What to pair with a swift hunter build?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I am maikng a gestalt character at ECL 18 and for one side I choose a swift hunter build (scout 3/ranger 15) on one side, but I am not sure what to take on the other side, so does anybody got suggestion?

ECL 18
40 point but
I got access to most books so please go wild.

Thanks in advice

[Sinfire Titan]

Totemist 20. Manticore Belt FTW?

[Dusk Eclipse]

thanks for the suggestion but there is already a totemist in the party.... though I believe he will be a melee monster so a ranged swifthunter// totemist.... maybe I'll dip a level of cloistered cleric for devotions.... hmmm

[deuxhero]

Druid/Planar Shepard.

In seriousness, what fighting style are you? I assume archery, ask the DM if you can go Warblade with the use of Sublime archery disciplines (should be around the homebrew) or at least have some method of using manuvers on your bow.

[Thrawn183]

Are you looking for something with lots of passive abilities to buff the sift hunter side, or are you say, looking for some utility?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Druid/Planar Shepard.

TOO much I don't want to break the game

[QUOTE=Thrawn183]
Are you looking for something with lots of passive abilities to buff the sift hunter side, or are you say, looking for some utility?
[/QOUTE]

Not really sure, I was thinking on some buffs, but maybe utility, I am starting to think that going straight cloistered cleric might be a good option, I can use the spells to buff myself, possibly the party, and get some utilty.

[Ernir]

What is your character concept?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Concept

The son of a ranger, he was trained to kill arcanist because his father was extremely bitter against them, so he trained himself (and eventually he trained his son) to take them out. Despite my character's own interest in arcane arts.

[Godskook]

Psion?

-You're not an arcanist, but are still on par with them for the whole 'killing' issue.
-Int-based pushes your skill-monkey tendencies up.
-Good will save complements Ranger's good everything else very well.

[Ernir]

How about a Factotum? Skill monkey and arcane dabbling, yes. And it's generally stupid-good in Gestalt anyway.

You can take the Sword of the Arcane Order feat (Champions of Valor) and if possible the Mystic Ranger variant from Dragon 336 if you want more arcane goodness.

[Yorrin]

In my humble opinion Order of the Bow Initiate doesn't get enough credit on the internet. Sure, a Swift Hunter is better. But in Gestalt where you've already got Swift Hunter... your close-range bow damage spikes dramatically. Go with more Scout than ranger and you've got a LOT of precision damage to throw around.

[strider24seven]

Some options:

If Tome of Battle is allowed, Warblade is awesome. Most Tiger Claw maneuvers are vicious with TWF. Swordsage is also an option, if teleports activate skirmish.

A Tashalatora Psychic Warrior/Monk build can be ridiculous if Psionics is allowed. A 2-level dip in PsyWar can nab you some feats and powers, and a little more gets you Hustle, which lets you move more often. Perfect for a Swift Hunter.

If you go TWF, Dervish is freaking amazing if the Dance activates skirmish. Tempest is good too.

Hit and Run Fighter is absurd with a Swift Hunter.

Warshaper is awesome if you use the Wildshape Ranger variant.

And yes, Druid is stupidly powerful with a Swift Hunter.

No matter what you do, get some form of Sneak Attack and the Craven feat. If you want to be a hunter, grab Darkstalker.

And yes, Druid is ridiculous. Particularly if you add Warshaper.

[playswithfire]

ask the DM if you can go Warblade with the use of Sublime archery disciplines (should be around the homebrew) or at least have some method of using manuvers on your bow.

If the homebrew is a non-starter but Tome of Battle is allowed, I second dipping either Warblade or Crusader, but for a specific reason: the 5th level stance Press the Attack. Guarantees you your 10 foot movement for skirmish every round that you're able to take a 5-ft step. (for more fun, you can put the Martial Discipline (White Raven) enhancement on your weapon or weapons for some cheap attack roll bonus)

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wait I have an idea to be a caster and still having the mage slayer vibe (and feat tree)

I just need to take abjurant champion to 5th level, the capstone makes my CL equal to my BAB unless it would be otherwise higher right?

And the the mage-slayer tree reduces the CL by 12 (IIRC)

So if I shuffle my levels like this Ranger 5/Scout 3/ Ranger 10 // Wizard 5/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Wiz (or wizard prestige class +8)

So by the current set up I have BAB 18 and because of abjurant champion I get CL 18, bypassing the CL loss of the mage slayer tree.
Cheesey? Probably AWESOME? In my opionion HELL yeah,

So what do you think about this little trick?

