A question about Warrior [3.5]

[Fortuna]

It says it has proficiency with 'all shields', so does that include tower shields?

[ka_bna]

I'd say it does, as a tower shield is a shield.

Pro: The fighter is proficient with it too. Warrior is kind of a fighter NPC.
Contra: The line of fighter reads: A fighter is proficient with ... shields (including tower shields). The line of warrior reads: The warrior is proficient in the use of ... all armor and shields. It lacks the line (including tower shields), therefore the warrior is not proficient with a tower shield.
Contra contra: So that would mean a tower shield is not a shield? No, just no.

Therefore, it'd be reasonable to say the warrior is proficient with a tower shield. Raw does not unsupport this.

[Ashiel]

I'd say it does, as a tower shield is a shield.

Pro: The fighter is proficient with it too. Warrior is kind of a fighter NPC.
Contra: The line of fighter reads: A fighter is proficient with ... shields (including tower shields). The line of warrior reads: The warrior is proficient in the use of ... all armor and shields. It lacks the line (including tower shields), therefore the warrior is not proficient with a tower shield.
Contra contra: So that would mean a tower shield is not a shield? No, just no.

Therefore, it'd be reasonable to say the warrior is proficient with a tower shield. Raw does not unsupport this.

It's worth noting that classes that have shield proficiency also specify "(except tower shields)" as well; so the fact the Warrior lacks this is further indication that they can wield them, because it equals any counter-argument that could be made to the contrary.

EDIT: Additionally, in 3.0, tower shield merely required proficiency with shields. It was later changed in 3.5. Warriors had proficiency with all shields; and this was likely an editing error. A simple case of copy/paste that didn't get edited to the new standard. Either way, as written, they have proficiency with anything resembling a shield.

[kamikasei]

Contra: The line of fighter reads: A fighter is proficient with ... shields (including tower shields). The line of warrior reads: The warrior is proficient in the use of ... all armor and shields. It lacks the line (including tower shields), therefore the warrior is not proficient with a tower shield.

At the same time, the fighter's proficiency reads "all armor (light, medium and heavy)", while the warrior's simply says "all armor". It's either editorial laziness or a 3.0 holdover as Ashiel says. Note that e.g. clerics say "(excluding tower shields)", so the lack of a parenthetical statement can be taken either way but the sensible (it seems to me) interpretation is that the unqualified statement is "all shields" and that includes tower shields.

[balistafreak]

Can a Warrior therefore trade his Tower Shield Proficiency for Exotic Shield Proficiency?

I seem to remember a line claiming "Fighters may trade their Tower Shield Proficiency for Exotic Shield Proficiency" from Races of Stone. Perhaps I remember wrong, and it just said "Towers for Exotics", but if not that would be a somewhat irritating case.

[Ashiel]

Can a Warrior therefore trade his Tower Shield Proficiency for Exotic Shield Proficiency?

I seem to remember a line claiming "Fighters may trade their Tower Shield Proficiency for Exotic Shield Proficiency" from Races of Stone. Perhaps I remember wrong, and it just said "Towers for Exotics", but if not that would be a somewhat irritating case.

I'm not really certain about this one. It really depends on the wording. If it specifically calls out Fighters only, then probably not by RAW. However, if the section later specifies that Tower Shield proficiency in any form may be traded, then you likely can.

I'm not all that familiar with exotic shields either way.

[Frosty]

Even if they can't normally, I'm sure they can Chaos Shuffle their shield proficiency feats

[Volthawk]

Even if they can't normally, I'm sure they can Chaos Shuffle their shield proficiency feats

Well if it's the game I think it is, Chaos Shuffle is out of the picture.

Random, is it for the zombie game?

[Ernir]

Even if they can't normally, I'm sure they can Chaos Shuffle their shield proficiency feats

Erm, gaining proficiency with something isn't the same as gaining the proficiency feats. At least I have never seen anything that points to that.

[arguskos]

Erm, gaining proficiency with something isn't the same as gaining the proficiency feats. At least I have never seen anything that points to that.

Actually, if you check Elf again, it specifies they have the FEATS for those weapons. I thought as you did once, and was corrected in the same manner.

[Volthawk]

Actually, if you check Elf again, it specifies they have the FEATS for those weapons. I thought as you did once, and was corrected in the same manner.

Yeah, but what about Warrior and their proficiencies? That was what he was talking about.

[arguskos]

Same concept applies though, I believe you're considered to have the feats. Also, I have NO IDEA why I posted about elves? Man, I'm confused sometimes.

[Volthawk]

Same concept applies though, I believe you're considered to have the feats. Also, I have NO IDEA why I posted about elves? Man, I'm confused sometimes.

Elves are the standard example.

[Ernir]

Actually, if you check Elf again, it specifies they have the FEATS for those weapons. I thought as you did once, and was corrected in the same manner.

Yes, elves are explicit about giving the feats. I was, however, not talking about elves.

If someone can point to an example of a proficiency-granting class that talks about giving feats, I'd like to see it.

[Fortuna]

Well if it's the game I think it is, Chaos Shuffle is out of the picture.

Random, is it for the zombie game?

Yep. It's also irrelevant now, since I'm using a heavy shield instead.

[Thrawn183]

Actually I'm pretty sure a warrior would be proficient in any exotic shields (not that I can think of any exotic shields) because it says they are proficient with all shields.

[Lycanthromancer]

Actually I'm pretty sure a warrior would be proficient in any exotic shields (not that I can think of any exotic shields) because it says they are proficient with all shields.

The same goes for armor.

[Fortuna]

In which case doesn't the fighter get exotic shields too? All shields, including tower shields, doesn't exclude exotic shields.

[sofawall]

In which case doesn't the fighter get exotic shields too? All shields, including tower shields, doesn't exclude exotic shields.

While RAW, it is also not RAI.

Hmm... If you are proficient with all shields, but a shield says it requires EWP: Shield, you might still take penalties. Wording can be stupid, sometimes.