Rules on making spells and new base classes

[Flail_master]

hey guys i know this is an amateur question, but i been lookin through my 3.5 rulebooks and i cant find the rules on making spells or new classes!

its a bit early but we've been planning to play an Evil campaign after our current one (and a bit of Traveller :P) and i'd really like to DM it, so i've been trying to gather some stuff up, and recently, try and make an awesome campaign in advance, at least the basics.

got looooads of ideas and page numbers in which books would be useful, as well as perhaps any other pages which may be helpful to me

[Dust]

I think you'll find that homebrewing new classes especially isn't really 'the basics.' You'd be better off asking around here (or better yet, getting familiar with one of the knowledge encyclopedias online) when you get stuck and need to find that special prestige class, feat or spell to fit your needs - there's a ton out there.

[Flail_master]

I think you'll find that homebrewing new classes especially isn't really 'the basics.'

lol fair enough, :P but im pretty adamant on makin a new class for the BBEG as well as some spells for him, perhas it is best to consult the forums here, i would like to make this stuff myself however so any link to a thread thats got templates or guides perhaps would be awesome

not like im short on time :P

[Starbuck_II]

hey guys i know this is an amateur question, but i been lookin through my 3.5 rulebooks and i cant find the rules on making spells or new classes!

its a bit early but we've been planning to play an Evil campaign after our current one (and a bit of Traveller :P) and i'd really like to DM it, so i've been trying to gather some stuff up, and recently, try and make an awesome campaign in advance, at least the basics.

got looooads of ideas and page numbers in which books would be useful, as well as perhaps any other pages which may be helpful to me

DMG has some rules. It also ignores them sometimes, but the idea behund them is pretty good.
Never make a spell a lower than level than an official spell that does same thing. No 2nd lv fireballs with same mechanics (something should be different).

No one base class should get more feats (having access to more is okay, but not total number given) than Fighter.

[krossbow]

DMG has some rules. It also ignores them sometimes, but the idea behund them is pretty good.
Never make a spell a lower than level than an official spell that does same thing. No 2nd lv fireballs with same mechanics (something should be different).

No one base class should get more feats (having access to more is okay, but not total number given) than Fighter.

The issue here is your saying: "No being better than gimped/crippled classes and crappy spells"


However, he has a point there. you never want to make redundant but better versions-- usually. If your group agrees that certain things are weak/underpowered, like evocation or fighters, then there's nothing stopping your group from trying to make better versions. note i say group however; such things would need at least the DM's agreement, if not other players.

[Kylarra]

Pretty much the best guideline you have for homebrew is to find a baseline and to not exceed it. Custom spells should generally be weaker than official counterparts. Custom classes need to have their own niches and shouldn't exceed say a baseline of tier 3-4 classes in terms of potential power.

[Volthawk]

Not official, but this is useful.

[Kylarra]

The issue here is your saying: "No being better than gimped/crippled classes and crappy spells"


However, he has a point there. you never want to make redundant but better versions-- usually. If your group agrees that certain things are weak/underpowered, like evocation or fighters, then there's nothing stopping your group from trying to make better versions. note i say group however; such things would need at least the DM's agreement, if not other players.

Speaking from experience, it's better to lowball your custom class/spell/equips and beef it up later if necessary than to try to do the reverse, particularly if we're talking a BBEG.

[Godskook]

To homebrew well, I recommend the following:

1.Read up on Theoretical Optimization characters, such as pun-pun and cindy. This'll give you an idea of what kinds of thinks break easy.

2.Read up on a really good house-rule set, such as Test of Spite's. This'll should give you a list of most of the currently broken things in 3.5.

3.Read the Tier List and estimate how well your group optimizes.

4.Read homebrew by acclaimed homebrewers, such as Fax Celestis or Krimm Blackleaf. This'll give you an idea of what good homebrew looks like, and somewhat show you the thoughtprocess they went through to make their stuff.

5.Compare your homebrew to things that do what it does already. If it has a breath weapon, compare it to D-Shaman or DFA. If it casts 9th level spells, compare it to full-casters.

