General opinion on Duskblade power and versatility

[Grifthin]

Well, I've recently rolled up a Sorceror (mailman) for a little Round-Robin Player vs player action. Unfortunately he dominated the other players so very very badly I felt a little sorry. So to atone for my sins I've rolled up a Duskblade that's very depowered. Generally speaking I wanted something that's a group player but doesn't deliver nearly as much damage. I also decided to stick to a single class as far as possible. Since we playing a fairly high stat campaign all stats start at 18 (before racial modifiers).

I came up with the following:

Grifthin, Human Dragon born of Bahamut.
Duskblade level 15
Chaotic neutral

STR 21
DEX 16
CON 20
INT 18
WIS 18
CHA 18

Skills mostly in Climb, Concentration, Decipher Script, Knowledge arcana, UMD and tumble.

Feats:
Combat Casting (from class)
Combat Expertise (for Improved trip)
Improved Trip (Mostly to take down flying dudes)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency Spiked Chain
Power attack (duh)
Arcane strike (burn spell slot get 1d4 for every level of spell slot)
Battle casting (+2 dodge bonus with defensive casting)
Reinforced wings (so I can fly with Medium armor)
Versatile Spellcasting (use 2 slots to cast 1 slot higher)

I'm using 2 flaws for the extra feats.

I'm wearing the following:
Cloak of displacement
Bracers of Entangling blast
Gauntlets of Ghost fighting
Ring of Wizardry 1
Ring of Wizardry 3
Circlet of Mages
Hand Of Glory
Ring of Sustance
Vest of resistance +5
Healing Belt
Boots of speed
Animated Mithral heavy shield +3
Mithral full plate +4
Weapon - Shocking spell storing spiked chain of speed

I envision myself as sort of a warrior light - the majority of my spells are touch (for the channeling) and things like regroup, dimension hop, Dimension door etc. Basically go in, trip enemies if they become troublesome, Nail some with a arcane striked/vampiric touched full attack and generally act as forward sentry.

Is this setup workable or made of suck ?

[graeylin]

if you want something that doesn't deliver as much damage, a duskblade is an odd choice... they are pretty much the biggest one/two shot damage dealers in the game. Going with tripping versus standard damage melee indeed makes them weaker, however, especially if you don't follow through with a hyped up attack round.

not sure that you need versatile spellcasting as a feat for a duskblade, but you typically have plenty of low level spell slots to burn, so maybe it will work for you since you aren't burning them to power your attacks as much.

if you want a less gimped class to be a forward sentry/warrior light, why not rogue? gives you better listen/spot/search, for example. And if you are gimping the duskblade down, why bother with all the melee magic?

[Jeff240sx]

Duskblades do a lot of damage very well. If you have a swift action to burn, you can quickened True Strike (or Sure Strike on full-attacks) for +20 Insight to the next attack and ignore concealment (or +5 until end of round), plus Arcane Strike for +3 or 4 untyped, +5 for strength, etc. The numbers add up quickly.
Then PA for nearly full BAB and deal immense damage.

The immediate issues I see:
Why Knowledge (Arcana) for pvp? Or Decipher Script?
Where's your Ring of Spell Battle?
You can't have that weapon without a +1 enhancement prior to those abilities being added on.
Is 20' move in your Medium armor what you really want for pvp?
Don't you need another feat before Reinforced Wings? Like Draconic Wings? I'm about 80% sure that's a chain of [Draconic] feats. Unless your template gives you wings and someone houserules you don't need to run the chain due to it.
And your equipment looks odd...
Ring of Sustenence?

And you have a lot of feats/items dedicated to combat casting, but really, you only need so much concentration (about 15, so you can hit 20 reliably for your level 5s).

I'm not an optimization guru or rules lawyer, so take it for my 2cp.

[Grifthin]

Crap - I thought they where a little underpowered - What "Tier" do they fall in ?

Sorry - I played Pvp with sorcerer originally and we now using those characters for a campaign. Hence the rings of sustenance etc.

What is a ring of Spell battle ?
Isn't fly speed higher than walk speed ?
I'm dragon blooded - doesn't having the Dragon Bloood + wings qualify me for the feat ?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Duskblades are tier 3, they are not overpowerd but their main trick is dealing ridiculous amounts of damage

[Sinfire Titan]

Crap - I thought they where a little underpowered - What "Tier" do they fall in ?

Sorry - I played Pvp with sorcerer originally and we now using those characters for a campaign. Hence the rings of sustenance etc.

What is a ring of Spell battle ?
Isn't fly speed higher than walk speed ?
I'm dragon blooded - doesn't having the Dragon Bloood + wings qualify me for the feat ?

Tier 3. Remember their spell list is in an odd place.

