[4e] help hiding a Devil

[Guinea Anubis]

I had my players go up against a Wormtoungue like person for the help/influence of the a king. My players did well enough to have to do a favor to gain the trust of the king, but then with some GREAT roleplaying and good dice rolls they got the king to send this Wormtoungue with them on there mission.

I had Wormtongue excuse him self and told them he would meet them at there wagon. Since I have this Wormtongue working for the BBEG of my campaign that is a Devil I was thinking that in the time he was gone he could summon a Devil to take his place.

So the main problem I am having is coming up with a way with in the rules to hide/disguise this devil.

[Kurald Galain]

So the main problem I am having is coming up with a way with in the rules to hide/disguise this devil.

That's not in the rules. Since the devil is an NPC, you're supposed to just declare, as the DM, that he is hidden or disguised. That's much easier.

[greenknight]

As Kurald Galain says, just have it happen. Then have the PCs check Insight to see whether or not they notice a change. Also try religion checks to see if they get a "weird bad vibe" off the character. If they do an Arcana check to sense the presence of magic, it might show up there too. Ultimately, you should try to give the PCs a reasonable chance to discover something is very different about this guy, even if they can't pin down exactly what it is.

[Excession]

Look at the rules for a Hag or Succubus perhaps. The important information seems to be in the MM1 glossary under the Change Shape ability. I seem to remember something about Insight versus Bluff checks. If there's nothing useful there perhaps just make it a "hard" DC Insight check.

I wouldn't just fiat it. If someone's character is good at Insight they may feel cheated if you don't let them use it. Even a good roll might only get them "he seems a bit... off", but let them have that. If they do pick it, make them roll a bluff check to hide the realisation; dice rolls go both ways.

Edit: ninja'd by greenknight.

[Guinea Anubis]

That's not in the rules. Since the devil is an NPC, you're supposed to just declare, as the DM, that he is hidden or disguised. That's much easier.

Ya I could, But I feel that I need to do it do it with in some kind of rules so the players have a chance of figuring things out.

I was thinking of some kind of magic item that only works on a Devil.

[Lost Wanderer]

You could give said devil the doppelganger's racial ability.

You could also say he used a ritual to disguise himself. In fact, he has to take a couple minutes to refresh it every day. When he does it, it isn't obvious what he's doing, but it is certainly not ordinary. That way, the PCs have a way to find out whats going on...

[Swordgleam]

I'd go the ritual route. A lot of them have caster's arcana check + whatever to break/notice. So figure out what wormtongue or the devil's arcana is, roll that (or take 10), add 5 or 10 to notice the effects and 10 or 15 to break it.

They beat the lower number, they figure out he's magically affected somehow, perhaps even that the effect is a disguise (depending on how the roll came up - "I make an insight check to see if he's as shady as I think he is" vs "I make an insight check to see why he's acting different"). They beat the higher number, they can see that he's a devil.

[Lost Wanderer]

I'd say Insight would tell them he's not the same Wormtongue as before (assuming a high roll), middle Arcana result that he's got magic on him and a high result that he's transformed, and a high-ish Religion to tell he's a devil once they know he's transformed.

[Geiger Counter]

Um how about just using a Rakshasa?
They are LE shapeshifters after all.

[Zellic Solis]

I would do this. Let them make roles that give them hints. An arcane check to see there's obvious enchantments on Wormy. "Well I am a valued member of the court, and have enchantments to protect me." Insight when he acts a little different than what they remember. "Well... being close with you has made me more... interested... in your future." Religion to notice strange effects around him. Milk spoils when he passes. They keep smelling whiffs of sulfur. He can't bear the touch of the priest's holy symbol.

When they finally confront him have him say something like "I can't maintain this deception any more. Now you die!" And he summons other demons immediately to help him out. Roll initiative.