6.Post it in our homebrew forum, and encourage others to analyze it.

7.Once you've finished it, test it before using it in an actual game.

[Edge of Dreams]

The important thing to understand here is that there *are no official rules for homebrewing classes and spells*. None. Zero. El Zilch-O.

<EDIT> Okay, I lied. Pages 170-175 of the DMG have some stuff about custom races and classes, but it's really really limited, and doesn't take into account anything outside of core
</EDIT>

That said, there are plenty of things you can learn from existing content. For example, saving throw progressions always follow one of two formulas: "good" saves and "bad" saves. BAB has 3 different base formulas. Skill points are always N+int, where N is an even number between 2 and 8 inclusive, etc. etc. etc.

[2xMachina]

For me, if you want balance, compare your homebrew with a similiar class. If you find that you don't really mind taking either (in terms of power), both are balanced against each other. (Best ask someone else to prevent bias)

Once you find that your homebrew is 100% picked over an existing class, it's overpowered. If the other way round, it's useless.

[Zeta Kai]

Not official, but this is useful.

+1 to this. Fax pretty much wrote the book on homebrew around here. It's a great guide to custom creation, & is valuable for the formatting advice alone.

[Flail_master]

wow thanks for all this guys, i shall take this all into account

and thanks for the link, very useful

[Gralamin]

The other important note is that sometime really cool ideas cannot be balanced with the mechanics you'd like to use.

When you are new at homebrew, Always always put side notes that are clearly labeled as not part of the rule text, explaining what purpose you were trying to get at. (I suggest making it {Bold and in Curly Brackets})

[Prime32]

im pretty adamant on makin a new class for the BBEG as well as some spells for him

What's the concept?

[sofawall]

2.Read up on a really good house-rule set, such as Test of Spite's. This'll should give you a list of most of the currently broken things in 3.5.

Disclaimer: While ToS tries to ban/regulate a fairly comprehensive list of abusive material, most of the rules are based largely in a PvP/Arena context. This being because that is what most of the playtesting of that ruleset is. Originally, we were also going to try running a few PbP Dungeon Crawls, but DMing Dungeon Crawls is had work, especially with the tendency of PbP games to fall apart, and thus we lack any real comprehensive testing on that front.

[Irreverent Fool]

hey guys i know this is an amateur question, but i been lookin through my 3.5 rulebooks and i cant find the rules on making spells or new classes!

its a bit early but we've been planning to play an Evil campaign after our current one (and a bit of Traveller :P) and i'd really like to DM it, so i've been trying to gather some stuff up, and recently, try and make an awesome campaign in advance, at least the basics.

got looooads of ideas and page numbers in which books would be useful, as well as perhaps any other pages which may be helpful to me

Unless you're very experienced as a DM, I'd suggest NOT homebrewing a custom class for your BBEG. What tends to happen is that a DM will create a powerful class with super-powerful abilities and then act surprised when the lv 3 baddie beats the party to a pulp. (Or worse yet, ego-trip on having a powerful BBEG and use the game as an outlet to smash the players and gain satisfaction because he beat them. I don't think this is the case here, though, I believe you simply want a unique and memorable baddie.)

On the other hand, if you're creating a campaign world and are adding the class in as something available to the players as well, that's a different story. If you want the BBEG to have unique powers, consider making him the possessor of an artifact that grants those powers. This will tend to tick off players less.

The short version: Don't make anything you think would be overpowered in the hands of the players and don't restrict their access to it unless it is integral to the plot that it be so (and it rarely is).

obnoxious
sig

[Zeta Kai]

I second the recommendation against using custom classes for bad guys. The temptation to give them overpowered class features is high, & the players will cry foul that they weren't given a chance to take levels in Overlord. It's much more satisfying to make the BBEG out of RAW material (pun intended).

[Masaioh]

I third the recommendation against using custom classes for bad guys. The temptation to give them overpowered class features is high, & the players will cry foul that they weren't given a chance to take levels in Overlord. It's much more satisfying to make the BBEG out of RAW material (pun intended).