1: Magic item from either the MiC or from CM.
2: Usually, but some effects that grant a Fly speed only allow you to move at your land speed. Fortunately, Dragonborn is twice your land speed.
3: AFB, can't help you with this one.

Duskblades are tier 3, they are not overpowerd but their main trick is dealing ridiculous amounts of damage

4*Base Damage+20d6 Electricity isn't all that much. It's an average of 70 above the average Fighter's full attack (not a Charger build, who's first attack alone is equal to a Duskblade's Full Attack action). You have to remember that the 20d6 is Shocking Grasp 4 times, and the last two attacks have a low hit rate if your first attack has a 75% chance of hitting.

Yes, they can do a lot of damage without optimization. No, it isn't all that much by comparison to some builds. Chain Tripping in addition to Duskblade is rather good if your Arcane Channeling applies to AoOs (I don't remember myself).

[Gnaeus]

Crap - I thought they where a little underpowered - What "Tier" do they fall in ?

Duskblades are tier 3. They are about as strong as you can get for a pure damage, no utility character. Maybe you were thinking of hexblades, which are much weaker.

Are you sure you don't want combat reflexes or bracers of opportunity? Spiked chain trippers often need to make a lot of AoOs. I would certainly take combat reflexes over Battle Casting. (because it is better to put an enemy on his backside and give him a penalty to hit you and a bonus to hit him and a free AoO when he stands up than to just have a +2 AC).

[Grifthin]

I took the spiked chain mostly for style points (well that and the fact that you can hit adjacent and reach). I sort of imagine a winged soldier hitting the enemy's wing's with a barbed weapon and ripping them off.

I think I'll skip the bracers of opportunity for now and grab combat reflexes later - I think I'm going to do enough damage right now so that the other party members can shine. Thank you for the suggestion though.

[Jeff240sx]

Tier 3. Remember their spell list is in an odd place.

1: Magic item from either the MiC or from CM.
2: Usually, but some effects that grant a Fly speed only allow you to move at your land speed. Fortunately, Dragonborn is twice your land speed.
3: AFB, can't help you with this one.

1: It's from MIC. 3: You are correct, you just need wings. I was confusing that feat with the [Draconic] line from the same book.

4*Base Damage+20d6 Electricity isn't all that much.

It's 4 * Base Damage + 40d6 Untyped from Vampiric Touch. You stop the Electricity after level 9, when you get access to level 3 spells.

It's an average of 70 above the average Fighter's full attack (not a Charger build, who's first attack alone is equal to a Duskblade's Full Attack action).

If 20d6 Electricity is 70 above, 40d6 is another 70 above, for a total of 140 more than a standard fighter build. But we're not quite done yet.

The true attack (with a +1 Keen Scythe of Collision) is:
4 * [2d4 + 1(enhancement) + 7 (strength) + 5 (Collision) + 10d6 + 5d4 (Arcane Strike) + Power Attack]
Condensed, that's 28d4 + 40d6 + 52 + Power Attack.
Averaged, it's 70 + 140 + 52 + Power Attack, or 262 + PA.

Your attack bonus, at 20, is +20 + 5 (str) + 1 (enhancement) + 5 (Sure Strike) + 5 (Arcane Strike) for a unbuffed and un-optimized:
36/31/26/21.

Given a +10 Power Attack, you'd add another 80 damage, for 342 per round, assuming all hit.
With a 10% chance to do quadruple damage, dealing another 8d4 + 52 (static bonuses) + 80 (power attack), or +152 per crit.

You have to remember that the 20d6 is Shocking Grasp 4 times, and the last two attacks have a low hit rate if your first attack has a 75% chance of hitting.

You'd use Vampiric Touch for 40d6, and +36 attack bonus has a great to-hit.

Yes, they can do a lot of damage without optimization. No, it isn't all that much by comparison to some builds. Chain Tripping in addition to Duskblade is rather good if your Arcane Channeling applies to AoOs (I don't remember myself).

Arcane Channeling does not apply to AoOs, it ends at the end of the round. The +5d4 damage and +5 attack bonus last 1 round, affecting AoOs.

[Last Laugh]

Don't forget about Arcane Strike (CW)
that's +Spell level to hit and +Spell Level * d4 to damage on every attack until your next turn. (the +d4 stacks with itself I think...)

And they get enough spell slots to use it every turn for +3 or +4

[cZak]

It's 4 * Base Damage + 40d6 Untyped from Vampiric Touch. You stop the Electricity after level 9, when you get access to level 3 spells.

The true attack (with a +1 Keen Scythe of Collision) is:
4 * [2d4 + 1(enhancement) + 7 (strength) + 5 (Collision) + 10d6 + 5d4 (Arcane Strike) + Power Attack]
Condensed, that's 28d4 + 40d6 + 52 + Power Attack.

