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2010-04-14, 09:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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How to run an overpowered encounter
Here's the thing. I have a cool encounter planned for near the end of a campaign, including two monsters, one with CR 36, and one with CR 40. I do not want to make the monsters any less powerful, I want them to rip through the fairly strong defenders of the city they are attacking like tissue paper.
But I want the PCs to be able to beat them. The problem is that even if I let the PCs get to, like, high epic level, these monsters are strong enough that the monsters would probably still win. I don't want to add some super strong ally on the side of the PCs, because that would be lame, and I don't want to give them any kind of superartifact that helps them win. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to make it so that the PCs can stand a fighting chance without souping down the monsters or cheating by giving them help?
Thanks.
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2010-04-14, 09:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- The Land of Angles
Re: How to run an overpowered encounter
Epic pretty much boils down to who acts first. By around level 25 to 30 it doesn't matter what CR something is.
And if there's a full caster in the party who took Epic Spellcasting at level 21, well. The PCs win. End of story.
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2010-04-14, 09:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
Re: How to run an overpowered encounter
Dude, a CR 10 can tear a city a new one. CR 40? Able to fight deities and win. The odds are somewhat against it, but they can.
Hell, Asmodeus as printed has a CR 31 (BoVD) or 25 (FC2). You're talking about something that can thrash him.
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2010-04-14, 10:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to run an overpowered encounter
Well... you have monsters that you are certain will annihilate the PCs in a fair fight, you don't want to nerf the monsters, and you don't want to help the PCs by giving them an Artifact-of-CR36-monster-slaying or having an NPC share the glory...
How about making it into more of a puzzle encounter than a head-on collision?Halfling healer avatar by Akrim.elf.
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2010-04-14, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to run an overpowered encounter
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_of_the_Colossus -Style!
Epic. They have to climb that bitch and hit him where it hurts.
Assuming of course those two are that big.
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2010-04-14, 10:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: How to run an overpowered encounter
Perhaps the monsters have a hidden weakness. The PCs learn of the impending attack well in advance, and have the opportunity to research or find this hidden weakness.
This sort of encounter is like Theseus facing the Medusa. If Theseus walked in unprepared, he'd be a lawn ornament. Knowing he was facing a creature whose direct gaze could turn him to stone, he brought a mirrored shield and with it's help, was able to defeat her fairly easily.
Alternately, I half-remember a story in which Hercules fought some manner of giant or earth spirit or something. It basically had infinite healing as long as it was touching the ground. Hercules figured this out, grappled it, lifted it off the ground above his head, and slowly crushed the life out of it while he held it in the air.
The problem with these "trick" encounters is that while the author simply decides that the hero is clever and comes up with a trick for defeating the impossible encounters, you aren't the author, and the players may not tumble to your intended trick. This can result in one of two negative outcomes: a) you TPK them because they didn't think to fight the monster "the right way", or b) you lead them by the nose to perform the trick, and they get annoyed with you for railroading them through what was more of a cutscene with dice rolls than an actual encounter. Try to avoid those two outcomes.Last edited by jiriku; 2010-04-14 at 10:31 AM.
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2010-04-14, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to run an overpowered encounter
The other alternative is to just play the monsters really, really stupid. As in, Int 1 or lower stupid, regardless of what their Int score actually is. Let the players attack them and hurt/damage them, but they ignore the heroes tearing giant chunks off their bodies to keep eating buildings and squashing city guards who can't scratch their HP totals. If you do it right, it could still be an interesting encounter, as the players fight to bring them down or cripple them before they demolish too much of the city - maybe even have a total number of buildings surviving that you treat as their 'HP score' instead of the player's HP totals. Have minions or spawns accompanying them to distract or threaten the players, but your two giant monsters don't even notice them.
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2010-04-14, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
Re: How to run an overpowered encounter
Out of curiosity, what are these monsters?
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2010-04-14, 11:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2005
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- Toronto, City of Spires
Re: How to run an overpowered encounter
This would be awesome. It's not a D&D-battle any more, it's fending off a Cloverfield!
If you run it in this sort of way, you can easily have a group of 18s-20s fight these monsters by working to attack with huge strikes and stationary city defenses (magical seige weapons, the like) while working to evade the monsters' notice for as long as possible. If they end up standing out in the open and trying to slug it out with the monsters, they'll get annihilated, but the monsters are big and powerful enough that they're more focused on destroying buildings and gobbling up crowds, than chasing down individuals they can barely spot.That is not dead which can eternal lie
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2010-04-14, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
Re: How to run an overpowered encounter
Well a creature with a really high damage reduction in a fairly exotic type could work the pcs just need to go on a quest to find it. Alternatively say its a casting type creature it could have burned all its spells. I would suggest against epic it functions poorly in my opinion you need a monster that can crush a city with strong defenders Well unless they have a lot of level 10+ defenders a pair of pit fiends could devastate a city with ease spamming fire balls or blasphemy's and create undead.
Just teleport into a crowd of fleeing pepole blasphemy them create some undead teleport away repeat undead kill more towns folk create more undead. few cities even with strong guardians could with stand that
A balor dosent have the same synergy with the create undead but a pair of balors one could could daze with blasphemy and the other could beat on the disabled prey and that's only if your near cr 20 pepole 10 or less are killed outright
Both non epic and easily capable of destroying a city even one with high level defenders.
