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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default The Duelist [3.5]

    This basically is the same as the shadowdancer thread, except now it's for the duelist. Name your improvements to the class, house rules, etc.
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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    Duelist is tricky to salvage since it is limited to what is basically the least-optimal weapon style: 1-weapon, 1-hand, no shields, no armor, (fox only, final destination!)

    I'd give them a ToB Manuever progression, INT mod to damage and AC, and More Precise Strike Damage for starters.

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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    A new line of feats for one-handers. Improves to-hit, AC, and feinting ability, as well as giving them a parry (like in pathfinder).

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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    Uncap the int to AC. It should just be +X to AC where X is your int modifier rather than X maxing out at your duelist level.
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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    It seems to me that what Duelist needs most is either a) a means of damage output, or b) something else to contribute to combat (like some form of debuff).

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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    Replace with Swashbuckler/Rogue Daring Outlaw.
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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mushroom Ninja View Post
    It seems to me that what Duelist needs most is either a) a means of damage output, or b) something else to contribute to combat (like some form of debuff).
    The best debuff is moar dakka. The Duelist needs an ability to let him dakka moar.

    Temotei, give them the following ability:
    Sword Dakka (Ex): A Duelist gains Flurry of Blows, as a monk of double his Duelist level, but this may only be used with any weapon that can be weapon finessed, and only while the Duelist has one free hand and is wearing light or no armor.

    Note: this is highly tongue-in-cheek.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    The upgraded Duelist can be found on page 20 of the ToB, in the form of a base class.

    (Sorry.)


    Salvaging the class itself... the thing it needs the most is for there to be any incentive to actually use one-hand combat as opposed to placing that second hand on a shield, a second weapon, or your primary weapon.

    Once that has been taken care of, we can take a look at its class features.
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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    I really like the Pathfinder Duelist. Firstly, it gets light armor. It also get a "Parry" abililty that lets you trade attacks from a full attack to avoid hits and get AoOs when you parry. Take TWF and use your Off-Hand attacks to parry and still get Precise Strike damage.

    Also, Pathfinder has several feats (like Vital Strike) to improve fighter damage without relying on power attack, which btw, a Duelist can use. Rapier is a one-handed weapon, not light.

    I like this duelist better than 3.5 Swashbuckler (well, except for daring outlaw, more classes should get full sneak progression for a single feat. How about Daring CoDzilla)

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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    I don't think PF does enough to fix duelist. It still lacks the ability to do much of anything productive in combat. Replacing Parry with the Tome Fighter's Foil action, and making Crippling Critical come into play a bit earlier would help.

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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    The best debuff is moar dakka. The Duelist needs an ability to let him dakka moar.

    Temotei, give them the following ability:
    Sword Dakka (Ex): A Duelist gains Flurry of Blows, as a monk of double his Duelist level, but this may only be used with any weapon that can be weapon finessed, and only while the Duelist has one free hand and is wearing light or no armor.

    Note: this is highly tongue-in-cheek.
    Surely you mean choppy. He needs more choppy, not more dakka.

    Dakka is ammunition.
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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    Surely you mean choppy. He needs more choppy, not more dakka.

    Dakka is ammunition.
    Dakka is a funny word though.
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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    Surely you mean choppy. He needs more choppy, not more dakka.

    Dakka is ammunition.
    Dakka is actually the noise machine guns make.

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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by CockroachTeaParty View Post
    Dakka is actually the noise machine guns make.
    Which one could, in theory, tweak a rapier to make as you stab someone with it (magiclol). Imagine: a rapier that makes a gunshot noise when you stab someone. That'd be AWESOME.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Which one could, in theory, tweak a rapier to make as you stab someone with it (magiclol). Imagine: a rapier that makes a gunshot noise when you stab someone. That'd be AWESOME.
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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Which one could, in theory, tweak a rapier to make as you stab someone with it (magiclol). Imagine: a rapier that makes a gunshot noise when you stab someone. That'd be AWESOME.

    a quickloading thundering or sonic rapier with a hidden compartment witha launch bolt wand

    though I like that better on a shotgun shaped rod(club)
    Last edited by Escheton; 2010-04-12 at 11:01 PM.

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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    Moar Dakka
    A Moar Dakka weapon creates a loud noise upon striking an enemy, akin to the sound of a firing machine gun. When striking an opponent, all enemies within 30 ft. of the wielder must make a will save or become shaken for 1 round. In addition, if the wielder manages to score 3 or more hits with the weapon, each enemy must make a fort save or become deafened for one round as well.
    Save DC=11+number of hits the wielder manages to make in the round.