[Eldariel]

Why not just go all the way and add Swiftblade 10 in for your troubles alongside few Wizard-dips on the other side? Swiftblade just goes perfectly with Swift Hunter anyways.

[Goldfly]

Normally I'd say Thri-Kreen, and then Warblade, but it dosen't seem to fit your character consept, not to mention it depends heavily on how LA works. It's a nice race, though, you can get skirmish 5+ times per round at 5th level, they have nice stats, and they have a higher then average movement rate.

I'd still recommend something like Duskblade, Psychic Warrior, or Warblade, though.

[deuxhero]

Wait I have an idea to be a caster and still having the mage slayer vibe (and feat tree)

I just need to take abjurant champion to 5th level, the capstone makes my CL equal to my BAB unless it would be otherwise higher right?

And the the mage-slayer tree reduces the CL by 12 (IIRC)

So if I shuffle my levels like this Ranger 5/Scout 3/ Ranger 10 // Wizard 5/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Wiz (or wizard prestige class +8)

So by the current set up I have BAB 18 and because of abjurant champion I get CL 18, bypassing the CL loss of the mage slayer tree.
Cheesey? Probably AWESOME? In my opionion HELL yeah,

So what do you think about this little trick?

Mage Slayer CL loss is stupid anyways.

[strider24seven]

Yeah, Swiftblade is pretty awesome. With Abjurant Champion, it's amazing. Try to dip Warblade and take Jade Phoenix Mage if that doesn't work.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ok how about this build?

I'll use the champion of the wild acf to get bonus feats (including blind fight)
The wizard variant that gets fighter bonus feats instead of wizard bonus ones
And if I can the variant combat style Strong Arm that gets power attack (in crystal keep)

And I am not sure if I should take Specialist Transmuter, or the domain wizard (transmutation)

Ok so far the build will be human

Stats 15,14,12,18,12,10
1 Ranger// Wizard Able Learner, Expeditous Dodge and Mobilty
2 Ranger// Wizard Power Attack (SA CS)
3 Ranger//Wizard Combat Casting (pre-requisite for Abj Champ)
4 Ranger//Wizard Blind Fight (CotW)
5 Ranger//Wizard (Not sure which to take... maybe improved initiative?)
6 Scout//Abj Champ Mage Slayer
7 Scout//Abj Champ
8 Scout//Abj Champ
9 Ranger//Abj Champ Pierce Magical Protection Improved Sunder (SA CS)
10 Ranger//Abj Champ
11 Wizard//Swiftblade Spring Attack
12 Ranger//Swiftblade Swift Hunter combat expertise (CotW)
13 Ranger//Swiftblade
14 Wizard//Swiftblade
15 Ranger//Swiftblade Pierce Magical Concealment Great Cleave (SA CS)
16Ranger// Swiftblade
17 Wizard// Swiftblade Bounding Assault.
18 Ranger// Swiftblade Arcane Strike Eyes in the back of your head. (CotW)

So how does this build looks like?

[Thrawn183]

You know this might sound a little crazy, as I can't remember the specifics of swift hunter, but have you considered going scout heavy instead of Ranger and pairing it with Fighter levels? You'd get better skill points, and have enough bonus feats to pick up the huge number of ranged feats you'll need just to be proficient at what you do. This would save you your character feats for whatever you might want.

Certainly not a powerful suggestion. I'd definitely put it behind factotum, but just throwing it out there in case it strikes your fancy.

[Eldariel]

Ok how about this build?

I'll use the champion of the wild acf to get bonus feats (including blind fight)
The wizard variant that gets fighter bonus feats instead of wizard bonus ones
And if I can the variant combat style Strong Arm that gets power attack (in crystal keep)

And I am not sure if I should take Specialist Transmuter, or the domain wizard (transmutation)

Ok so far the build will be human

Stats 15,14,12,18,12,10
1 Ranger// Wizard Able Learner, Expeditous Dodge and Mobilty
2 Ranger// Wizard Power Attack (SA CS)
3 Ranger//Wizard Combat Casting (pre-requisite for Abj Champ)
4 Ranger//Wizard Blind Fight (CotW)
5 Ranger//Wizard (Not sure which to take... maybe improved initiative?)
6 Scout//Abj Champ Mage Slayer
7 Scout//Abj Champ
8 Scout//Abj Champ
9 Ranger//Abj Champ Pierce Magical Protection Improved Sunder (SA CS)
10 Ranger//Abj Champ
11 Wizard//Swiftblade Spring Attack
12 Ranger//Swiftblade Swift Hunter combat expertise (CotW)
13 Ranger//Swiftblade
14 Wizard//Swiftblade
15 Ranger//Swiftblade Pierce Magical Concealment Great Cleave (SA CS)
16Ranger// Swiftblade
17 Wizard// Swiftblade Bounding Assault.
18 Ranger// Swiftblade Arcane Strike Eyes in the back of your head. (CotW)

So how does this build looks like?

