[D&D 3.5 ToB] Key Skills: What are they for?

[Cieyrin]

I was looking through ToB today and I've come to the conundrum of why there are key skills for disciplines. I know some disciplines use them in their maneuvers but some don't bother after that. The Crowns of the White Raven side bar seems to indicate that having ranks in the key skill is some kind of prereq for getting discipline maneuvers but I can't find anything to further support this in the book.

So, what gives? Is this just some kind of design artifact that got cut before release or have I been missing something the entire time? I mean, the Martial Study feat grants the key skill as a virtual class skill but I don't see why unless the maneuver you're learning uses that skill to see if it's successful. I got no dice on this...

[Yuki Akuma]

Some disciplines use their key skills for maneuvers. Other disciplines don't. One assumes it was just to keep every discipline 'even'.

Aren't there magic items that grant a bonus to key skills?

[Godskook]

Because for most of the disciplines, the key skill and the class go hand and hand. Setting Sun is about tripping and not getting tripped, and has balance as a class skill. Mostly its for flavor, but those few mechanics that key off it really make sense, such as Diamond Mind's use of concentration instead of saves. Odds are, players who invest a lot in a discipline's maneuvers is probably going to invest in the discipline's key skill as well. I mean, Shadow Hand and Hide were made for each other.

The way I figure it, discipline weapons and associated skills were built in to the design so that they'd have design space to make additions to the concept. Right now, very little keys off either, and unless you're a Swordsage, you probably don't even know what your discipline's associated weapon is.

However, add a few supplements, and voila, reasons to pay attention to associated weapons and associated skills.

[Runestar]

My guess is this.

Some disciplines make more use out of a skill, such as diamond mind.

If a non-martial adept acquired say, mind over body via martial study, but does not have concentration as a class skill, said maneuver would be quite limited in its use. So martial study decided to grant concentration as a class skill.

This would make it more useful, so to balance out all the disciplines, each one needed a "key" skill to grant. After all, martial adepts already get those skills as class skills anyways.

[Golden-Esque]

Because for most of the disciplines, the key skill and the class go hand and hand. Setting Sun is about tripping and not getting tripped, and has balance as a class skill. Mostly its for flavor, but those few mechanics that key off it really make sense, such as Diamond Mind's use of concentration instead of saves. Odds are, players who invest a lot in a discipline's maneuvers is probably going to invest in the discipline's key skill as well. I mean, Shadow Hand and Hide were made for each other.

The way I figure it, discipline weapons and associated skills were built in to the design so that they'd have design space to make additions to the concept. Right now, very little keys off either, and unless you're a Swordsage, you probably don't even know what your discipline's associated weapon is.

However, add a few supplements, and voila, reasons to pay attention to associated weapons and associated skills.

Actually, Setting Sun has Sense Motive to represent interpreting your opponent's movements to turn them against him or her. Stone Dragon uses Balance for its strong, heavy stances and maneuvers .

[Cieyrin]

Actually, Setting Sun has Sense Motive to represent interpreting your opponent's movements to turn them against him or her. Stone Dragon uses Balance for its strong, heavy stances and maneuvers .

As does Iron Heart. Plus, it's a convenient excuse to pick up at least 5 ranks so to not be screwed over by Grease-like effects.

As for them being class skills for martial adepts already, I think that it's more related to the fact that they have the disciplines and thus have the skill as a class skill, i.e. they have virtual Martial Studies for their disciplines. If WotC had got around to doing supplements, they'd probably have followed a similar path to what a lot of Homebrewers did with their own custom disciplines with the discipline replacement mechanic, replacing class skills from disciplines they no longer have with the ones they gain.

[Draz74]

If you're just asking "how do these skills affect the game if they're not referenced by the individual Maneuvers," then there's two I can think of right now:

• PrC Prereqs, e.g. Master of Nine
• Martial Study/Blade Meditation

[jiriku]

I'd say it's part of ToB's (incompletely realized) attempts to integrate all the major mechanical regions of the game. The designers recognized that previous martial classes were too one-dimensional. This is the reason crusader, swordsage, and warblade each have a mental attribute as a secondary stat (and a different one for each class, at that). This is the reason these martial classes have expanded class skill lists and more skill points at each level. Overall, a great plan. Just never really fully implemented.