    Moderate evocation; CL 5th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Blindness/Deafness, Cause Fear; Price +2 bonus.

    Sound good?
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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Replace with Swashbuckler/Rogue Daring Outlaw.
    This is the most fast, elegant and fitting in flavour solution, IMHO.

    Otherwise, as introduced above, check in the pathfinder SRD for the pathfinder duelist. It has some goods.

    Finally, take a look in Dragon Compendium and PHII. IIRC, there are feats in bot sources that help einhanders.
    Last edited by Kaiyanwang; 2010-04-13 at 08:53 AM.
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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    How about giving the Duelist the Pathfinder Smite ability? Only instead of targeting one enemy of an opposite alignment you can simply target anyone?

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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    i realy think that need to remove the only 1 handed thing. as well as un cap the ac thing.
    When the end comes i shall remember you.

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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by the_archduke View Post
    Uncap the int to AC. It should just be +X to AC where X is your int modifier rather than X maxing out at your duelist level.
    The intention was to not make duelist a 1-lv wonder (as was the case in 3e, where people would just splash 1 lv for int mod to AC).

    To me, the need to have high AC just to make up for your inability to wear armour is quite crippling as it adds to your MAD (and he has no other use for int). He should just get duelist lv to AC or something.

    The precise strike damage should also scale more quickly. Still, you are ending up with this high AC but crap damage skirmisher. Not sure if anything will deign to pay any attention to him.

    PHB2 does help some, adding melee weapon mastery, einhander, bounding assault and finally, rapid blitz. But the key problem still seems to be poor damage output.
    Last edited by Runestar; 2010-04-13 at 08:51 AM.

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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    I saw a realy cool dualist build once that
    was a kalashtar


    I belive it was something like 3 swashbuckler/2 some thing/ dualist 7 /3 stone blessed 5 blade bravado

    He also had a staff that had some sort of pointy end to it so it counted as a quarterstaff that was pierce/bludgion.

    he also took all the fight defensivly kalashtar feats...

    He would get a huge bonus to ac and 3d6 extra dmg on his attacks(i know nothing impressive) but his ac was somewhere in the 40's.. It was pritty sweet.
    When the end comes i shall remember you.

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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    The intention was to not make duelist a 1-lv wonder (as was the case in 3e, where people would just splash 1 lv for int mod to AC).

    To me, the need to have high AC just to make up for your inability to wear armour is quite crippling as it adds to your MAD (and he has no other use for int). He should just get duelist lv to AC or something.
    Double Duelist lv. 1/lv is too low unless he is meant to be a weaker fighter.
    Which case means why enter the class in first place.

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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    odd querstion could a

    dualist with monk levels attack with his unarmed strike as an offhand attack if he's using a piercing weapon in his main hand?

    The precise strike says "a duelist cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield"



    Also a swahbuckler/monk with kung fu genus or the other int to ac monk think may be pritty nice regardless of the above answer.
    When the end comes i shall remember you.

    I sorry i fail Englimish...(appologise for Spelling/Grammer Errors) Please don't correct my spelling or grammer eaither.

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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    Honestly, I'd revamp the entire class into something like this:

    Hrmm…how would I change the duelist…

    Change pre-reqs:

    Skills: Tumble 5, Bluff 3, Balance 3.
    Feats: Dodge, Weapon Finesse
    BAB: +5

    Allow Class Features to function in light armor.

    Level 1: Leave Canny Defense as is.
    NEW CLASS FEATURE: Duelist’s Focus. The target of your Dodge feat is the opponent you are choosing to focus on. As long as you using a one-handed weapon and your other hand is not holding anything, you gain an additional +1 Dodge bonus to AC on top of your Dodge feat’s AC bonus and execute a Precise Strike against this target. Precise Strike deals an extra 1d6 of precision damage with your attacks against this target as long as it remains the target of your Dodge feat. Precise Strike counts as Sneak Attack when qualifying for Sneak Attack based feats or prerequisites.

    Level 2: Improved Reaction +2, Improved Feint as a bonus feat

    Level 3: Grant Mobility as a Bonus Feat, Grace +2

    Level 4: Duelists Focus +2 AC/2d6

    Level 5: Elaborate Parry
    NEW CLASS FEATURE: Duelist’s Challenge: If the target of your Dodge feat makes a melee attack against a target other than yourself, it grants you an opportunity attack as long you are wielding a one handed weapon with one hand free. This feature can only be triggered once per round and cannot grant you more opportunity attacks than you are entitled to.