Looks fine, though think hard if you really need the bonus feats; taking Mystic Ranger would get you 5th level Ranger-spells giving you quite decent versatility to go with your Swiftblade-casting. Though, of course, you kinda want the better Favored Enemy-progression with the Wizard-dips.

But yeah, that looks really solid. I'd consider Scout 4 on the Ranger-side too since that's a free bonus feat. Even Scout 6 as Evasion and Unfettered Movement are both very useful.


As for your excess bonus feats, consider:
- Quicken Spell
- Extend -> Persistent Spell (Persistent Haste is real nice and you can do it the oldfashioned way with Swift Haste or just normal Haste with Rod of Reach Spell; saves you an action at the start of each fight, and as you have Ex Haste, that means all-day undispellable AMF-proof Haste)
- Battle Jump
- Combat Reflexes (you have Mage Slayer-line!)
- Thicket of Blades (through magic items or just Crusader-dip (+ feat if necessary))
- Karmic Strike-line
- Robilar's Gambit
- Elusive Target
- Combat Brute (if you intend on Sundering their possessions, Combat Brute is quite good)
- Improved Trip -> Knock-Down (you already have Combat Expertise in there)

Meh, and I guess Mage Slayer-line beyond Mage Slayer itself is kinda lame on a warrior/mage since you can just cast True Seeing if you aren't in the mood to deal with Illusions and you can just Dispel if you want to get past magical protections. Mage Slayer itself is quite useful with any degree of AoO capabilities though as it makes it quite difficult for anyone to operate within your threatened area making your move actions that much more powerful.

Oh, and umm, I heard Improved Skirmish is good on Skirmishers? Oh, and don't forget to get some other source of bonus attack than Haste-spell (Speed-weapon, any of the billion other buffs granting bonus attacks but not stacking with Haste, some such) as with Perpetual Options, you no longer get the Haste bonus attack from Haste itself.


Specialist: Transmuter is probably a misstep, though Transmutable Memory [UA] does help some with the banned schools. I'd consider: Conjurer (while it's lost most of its luster, Abrupt Jaunt is still nice and you still want a Conjuration every level; teleportation is nice). Domain Transmuter is a very solid competitor if you want none of the special abilities.

[Philistine]

Wait, why are you dipping Wizard on the Swift Hunter side? As I understand the gestalt rules, such dips do not progress the Wizard casting on the opposite side of the gestalt.

I'm also not sure why you're going Swift Hunter for a Power Attack-ing melee build. Going with either TWF or Archery (once you have Greater Manyshot, which you easily should by ECL 18) would seem like a better choice to get all those d6s rolling more often.

Swift Hunter//Swordsage might fit the character concept, especially if going TWF. They have a number of explicitly magical maneuvers available to them, which could be taken to represent your character's interest in the arcane arts - and the "not really a caster" schtick would seem to fit in well with the "his family hates arcanists and discouraged his pursuit of such studies" as described.

[Eldariel]

Wait, why are you dipping Wizard on the Swift Hunter side? As I understand the gestalt rules, such dips do not progress the Wizard casting on the opposite side of the gestalt.

He takes Wizard-levels on the dead levels of Swiftblade-casting; that is, "plugs the holes" so to speak.

I'm also not sure why you're going Swift Hunter for a Power Attack-ing melee build. Going with either TWF or Archery (once you have Greater Manyshot, which you easily should by ECL 18) would seem like a better choice to get all those d6s rolling more often.

Swift Hunter//Swordsage might fit the character concept, especially if going TWF. They have a number of explicitly magical maneuvers available to them, which could be taken to represent your character's interest in the arcane arts - and the "not really a caster" schtick would seem to fit in well with the "his family hates arcanists and discouraged his pursuit of such studies" as described.

However, if he wants to actually kill arcanists, the kind of powers he gets here are going to be necessary. It takes what, any generic invulnerability combo to ignore a Swift Hunter/Swordsage entirely.

[Philistine]

He takes Wizard-levels on the dead levels of Swiftblade-casting; that is, "plugs the holes" so to speak.