You'd use Vampiric Touch for 40d6, and +36 attack bonus has a great to-hit.

Are you saying you get the Vampiric Touch damage on each hit; i.e. 4 attacks/ round = 4 Vampiric touches on each successful attack?
Is this the mechanic for magic touch attacks; Shocking grasp, Chill touch, Vampiric touch, et al? I always thought they were just a single attack and damage.

[Sinfire Titan]

Are you saying you get the Vampiric Touch damage on each hit; i.e. 4 attacks/ round = 4 Vampiric touches on each successful attack?
Is this the mechanic for magic touch attacks; Shocking grasp, Chill touch, Vampiric touch, et al? I always thought they were just a single attack and damage.

No, that's the Duskblade's special Class Feature. It's the exception to the rule.

[Master_Rahl22]

General opinion on Duskblade power: Awesome. It has been mentioned before, but True Strike + Power Attack + Channeling = KERSPLAT just about anything

General opinion on Duskblade versatility: Eh, not much. They can't serve as the primary arcane caster cause their short spell list has almost 0 non-combat spells. One fun thing that can help a bit is to grab Knowledge Devotion since they get all Knowledges as class skills, and just make Knowledge checks right and left. It's an extra combat boost, but it can also provide you with that useful tidbit that saves the party from a TPK.

[Person_Man]

Duskblades are tier 3. They are about as strong as you can get for a pure damage, no utility character. Maybe you were thinking of hexblades, which are much weaker.

While the Hexblade lacks the inherent ability to channel spells and has a poorer spell progression, they have a much better spell list. It includes Alter Self, Whirling Blade, Swift Invisibility, Spectral Weapon, Dominate Person, and Polymorph, just to name a few. It's a very good mix of buffs, debuffs, and Save or Screwed, whereas the Duskblade is mostly direct damage. The Hexblade just requires much more rules mastery to be used effectively (wands, Share Spells, a thorough knowledge of all the various things you can turn into, etc).

[arguskos]

Because we get Duskblade threads every few weeks, I feel the overwhelming urge to post Roland's Expanded Duskblade List

Spoiler

Show

Duskblade spell list Expansion:
L0
Caltrops
Electric Jolt
Know Greatest Enemy
Launch Item
Stick

L1
Corrosive Grasp
Critical Strike
Deafening Clang
Fist of Stone
Ice Dagger
Lightfoot
Nerveskitter
Nightshield
Persistent Blade
Phantom Threat
Rhino's Rush
Snowshoes

L2
Battering Ram
Bladeweave
Body of the Sun
Bristle
Combust
Daggerspell Stance
Delusions of Grandeur
Fireburst
Flame Dagger
Infernal Wound
Ironthunder Horn
Mountain Stance
Rainbow Beam
Scorch
Shadow Spray
Weapon Shift
Wracking Touch

L3
Belker Claws
Body Blades
Clarity of Mind
Diamondsteel
Find the Gap
Knight's Move
Know Opponent
Moon Blade
Ring of Blades
Spectral Weapon
Spider Poison
Steeldance
Sppress Breath Weapon
Unluck
Whirling Blade

L4
Bands of Steel
Blindsight
Displacer Form
Flame Whips
Forcewave
Frost Breath
Lion's Charge
Mind Poison
Vulnerability

L5
Acid Sheath
Aura of Evasion
Charge of the Triceratops
Emerald Flame Fist
Fireburst, Greater
Girallon's Blessing
Ray Deflection
Translocation Trick

Complete Mage
Assassin Spells
Bloodletting (1)
Catsfeet (1)
Summon Weapon (2)
Rusted Blade (3) (or (4) as per Wiz/Sorc list)
Unseen Strike (4)

Wiz/Sorc Spells
Steam Jet (1)
Escalating Enfeeblement (2)
Heart of Air (2)
Tenacious Dispelling (3)
Heart of Water (3)
Prickling Torment (3)
Heart of Earth (4)
Crypt Warden's Grasp (5)
Touch of Vecna (5)
Heart of Fire (5)
Tactical Teleportation (6) as (5)

[Gnaeus]

While the Hexblade lacks the inherent ability to channel spells and has a poorer spell progression, they have a much better spell list. It includes Alter Self, Whirling Blade, Swift Invisibility, Spectral Weapon, Dominate Person, and Polymorph, just to name a few. It's a very good mix of buffs, debuffs, and Save or Screwed, whereas the Duskblade is mostly direct damage. The Hexblade just requires much more rules mastery to be used effectively (wands, Share Spells, a thorough knowledge of all the various things you can turn into, etc).