    Level 6: Grant Einhander as a bonus feat, even if the Duelist does not meat the prerequisites.

    Level 7: Duelist’s Focus +3 AC/3d6, Acrobatic Charge

    Level 8: Improved Reaction +4, Deflect Arrows

    Level 9: New Class Feature: Signature Strike: If the target of your Dodge feat missed you with a melee attack since your last turn and you strike him with a precise strike this turn, make an intimidate check as a swift action after your attack lands. If the check is successful, the opponent is shaken for the rest of the encounter as you carve your initials/symbol/favorite picture into him or his clothing.

    Level 10: Duelist’s Focus +4 AC/4d6
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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    Here's a homebrew I made shortly after Pathfinder came out for one of my player's:
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    The Duelist

    Prerequisites: +6 BAB, Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Tumble 4 ranks

    {table=head]Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special
    1st | +1 | +0| +1 | +0 | Canny Defense, Precise Strike
    2nd | +2 | +1 | +1 | +1 | Parry
    3rd | +3 | +1 | +2 | +1 | Grace
    4th | +4 | +1 | +2 | +1 | Cunning Reflexes
    5th | +5 | +2 | +3 | +2 | Acrobatic Charge
    6th | +6 | +2 | +3 | +2 | Riposte
    7th | +7 | +2 | +4 | +2 | Elaborate Defense
    8th | +8 | +3 | +4 | +3 | Evasion
    9th | +9 | +3 | +5 | +3 | Advance
    10th | +10 | +3| +5 | +3 | Crippling Strike
    [/table]

    Canny Defense (Ex): When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

    Precise Strike (Ex): A duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, adding her duelist level to her damage roll. A duelist's precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is also immune to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike.

    In addition, when making a precise strike a duelist cannot attack using two hands or use a shield. This restriction also applies to the duelist's Parry, Riposte, Elaborate Defense, and Crippling Strike abilities.

    Parry (Ex): Whenever you or an adjacent ally is attacked by a melee or ranged weapon, you may attempt to Parry it as an Immediate Action. If you choose to use this ability, you must declare that you are using it after your enemy successfully hits but before the DM announces damage or effects of the attack. Make a melee attack roll, adding your Intelligence modifier as bonus to hit. If your modified attack roll is higher then the enemy’s modified attack roll, the attack is negated.

    Grace (Ex): Any Dodge bonus that you possess from any feat or class ability now applies to all enemies. You no longer need to "designate" one foe. This includes the AC bonus, as well as any special abilities or feats that rely on the Dodge ability, such as the Elusive Target feat. In addition, you may add any Dodge bonus to AC that you possess from any feat or class ability as an Insight bonus to your Reflex Save and Initiative checks as well.

    Cunning Reflexes (Ex): You gain Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat. If you already have Combat Reflexes, you may choose any other feat that you qualify for in it's place.

    In addition, you may add your Intelligence bonus as a bonus to hit on any attack of opportunity. You may use this ability once per round.

    Acrobatic Charge (Ex): When you Charge you may make up to two 45 degree turns at any point during your Charge. You may also Charge over difficult terrain, through occupied squares, or by swinging on a rope/chain/etc in the direction of your enemy (though you may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain). You also gain the Pounce ability (you may make a full attack when you Charge).

    Riposte (Ex): A duelist can make an attack of opportunity against any creature whose attack she successfully Parries, so long as the creature she is attacking is within reach.

    Elaborate Defense (Ex): You gain Improved Disarm as a bonus feat. If you already possess this feat, you may choose any other feat that you qualify for in it's place.

    In addition, when an enemy attacks you and misses (either because it failed to hit your AC or because you successfully used Parry to block the attack) you may make a Disarm attempt as an attack of opportunity. You may use this ability once per round.

    Evasion (Ex): You gain the Evasion ability. If you already have the Evasion ability, you gain Improved Evasion instead.

    Advance (Ex): Whenever an enemy within your threatened area makes a 5 ft step, you may also make a 5ft step as a Free Action. This does not prevent you from moving normally or taking another 5ft step on your turn.

    Crippling Strike (Ex): Whenever you successfully use the Precise Strike ability and threaten a critical hit, you also deal 1 point of Dexterity damage and reduce all of the target's speeds by 5 ft (minimum 5 ft). The movement penalties from multiple Crippling Strikes stack, and each penalty lasts until the target has repaired the Dexterity damage from the Crippling Strike that imposed it.