[Thomo]

I think Zellic is on the right point. Don't actually state to them that they need to make a Religion/Arcana/Whatever roll without giving them a reason. Instead drop a few hints. Play the character a little different, maybe some of his mannerisms have changed, have him address people a little differently. Nothing so drastic that they will pick up on straight away, but just little things that will jar.
Do the players know that he is a 'wormtoungue' type character? If so they should already be on guard around him. If not, encourage them subtley to be suspicious of him.
Maybe have him conciously keep a small distance from the party cleric/paladin. Make a mention of how his eyes reflect the campfire light a little too well or something like that, or he never looks directly at the holy symbol or won't meet a paladin/clerics eyes - it could be put down to general shiftiness, but it could be something more.. Small hints that when he is revealed they can look back and say "I really should have seen that coming"

[DabblerWizard]

Besides everything others have said, if the players don't figure out he's a devil, you could make it attack the players at one point because it gets bored acting as part of a disguise, or just can't resist the urge to kill them, for instance.

I just felt like sharing that thought. Only a very certain kind of devil would likely enjoy, and tolerate, continuous deception over an extended period of time.

Once they find out he's a devil, you could allow the players to believe that this Wormtongue himself was always a devil. Imagine the awesomeness if they then later see Wormie.

[Kurald Galain]

Ya I could, But I feel that I need to do it do it with in some kind of rules so the players have a chance of figuring things out.

All right, but it depends heavily on what kind of players you have, and on how fast you want them to figure it out.

A subtle way would be pointing out that there's something wrong one of the people in the room then let the players figure out which one, e.g. by elimination.

[Angelmaker]

I wouldn't just fiat it. If someone's character is good at Insight they may feel cheated if you don't let them use it. Even a good roll might only get them "he seems a bit... off", but let them have that. If they do pick it, make them roll a bluff check to hide the realisation; dice rolls go both ways.

Sounds good, but since it´s plotrelevant, it´s badd to count on the luck of dice. Chances are, somebody WILL roll a 20 and then you might feel obliged to prematurely reveal the devil and thus maybe breaking your plot.

Make things happen when they are about to happen and not when a lucky dice roll says so. ( Playing with a 6 player group, this happens to me too often ;) ) Though, as been said, a good dice roll should reward in some kind of way - maybe telling the player something along the lines of "Just because of your sound distrust of this guy and your keen vigilance over him, you prevented him killing one of your group. Well done." works well. Still plot is plot. Just wanted to emphasize this.

[Guinea Anubis]

Thanks for all the help guys.

Here is what I have happening. The PC are trying to stop the BBEG (a Devil) from killing off the 7 descendants of 7 great heroes. The Elfs found out about this and put the descendant is a safe house that has a magic barrier that no Devil can cross. Since the BBEG normal minions can not get to the descendant the BBEG convinced this Wormtoungue who is an elf and an adviser to the king to help him for welth and power.

The PC showed up and wrecked hi plans to get the king to take her out of the safe house. But he is cunning and turned the PCs making him go with them in to a good thing. He summoned an Imp and had it take his place using a magic ritual he made it look like him. The ritual will only last 1 day unless the imp drinks some of his blood. So the Imp will have small flask with blood in it that he will drink from once a day.

I figure it should take this Wormtoungue about 3 days to summon some more powerful Devils to kill the guards around the safe house so he can go in and kidnap the descendant and get the heck out of there by using a Linked Portal. This should give the PC enough time to figure out whats going on and stop him if they are REALLY good. or get back in time to see the aftermath.

What do you think?

[Guinea Anubis]

Some other info that may help you guys help me.

Wormtoungue (his name in game is Vertamin) first plan is still going on, but the PC have put a big damper on it. His fist plan was this, he had a Devil disguised as an Elf steal a religious artifact from a local Lizardfolk tribe that had more or less at peace with the Elfs causing them to go to war with them to get it back. The main problem with this that the Elfs are also at a stand still war with an Orc tribe and the Orcs are now gaining ground. Vertamin did all of this so he could have the King pull the guards off of guarding the safe house.


So the Elf King as asked the PC to find out what had made the Lizardfolk mad and fix it. This is why Vertamin has changed his plans.

[Yakk]

The standard way to disguise yourself in 4e is with a Bluff check, which is opposed by Insight. Shape-changing (via magic), proper clothes, and being a stranger would all be bonuses to the Bluff check.

[chiasaur11]

Have him hold up branches in each hand.


He is a bush. Move along.