A Lev 15 Duskblade with an 18 casting stat casts 33 spells per day out of 16 spells known (6 4th level spells from 3 known). a Lev 15 Hexblade casts 9, out of 11 known (1 4th level spell from 2 known). The hexblade list isn't THAT much better. If the character has money for a million wands the Duskblade can dip a level of Wizard (for all Sor/wiz wands) or Rogue or Bard or Factotum or Beguiler (for UMD) and still be a much better caster than a hexblade.

[Sinfire Titan]

A Lev 15 Duskblade with an 18 casting stat casts 33 spells per day out of 16 spells known (6 4th level spells from 3 known). a Lev 15 Hexblade casts 9, out of 11 known (1 4th level spell from 2 known). The hexblade list isn't THAT much better. If the character has money for a million wands the Duskblade can dip a level of Wizard (for all Sor/wiz wands) or Rogue or Bard or Factotum or Beguiler (for UMD) and still be a much better caster than a hexblade.

Duskblades can also get Arcane Disciple for a few of the spells the Hexblade gets. Couple that with Memento Magicas from RotD, and the fact that the Duskblade's highest level spell is 5th, and you only need a Wis of 15 to use those spells whenever you need them. 3 castings of Extended Alter Self lasts all day at 20th level.

Edit: Not saying the Hexblade can't either, but more spells known makes it easier on the Duskblade.

[Blackfang108]

Um... Duskblade's an INT based caster.

Or does one of those things change it, Sinfire?

[Vikazc]

Do bear in mind, the Duskblades full attack channel does not allow you to hit one target multiple times with one touch spell, in one round. It only allows you to hit multiple targets once each with a touch spell as a full attack action.

[Whyte_Widow]

unfortunately for me Duskblades are banned at my table due to being OP.

[Sinfire Titan]

Um... Duskblade's an INT based caster.

Or does one of those things change it, Sinfire?

Arcane Disciple spells are based on Wis, so you need at least a 15 to cast all of the ones you can take.

Do bear in mind, the Duskblades full attack channel does not allow you to hit one target multiple times with one touch spell, in one round. It only allows you to hit multiple targets once each with a touch spell as a full attack action.

This is heavily debated. If the nerf does apply, it should also be applied to the Split Ray metamagic feat (otherwise the big guys get something better than the Duskblade, and you just nerfed a Tier 3 class for a very bad reason).

[Math_Mage]

unfortunately for me Duskblades are banned at my table due to being OP.

But Clerics and Sorcerers aren't?
...not going there, not going there...

[Whyte_Widow]

But Clerics and Sorcerers aren't?
...not going there, not going there...

RESIST THE URGE! <3

[Amphetryon]

Um... Duskblade's an INT based caster.

Or does one of those things change it, Sinfire?

Arcane Disciple needs WIS for that particular pool of spells.

EDIT: Wow, three ninjas. They're everywhere!

[Vikazc]

It seems pretty cut and dry in the text honestly,

"At 13th level you can cast any touch spell you know as part of a full attack action, and the spell affects each target you hit in melee that round."

Doesn't affect each strike, doesn't affect each attack, it affects each target...once.

[Runestar]

It would have been so easy to rule that when you have bab6+, arcane channeling simply let you cast a touch spell as part of a full attack (thereby limiting it to just 1 target). This also does away with the awkward breakpoints (why does full channeling come only at lv13?).

[Sinfire Titan]

It seems pretty cut and dry in the text honestly,

"At 13th level you can cast any touch spell you know as part of a full attack action, and the spell affects each target you hit in melee that round."

Doesn't affect each strike, doesn't affect each attack, it affects each target...once.

Same thing applies to the "Only once per target" restriction. It says it affects each target you hit in that round, but nowhere in the text does it say that if you only hit one target the spell affects them only once. There's a precedent for this from both sides (Chain Lightning, Magic Missile, in order).


As I said, it's debateable.

[amaranth69]

Duskblade is by far my favorite 3.5 character class. If you want your other party members to shine, take mostly knowledge feats, and be the brains of the operation. Otherwise, you can keep the spiked chain and combat reflexes, trip everything in sight, then trip them again on the AoO when they get up. Sooner or later the DM will outright kill you for being annoying. hehe

[tyckspoon]

Otherwise, you can keep the spiked chain and combat reflexes, trip everything in sight, then trip them again on the AoO when they get up.

AoO don't work like that. The action happens before the provoking event, which means that when you make an AoO triggered by 'target standing from prone' he's still prone. Nothing useful is gained by tripping him again at that point.. although you can feel free to score a cheap hit while you have the extra +4 to hit against a prone target.

[Sinfire Titan]

AoO don't work like that. The action happens before the provoking event, which means that when you make an AoO triggered by 'target standing from prone' he's still prone. Nothing useful is gained by tripping him again at that point.. although you can feel free to score a cheap hit while you have the extra +4 to hit against a prone target.

ORLY?

Spoiler

Show