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet: you should decide on a balance level for your games before you set out to make homebrew content. One player's 'balanced' is another players cheese, and a third player's 'useless'.

[Flail_master]

What's the concept?

Basically i wanna make a 'battlemage', he can wear heavy or medium armour but still have a decnt capability to cast spells, for example, maybe the class gives him a small improvement on spell failure chance in armour, and as he levels his spell failure chance in armour decreases more and more. I would probably include a drawback such as a minus to the armour bonus tho since a set of armour needs to be augmented to spellcasting so can reduce the toughness or overall effectiveness of the armour.

i'd wanna make him a decent combat fighter but also a relatively ok caster, maybe 3/4's as good as a sorcerer and 1/2 as good as any other fighting class, no bonus feats and maybe start with a +0 base attack bonus at level 1... perhaps instead of bonus feats, weak bonus spells, buffs and the such all augmented around battle casting

I wanna give him drawbacks too however, for example all somatic can now only be performed through his weapon which is augmented for spellcasting (i imagine a two handed sword with a blue streak of glowing shifting mana going down the middle, also when he casts it comes from his weapon, a lightning bolt fired from the tip for example) so if he's caught unaware he needs a weapon with this enchantment on it on hand.

Spells
well mainly its just stuff like an enchantment a person that activates whenever the caster wills it, the activation exploding the person into violent gore... painfully. Basically his way of keeping his minions in check.

also stuff like a better lightning bolt that is charged for 1 or 2 rounds then fired at one person for massive damage, maybe his highest level spell.

also stuff like 1 or 2 round weapon buffs that imbue them with different elements (fire, lightning, ice, sheer power why not )

Unless you're very experienced as a DM, I'd suggest NOT homebrewing a custom class for your BBEG. What tends to happen is that a DM will create a powerful class with super-powerful abilities and then act surprised when the lv 3 baddie beats the party to a pulp. (Or worse yet, ego-trip on having a powerful BBEG and use the game as an outlet to smash the players and gain satisfaction because he beat them. I don't think this is the case here, though, I believe you simply want a unique and memorable baddie.)

On the other hand, if you're creating a campaign world and are adding the class in as something available to the players as well, that's a different story. If you want the BBEG to have unique powers, consider making him the possessor of an artifact that grants those powers. This will tend to tick off players less.

The short version: Don't make anything you think would be overpowered in the hands of the players and don't restrict their access to it unless it is integral to the plot that it be so (and it rarely is).

yehs you are right when you say i want a memorable baddie, and i can understand its hard to balance it between a super overpowered bad guy and a really weak one

but when you said the thing bout the level 3 baddie destroying the party, thats not what i intend, this guy is pretty much only at the end when they are level 20/30, whichever, this guy basically starts out on their side and betrays them at the very end, its got a lot to it and its best not i explain too much, one of our players is on this forum and he may see this :P

point is i have a LOT of time before i may be DM'ing, we've still got to finish our good party campaign and have a campaign of Traveller, and ive already read up a lot on how to DM as well as knowing most of the game rules.

i've just got a picture of this guy in my head and i really wanna make him real. as far as im aware you cant do what im imagining RAW.

[Yora]

Homebrewing is cheaper than buying books, of course. But your concept sounds identical to the Duskblade from PHB2.

[Flail_master]

Homebrewing is cheaper than buying books, of course. But your concept sounds identical to the Duskblade from PHB2.

hmmm thats very similar to what i want, but theres a few feature id like to have which they do not
one in particular being lowering the spell failure chance slightly
I'd probably focus more on the spell capabilities than the fighting capabilities tho id still want him to be a decent fighter

[Yora]

Though it is a concept that sounds pretty cool, it's actually a concept that just doesn't work. I spend years trying to make a good melee/spellcaster build and it's just not possible.

And for a very simple reason. In D&D, a character that can really make a difference in a fight has to do one thing right. But a character who can fight and cast spells and does at least one thing as well as a pure warrior or spellcaster is obviously overpowered. Cleric and Druid could be said to attempt this and they are generally considered to be the two most powerful classes ever! Many people say even greatly overpowered.
So to make it fair for other classes, the class would have to be slightly weaker in both fighting and spellcasting.
But in D&D this means the character can do nothing well.