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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Here's a homebrew I made shortly after Pathfinder came out for one of my player's:
    Spoiler
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    The Duelist

    Prerequisites: +6 BAB, Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Tumble 4 ranks

    {table=head]Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special
    1st | +1 | +0| +1 | +0 | Canny Defense, Precise Strike
    2nd | +2 | +1 | +1 | +1 | Parry
    3rd | +3 | +1 | +2 | +1 | Grace
    4th | +4 | +1 | +2 | +1 | Cunning Reflexes
    5th | +5 | +2 | +3 | +2 | Acrobatic Charge
    6th | +6 | +2 | +3 | +2 | Riposte
    7th | +7 | +2 | +4 | +2 | Elaborate Defense
    8th | +8 | +3 | +4 | +3 | Evasion
    9th | +9 | +3 | +5 | +3 | No Retreat
    10th | +10/ | +3| +5 | +3 | Crippling Strike
    [/table]

    Canny Defense (Ex): When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

    Precise Strike (Ex): A duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, adding her duelist level to her damage roll. A duelist's precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is also immune to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike.

    In addition, when making a precise strike a duelist cannot attack using two hands or use a shield. This restriction also applies to the duelist's Parry, Riposte, Elaborate Defense, and Crippling Strike abilities.

    Parry (Ex): Whenever you or an adjacent ally is attacked by a melee or ranged weapon, you may attempt to Parry it as an Immediate Action. If you choose to use this ability, you must declare that you are using it after your enemy successfully hits but before the DM announces damage or effects of the attack. Make a melee attack roll, adding your Intelligence modifier as bonus to hit. If your modified attack roll is higher then the enemy’s modified attack roll, the attack is negated.

    Grace (Ex): Any Dodge bonus that you possess from any feat or class ability now applies to all enemies. You no longer need to "designate" one foe. This includes the AC bonus, as well as any special abilities or feats that rely on the Dodge ability, such as the Elusive Target feat. In addition, you may add any Dodge bonus to AC that you possess from any feat or class ability as an Insight bonus to your Reflex Save and Initiative checks as well.

    Cunning Reflexes (Ex): You gain Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat. If you already have Combat Reflexes, you may choose any other feat that you qualify for in it's place.

    In addition, you may add your Intelligence bonus as a bonus to hit on any attack of opportunity. You may use this ability once per round.

    Acrobatic Charge (Ex): When you Charge you may make up to two 45 degree turns at any point during your Charge. You may also Charge over difficult terrain, through occupied squares, or by swinging on a rope/chain/etc in the direction of your enemy (though you may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain). You also gain the Pounce ability (you may make a full attack when you Charge).

    Riposte (Ex): A duelist can make an attack of opportunity against any creature whose attack she successfully Parries, so long as the creature she is attacking is within reach.

    Elaborate Defense (Ex): You gain Improved Disarm as a bonus feat. If you already possess this feat, you may choose any other feat that you qualify for in it's place.

    In addition, when an enemy attacks you and misses (either because it failed to hit your AC or because you successfully used Parry to block the attack) you may make a Disarm attempt as an attack of opportunity. You may use this ability once per round.

    Evasion (Ex): You gain the Evasion ability. If you already have the Evasion ability, you gain Improved Evasion instead.

    Advance (Ex): Whenever an enemy within your threatened area makes a 5 ft step, you may also make a 5ft step as a Free Action. This does not prevent you from moving normally or taking another 5ft step on your turn.

    Crippling Strike (Ex): Whenever you successfully use the Precise Strike ability and threaten a critical hit, you also deal 1 point of Dexterity damage and reduce all of the target's speeds by 5 ft (minimum 5 ft). The movement penalties from multiple Crippling Strikes stack, and each penalty lasts until the target has repaired the Dexterity damage from the Crippling Strike that imposed it.
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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Double Duelist lv. 1/lv is too low unless he is meant to be a weaker fighter.
    Which case means why enter the class in first place.
    Don't forget that you can still get duelist lv to dodge AC when fighting defensively.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The Duelist [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Temotei221 View Post
    I'm going to yoink this, if you don't mind.
    Go right ahead. Glad I could help.

    Notable change that people might not of picked up on immediately - I removed the "must attack with only one hand and not use a shield" thing and changed it to "must not attack two handed and not use a shield." This lets people use TWF or Multiweapon Fighting if they are so inclined, which is a natural fit for the Duelist class abilities. The whole "one handed" thing makes absolutely no sense in terms of D&D mechanics or even non-Olympic fencing (which often used a main gauche or similar off hand weapon when fighting).

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