Edit
Of course in regards to some secret way to destroy the monsters dont just give it to them or rely on them guessing it make them go on a quest for it. Let them learn the monsters strengths and get items to ignore or resist them.Last edited by awa; 2010-04-14 at 12:10 PM.
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2010-04-14, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to run an overpowered encounter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_of_the_Colossus
Here's the page in English.
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2010-04-14, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to run an overpowered encounter
Give them a sneaky weakness of some sort
AC - Ref
Will - Fort
If a player attacks one defense then it is Immune to the NEXT attack that targets that defense BUT an attack that targets the paired defense auto hits (maybe does 1/2 damage tho?).
Make them roll normally and don't let them on to it either and see how long it takes them to figure it out :P With spells just make them assume it was Spell Resistance or some sort of "shimmering light" around them that protects them from spells :p
I know this works well in 4e but I'm not so sure about 3.X
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2010-04-14, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to run an overpowered encounter
Thanks for all the ideas, everybody. I like both the idea of creating some weapon to make it easier if the PCs figure it out, and of playing the monsters as ignoring them.
The monsters are a Paragon Phane and a Xixecal, with a long backstory in the campaign that I don't really want to spam the forums by posting. My idea is that since the Phane both has the ability to summon parallel versions of its foes, and can only take lethal damage from weapons from the future or a parallel universe, I can have it so that the Phane has summoned parallel versions of the PCs. The melee characters who wish to stand a fighting chance against the Phane will need to track down their parallel selves, either before or in the battle, and take the parallel version of their weapon by some means. That should allow them to bypass its regeneration and its DR, if their basic weapon is epic. The epic casters might have to have special epic spells researched to get past its insane spell resistance, but they should be able to manage it if I drop clues around the time they become epic about spells simply 'bouncing off' the abominations.
The Xixecal is a different matter, and throws quite a wrench in the works. The permanent dire winter effect would probably be enough to beat out the PCs in the time it takes just to kill the Phane. Since it is much more noticeable than the Phane, most of the NPCs will probably be attacking the Xixecal. As long as the PCs target the Xixecal first, an epic group using fire should be able to take it down before too long.
I also plan to lower the saving throws of them both down by just a bit- enough to make them still maddeningly strong, but not impossible to hit with anything. I appreciate all of your advice, thanks very much!
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2010-04-14, 04:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: How to run an overpowered encounter
What levels are the PC's? I know you said "get to high epic level" but that doesn't say much.
If the monster's whole goal is to reach a certain object and destroy it, the PC's goal could be to kill the monster in the X rounds it will take for the monster to reach the thing it wants.
Throw in a few weaker area effects from the monsters to deal with distractions like guards and PC's, and you've got something that's dangerous and tough to kill, yet won't destroy the PC's utterly because it's focusing all it's attention on another goal.
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2010-04-14, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to run an overpowered encounter
I've never understood how people talked seriously about 3.5 epic levels. I mean, it's fine and dandy for non-spellcasting (okay, it isn't, but it is manageable), but epic spellcasting is pretty much impossible to fix without starting over from scratch.
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2010-04-14, 05:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to run an overpowered encounter
I think I remember a thread about non-epic characters beating a Xixecal once, though I can't remember the title and how the discussion ended.
Given that a city's militia is usually composed of Lv 1-3 warriors, a single CR 10 monster will probably tear a city apart, especially if it's got DR/magic. :P
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2010-04-14, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-04-14, 05:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to run an overpowered encounter
Give the PC's a heads up and time to plan. Let them sort it out. Well planned PC's should be able to handle a lot of extra CR.
Look up the SCS archive on this site and check out how their GM and group handled a similar situation (at admittedly much lower levels)
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2010-04-14, 06:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: How to run an overpowered encounter
In conjunction with this suggestion and with the idea for the "we're ignoring you" attitude on the part of the monsters, consider giving the PCs a combat goal that doesn't require the destruction of the epic monsters. This sort of setup rewards lateral thinking.
For example, the monster's goal is to level every structure in the town. The PC's goal is to protect a specific structure. Direct combat is certainly a viable option for protecting the structure, but it's not the only solution. They might erect an invulnerable barrier, use illusions to trick the monsters into leaving, use themselves as bait to lure the monsters away, or try something else altogether.Subclasses for 5E: magus of blades, shadowcraft assassin, spellthief, void disciple
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2010-04-14, 09:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to run an overpowered encounter
It IS an elite city, so the defenders are levels 12-16.
The goal of the monsters is to reach and awaken a sleeping deity beneath the city. The Xixecal, which is much bigger than the Phane, is going to essentially distract the entire city and level as much as it can. At the same time, the Phane will streak through the city at incredible speeds, searching for the hidden entrance to the god's chamber and killing everyone in its way.
The idea would be that the PCs would be trying to protect the city by stopping the Xixecal, and stop the Phane before it reaches and finds the deity.. I've incorporated a lot of the ideas you all suggested into my new plan. I really appreciate all the help.Last edited by Magicyop; 2010-04-14 at 09:22 PM.
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2010-04-14, 09:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: How to run an overpowered encounter
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