The only good battlemage classes and builds I know of are primary warriors who use magic to improve their fighting ability.
You probably could make a class that is primarily spellcasting and can fight a bit. But in that case it would probably a better option for the character to just cast spells and don't use his fighting abilities.

I'd say you should start with a concept how the character is supposed to defeat his enemies and what abilities he uses to accomplish that.

[Flail_master]

Though it is a concept that sounds pretty cool, it's actually a concept that just doesn't work. I spend years trying to make a good melee/spellcaster build and it's just not possible.

And for a very simple reason. In D&D, a character that can really make a difference in a fight has to do one thing right. But a character who can fight and cast spells and does at least one thing as well as a pure warrior or spellcaster is obviously overpowered. Cleric and Druid could be said to attempt this and they are generally considered to be the two most powerful classes ever! Many people say even greatly overpowered.
So to make it fair for other classes, the class would have to be slightly weaker in both fighting and spellcasting.
But in D&D this means the character can do nothing well.

The only good battlemage classes and builds I know of are primary warriors who use magic to improve their fighting ability.
You probably could make a class that is primarily spellcasting and can fight a bit. But in that case it would probably a better option for the character to just cast spells and don't use his fighting abilities.

I'd say you should start with a concept how the character is supposed to defeat his enemies and what abilities he uses to accomplish that.

hmm yeh i guess so, ive noticed that with druid and clerics...

i guess if anything i imagine a good fighter who augments his weapon with spells and mostly hacks people into nothing with buffed weapons as the hackee bursts into flame and lightening

i just really liked the idea of some awesome guy in massive armour charging this epic lightening bolt and completely obliterating one guy
or casting epic spells with the swing of a sword

[Prime32]

theres a few feature id like to have which they do not
one in particular being lowering the spell failure chance slightly

They can already cast in medium armour while carrying heavy shields. If they take the Battle Caster feat they can cast in heavy armour.

I'd probably focus more on the spell capabilities than the fighting capabilities tho id still want him to be a decent fighter

Then you should consider a psionic build. Either a psychic warrior or a multiclass psion/slayer. There's an ACF which lets psychic warriors summon a powerful magic sword.

Or, well, a cleric.

[Yora]

And all the psionic stuff is free.

Psychic warriors are generally considered very good at what they are doing.

[Flail_master]

Ah well that feat helps a lot actually... ill read up on the Duskblade, if i dont like it i guess i base it around it, but otherwise thats quite good now :D

alright well that leaves on more issue... a homebrew epic lightning spell which takes 1 or 2 rounds to charge maybe less and does ridiculous damage

guide to homebrewing here i come

[Koury]

You might like the Incarnate. Evil Incarnate could be cool. But I suppose it's silly to bring in MoI.

Also, I second Duskblade. That seems, imo, to be exactly what you are describing.

[Flail_master]

You might like the Incarnate. Evil Incarnate could be cool. But I suppose it's silly to bring in MoI.

Also, I second Duskblade. That seems, imo, to be exactly what you are describing.

Yehs duskblade is definitely what im looking for, if anything ill give him special magic weapons and armour to fulfill the whole cool armour and weapon bit

also i am now intrigued by psionics, its looks sooooo complex but it would be interesting to have a psion as this guys right hand man

[Prime32]

also i am now intrigued by psionics, its looks sooooo complex but it would be interesting to have a psion as this guys right hand man

Not particularly - it's easier to keep track of than Vancian casting. Just remember you can't spend more pp on a single power than your manifester level. The most unusual mechanic is probably psionic focus. The part that should appeal to you is that psionic powers don't have components, so they can be used in armour.
Here's an alternate link: http://www.d20srd.org/

alright well that leaves on more issue... a homebrew epic lightning spell which takes 1 or 2 rounds to charge maybe less and does ridiculous damage

There are some spells with names starting in "channeled" which can be charged up for more power. I think they're in the PHB2.