barkskin.
    I am not denying this hurts melee, but don't you agree it hurts casters more?

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    DMM Persistant Clerics will do it regularly (I persist Lesser Mass Vigor, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, and Recitation... then I start casting buffs). War Weavers do as well. Frankly, I think the one area you really don't want to nerf is party buffs.
    Dammit, this is a hard one. I am at least right in assuming that a caster buffing himself with multiple hour/level spells is a source of significant power for them?

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    You might actually consider making it harder to buff yourself while making it just as easy to buff others.
    I considered that but a certain degree of internal consistency is neccissary.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    Making it first level doesn't change much. Besides, all it does is track magic... making that easy is what you want, right?
    Fair point.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    You'd have to do a lot with that. It's possible, but it's not a huge deal, especially if you then give casters the ability to clean up their signature.
    It would be 7th level minimum and probably cost 1k per casting. Not too much, but you cannot really afford to erase every single signiture.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    However, I suspect a lot of players would respond by simply completely annihilating all opposition... no one can track you if you're dead. If you want to clear a dungeon, just make sure to clear it completely, then destroy the entrance and leave. No one will ever find the signatures.
    I was under the impression that if the players don't annihilating all opposition, then that was because they couldn't. Also, when I DM, civilization is never that far away from the PCs, so brute force doesn't always work. But yes, I hadn't considered that it would be almost meaningless if the whole game was a dungeon crawl.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    Then the risk nerf does nothing, really.
    Basically, most of the complaints I've seen on the forume about rope trick involve the PCs using it every night and thats what I was trying to combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    Wall of Stone was just an example by the way. There are many spells that create significant power increases permanently with insignificant long term costs. Fabricate is a huge one. Animate Dead can be all kinds of abused. Animate Dread Warrior too, if you can make it spell like.

    JaronK
    If I make a list for every spell in core I should be able to use it for guidlines when dealing with splat book ones. For animate dead, its only abused with certain corpses right? So you could just inform players that sometimes the corpse will loose NA and/or strength, if either one is high for its CR and it has few special abilties to loose.
    Last edited by Boci; 2010-04-08 at 07:00 PM.
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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    How about this:
    All full casters have
    • Bardic Spell Progression
    • Int for spells-per-day
    • Wis for max spell level
    • Cha for spell DCs

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Assuming you have a fighter and a rogue, there are very few ways to get all these spells on them for each fight.
    But one of them in particular is so powerful, it is worth the lost caster level. Time Stops for the whole party? Yes, please!

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    Quote Originally Posted by sofawall View Post
    But one of them in particular is so powerful, it is worth the lost caster level. Time Stops for the whole party? Yes, please!
    Are you refering to the war weaver PrC?
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    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Dammit, this is a hard one. I am at least right in assuming that a caster buffing himself with multiple hour/level spells is a source of significant power for them?
    Yes, but the solution is probably to make it so he can't cast them on himself, or to make all his good buffs group buffs (and making necessary changes to said spells). Deleting a few of the self only buffs (like Divine Power) is probably wise as well.

    I considered that but a certain degree of internal consistency is neccissary.
    Perhaps, but if the goal of a Cleric's power is to spread his god's influence around the world, it makes sense that he be good at buffing others more than himself.

    For animate dead, its only abused with certain corpses right? So you could just inform players that sometimes the corpse will loose NA and/or strength, if either one is high for its CR and it has few special abilties to loose.
    Animate Dead costs you almost nothing (no spell slots after the first day, minimal gp cost) and gives you more actions (in the form of attacks from your minions). That's the issue. Any spell like that is going to lead to problems.

    JaronK

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Are you refering to the war weaver PrC?
    War Weavers can't cast Time Stop into the weave, but it sounded like that was what he was talking about...

    JaronK

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    I think it might also be good to look through some common powerful spells (especially spells that are "no buttons") and modify them.

    For example, change wind wall to merely give a +4 bonus to effective AC against projectile weapons instead of automatically deflect arrows.

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Merk View Post
    I think it might also be good to look through some common powerful spells (especially spells that are "no buttons") and modify them.

    For example, change wind wall to merely give a +4 bonus to effective AC against projectile weapons instead of automatically deflect arrows.
    I think a miss chance would be more apropriate, but yes I catch your meaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    Perhaps, but if the goal of a Cleric's power is to spread his god's influence around the world, it makes sense that he be good at buffing others more than himself.
    Still leaves the other full casters, and that doesn't sound like something that would be a universal trait amoungst clerics.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    Animate Dead costs you almost nothing (no spell slots after the first day, minimal gp cost) and gives you more actions (in the form of attacks from your minions). That's the issue. Any spell like that is going to lead to problems.

    JaronK
    You get weak soldier who will be slower than the party and weaker. Would you suggest removing the material component and making the duration 1 day or something?
    Last edited by Boci; 2010-04-08 at 07:59 PM.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
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    So please kill yourself and save this land,
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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    How about just agreeing on an approximate power level, and having everyone agree not to surpass that? If one or more players are routinely outstripping the other characters, that won't change no matter if you make everyone play Adepts or Fighters. If the whole group is using the overpowered nature of full casters, than boost the difficulty of encounters without boosting XP.
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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    How reguarly are party members buffed with more than 1 spell from a single school of magic?
    I don't know about you, but I love Polymorphing my Fighter buddy and then throwing Haste onto him. Or using Animalistic Power+Haste with the Dragon Mag feat that makes the bonuses to ability scores 2 higher.


    Or, you know, Protection from X and Resist Energy?

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    To give you an idea of how many buffs people want, in the Test of Spite threads, buffs, with all day buffs and three buff rounds, generally involved around 10 buffs at the least. Buffs are very, very useful, whether on the wizard, the cleric, the barbarian, the summoned critters, the animal cohort, the bard, the ranger, or whoever else you can think of.

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    Default Re: A stab at houserules for full casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    To give you an idea of how many buffs people want, in the Test of Spite threads, buffs, with all day buffs and three buff rounds, generally involved around 10 buffs at the least. Buffs are very, very useful, whether on the wizard, the cleric, the barbarian, the summoned critters, the animal cohort, the bard, the ranger, or whoever else you can think of.
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