Right, except that the casting on the two sides is separate. See: "Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class;" and if you're still confused, you can also try looking at "Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day separately" (which comes into play because his spellcasting class for the dead levels on the Arcane side of the gestalt is Swiftblade, not Wizard). So this progression results in effectively a 16th-level Wizard with a whole bunch of extra spells of levels 0-2.

Furthermore, the "plug the holes" idea doesn't work for BAB, as we see from the notorious example of the Fighter1/Sorc19//Wiz20 (which is BAB 10 and not 20, despite the Sorc and Wiz levels "plugging the holes" thanks to the Fighter dip giving a one-level offset), so why on earth would it work for spellcasting?

However, if he wants to actually kill arcanists, the kind of powers he gets here are going to be necessary. It takes what, any generic invulnerability combo to ignore a Swift Hunter/Swordsage entirely.

Might as well just gestalt Wiz20 with StP Erudite 20 (or Arcane Swordsage 20 ) and have done with it then, right? I mean, since the physical side is totally irrelevant anyway...

Anyway, that still doesn't explain why he's going with Swift Hunter for a Power Attacking melee brute. What exactly is Swift Hunter supposed to be bringing to the table here that any other melee class ever printed doesn't? The Swift Hunter//TWF Swordsage suggestion is an alternative that makes any use at all of the Swift Hunter side of the build.

[Ernir]

Right, except that the casting on the two sides is separate. See: "Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class;" and if you're still confused, you can also try looking at "Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day separately" (which comes into play because his spellcasting class for the dead levels on the Arcane side of the gestalt is Swiftblade, not Wizard). So this progression results in effectively a 16th-level Wizard with a whole bunch of extra spells of levels 0-2.

For the purposes of the Swiftblade, he has only one spellcasting class, that being Wizard.

Don't think of it as a gestalt character having "sides". Instead, on each level, a gestalt character takes two classes, and adds their class features.
On a level where you take a level of Swiftblade and a level of Wizard, you gain the Wizard's spellcasting, and all Swiftblade features of that level where they do not overlap with the Wizard's features.

Furthermore, the "plug the holes" idea doesn't work for BAB, as we see from the notorious example of the Fighter1/Sorc19//Wiz20 (which is BAB 10 and not 20, despite the Sorc and Wiz levels "plugging the holes" thanks to the Fighter dip giving a one-level offset), so why on earth would it work for spellcasting?

BAB progresses at the rate of the faster class, which makes the Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19//Wizard 20 not get a BAB of 20 at level 20. A Fighter 10/Sorcerer 10//Wizard 10/Ranger 10 would have that full BAB, though, as at every level he has a class that progresses BAB fully. The same way, a Fighter 15/Archmage 5//Wizard 15/Ranger 5 would have both full BAB and full Wizard casting, even if Fighter 15/Ranger 5//Wizard 15/Archmage 5 is a more intuitive way to write it for most.

[strider24seven]

Gestalt is really supposed to use Fractional BAB from UA (the same book), IMO. Solves all your BAB concerns.

Anyway, 3 levels of Factotum is awesome if you want to be a Wizard gish. Adding INT to STR and DEX checks is brutal. This includes trip and bullrush attempts, so you can mess your enemies up. And if you are taking Able Learner, you get all skills as class skills, forever.

8 Levels of Factotum is sacrificing a lot of something, be it your gishness or your swift-hunterness. But you can get extra standard actions. However, I would actually advise against this because you have to spend a ton of feats of Font of Inspiration to make it work.

[Thrawn183]

BAB progresses at the rate of the faster class, which makes the Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19//Wizard 20 not get a BAB of 20 at level 20. A Fighter 10/Sorcerer 10//Wizard 10/Ranger 10 would have that full BAB, though, as at every level he has a class that progresses BAB fully. The same way, a Fighter 15/Archmage 5//Wizard 15/Ranger 5 would have both full BAB and full Wizard casting, even if Fighter 15/Ranger 5//Wizard 15/Archmage 5 is a more intuitive way to write it for most.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly how it doesn't work.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well in my real life group (this is for a pbp game), we have alwas ruled the way I am using this, that's why I am used to that rulings.

[Eldariel]

I'm pretty sure that's exactly how it doesn't work.

What are you talking about? Every level, take the better progression and go by it. Seems pretty trivial. Seems like Ernir got it 100% right.

[weenie]

Your Swiftblade build looks really nice, but I'd rather start with at least one more level of Swiftblade, to get the tasty Perpetual Options class feature. It's GRRREAT!