[term1nally s1ck]

Judging by the items, they used to be prereqs for some of the maneuvers. This was obviously removed late on in the design, and the editing wasn't that great.

[AslanCross]

Even though the key skills are mostly class skills for the martial adept classes, ToB was designed to be compatible with core instead of out and out replacing it. Getting the key skills on your class list by taking Martial Study is actually a pretty good boost for the skill-gimped fighter.

[Cieyrin]

I'd say it's part of ToB's (incompletely realized) attempts to integrate all the major mechanical regions of the game. The designers recognized that previous martial classes were too one-dimensional. This is the reason crusader, swordsage, and warblade each have a mental attribute as a secondary stat (and a different one for each class, at that). This is the reason these martial classes have expanded class skill lists and more skill points at each level. Overall, a great plan. Just never really fully implemented.

Probably the best explanation I've seen and indeed, meleers should be more skilly than they currently are, as it holds them back something fierce. I mean, yeah, Fighters shouldn't be Skill Monkeys like Rogues but that doesn't mean they can't have 4+Int Skill points to pretend to not be BDF whose useless outside combat, amirite?

[Optimator]

Well, when you learn Martial Maneuver, you get the key skill of the discipline. Maybe they added the skills in for that reason.

[horngeek]

Probably the best explanation I've seen and indeed, meleers should be more skilly than they currently are, as it holds them back something fierce. I mean, yeah, Fighters shouldn't be Skill Monkeys like Rogues but that doesn't mean they can't have 4+Int Skill points to pretend to not be BDF whose useless outside combat, amirite?

Samurai.

<.<
>.>

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Samurai.

<.<
>.>

Samurai only need one skill to be broken... a couple of feats and a couple of toys to make it worth it, but... only one skill.

[horngeek]

What skill? Let me guess: Iaijutsu Focus?

[Eurus]

What skill? Let me guess: Iaijutsu Focus?

Nah, intimidate. You can make a fairly decent intimidate build that sends entire crowds of enemies perpetually cowering with almost no chance of failure - of course, you're still doomed against anything immune to fear or mind-affecting abilities.

[Frosty]

What skill? Let me guess: Iaijutsu Focus?

Intimidate.

Edit: ninja'ed! Damn you cached pages!

[horngeek]

Nah, intimidate. You can make a fairly decent intimidate build that sends entire crowds of enemies perpetually cowering with almost no chance of failure - of course, you're still doomed against anything immune to fear or mind-affecting abilities.

Ah.

Keep in mind that I don't powergame (both as a point of pride and because I can't be bothered ) so I don't know any of those tricks.

[Koury]

Ah.

Keep in mind that I don't powergame (both as a point of pride and because I can't be bothered ) so I don't know any of those tricks.

So wait, when I make a strong build, I shouldn't be proud of it?

Huh, guess I'm doing it wrong.

[Draz74]

Keep in mind that I don't powergame (both as a point of pride and because I can't be bothered ) so I don't know any of those tricks.

Well, the original use of this trick is linked in Shneekey's signature, above. His post was hinting at his own greatest (or at least most hilarious) victory.

[horngeek]

So wait, when I make a strong build, I shouldn't be proud of it?

Huh, guess I'm doing it wrong.

Strong build: okay. But I play for the RPing. So, taking something that doesn't make sense IC just because it's strong...

Eh. Different play styles, each to his own, I suppose.

[Koury]

Strong build: okay. But I play for the RPing. So, taking something that doesn't make sense IC just because it's strong...

Eh. Different play styles, each to his own, I suppose.

Rawr, Stormwind! Being strong doesn't affect my ability to roleplay a build.

(Heh, I don't really care that much, but i've never been in a position to call someone on it before )

[Cieyrin]

Samurai only need one skill to be broken... a couple of feats and a couple of toys to make it worth it, but... only one skill.

Heh, milking your claim to fame is better when others bring it up.

[Kobold-Bard]

Strong build: okay. But I play for the RPing. So, taking something that doesn't make sense IC just because it's strong...

Eh. Different play styles, each to his own, I suppose.

How does optimising Intimidate as a Samurai not make sense IC? Their class relies on the skill to work.

[DragoonWraith]

Back at the OP: personally, I find the associated skills to be really cool fluff. They're important for some things, which have already been discussed, but I dunno, just wanted to comment that for me I'm really glad that they're there.