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  1. - Top - End - #1351
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashligh

    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Using a lot of stuff in 1000 point games is considered cheap, like SC or Land Raiders.
    Hmm...

    Spoiler
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    HQ
    Emperor's Champion
    Accept any challange, no matter the odds
    140 points

    Troops
    Crusader Squad
    8 initiates, 2 neophytes, melta gun, power sword, land raider crusader
    433 points

    Crusader Squad
    8 initiates, 2 neophytes, melta gun, land raider crusader with smoke launchers
    426 points

    total 999 points


    No, I haven't actually done that. Mainly because I haven't played a 1000 point game since I bought my land raiders.

    I'd probably actually use

    Spoiler
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    HQ
    Emperor's Champion
    Accept any challange, no matter the odds
    140 points

    Crusader Squad
    7 initiates, 4 neophytes, flamer, land raider crusader
    423 points

    Crusader Squad
    5 initiates, 5 neophytes, frag grenades, melta gun, power weapon, rhino with extra armour and smoke launchers
    218

    Crusader Squad
    5 initiates, 5 neophytes, frag grenades, melta gun, power weapon, rhino with extra armour and smoke launchers
    218


    anyway.
    Last edited by Closet_Skeleton; 2010-06-14 at 04:22 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #1352
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashligh

    Well really that list isn't that great for anything besides killpoint denial. Sure at 1k there won't be a lot of things that can take out a land raider but you don't have much of anything that can take an objective. Unless the objectives are out in the open (usually they aren't) you have to get out of the LR.

  3. - Top - End - #1353
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashligh

    Speaking of "cheap" things... the army I just faced was... incredible.

    It was a 2v2, 4000 points per side. My ally was another Chaos Space Marine player. Our opponents? Imperial Guard and Orks.

    With such things as Big Meks providing Kustom Force Fields protecting all the Imperial Guard Leman Russes, Basilisks and (on the first turn) Chimeras. Imperial Priests allowing mobs of Boyz and Nobs to reroll their attacks. Yarrick allowing a Nob unit (all with different equipment, of course) to re-roll their attacks, while benefiting from the Mad Doc. Oh, and Ghazghull was in the same unit, too, and benefited from Yarrick's re-rolls as well. Orc mobs that consisted of one cluster of Orcs... with a small line of Orcs at the side leading to the next Big Mek, to have one model within 6" of it and benefit from the Force Field, even though the majority of the mob was more like thrice as much away from it.

    We were tabled in three turns, and I'm doubtful we killed more than 200 points at best.
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  4. - Top - End - #1354
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashligh

    Quote Originally Posted by Kzickas View Post
    Using special characters in 1000 points is considered cheap?
    Not really. Dark Angels don't really have a choice in the matter if they actually want to do well. Besides, their characters aren't that good anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Stuff
    You know when you play 2v2 battles, your partner isn't supposed actually benefit from your armies' special rules? And that everything is supposed to have a Daemon-like rule that says your armies' can't have units with an Independent Character attached to a non-List unit?

    It keeps things fair.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2010-06-14 at 05:26 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #1355
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashligh

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    You know when you play 2v2 battles, your partner isn't supposed actually benefit from your armies' special rules? And that everything is supposed to have a Daemon-like rule that says your armies' can't have units with an Independent Character attached to a non-List unit?

    It keeps things fair.
    I bet it would, but alas, neither me nor anyone else at the table was aware of any such rules. Nor any of the spectators, nor the GW employees that took a look at the game every once in a while. Nor, as far as I can tell, the core rulebook itself...

    Plus, the Force Field for example quite explicitly doesn't specify Ork or even friendly units - as far as I can tell, it would give a save even to enemy units that were close enough to the Big Mek.
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  6. - Top - End - #1356
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashligh

    Unfortunately not taking Sammael means I can't take the bikers as troops, meaning I'd have to make room for 2 Tac. Squads.
    That's fair - I'd actually forgotten that Ravenwing Bikers are bought in units of 3 or 6, thinking they started at 3 and were bought one at a time like Vanilla Marine Bikers.

    On reflection, I might have given you bad advice - a 3-man Biker unit is quite a risk that I personally wouldn't want to try even in a small game. In all honesty, I'd probably try to take 2 squads of 6 Bikers and drop the Landspeeder/Terminator's upgrades in favour of another Attack bike:

    Spoiler
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    Sammael

    6x Ravenwing Bikers
    Melta Bombs
    Meltagun
    Attack Bike w/ Heavy Bolter/multimelta

    6x Ravenwing Bikers
    Melta Bombs
    Meltagun
    Attack Bike w/ Heavy Bolter/multimelta

    5x "Assault" Terminators ~990


    ......Which I admit looks very little like your original list but would - to my mind - be a stronger list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    I'd probably actually use

    *Insert Army List*

    anyway.
    I must admit - to my shame - that I have been known to turn up to a 1,000 point game with:

    Spoiler
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    Farseer with Singing Spear and 'Fortune'

    10x Wraithguard
    +Spiritseer w/Conceal and Singing Spear
    10x Wraithguard
    +Spiritseer w/Conceal and Singing Spear


    ....Although I wasn't laughed at quite so badly as I had expected

    Using special characters in 1000 points is considered cheap?
    A lot of players think Special Characters should be reserved for games of 2000 points or more, presumably because 1) they usually work better when you have points to spend on other units that work well with them and 2) it's a throw back to the previous edition in which you had to ask permission to use Special Characters in your army at all.

    I, personally, can remember playing in the edition prior to that where it was perfectly legal to take 1500 points of Special Characters in a 2000 points army, if you really wanted to, so I tend not to worry about someone turning up with just 1 such model

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind
    Orks! Fah-sands of 'em!
    Ah good, a living demonstration of Rules As Written versus Rules As Intended. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean that you should
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    RPG Characters What I Done Played As (Explained Badly)
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  7. - Top - End - #1357
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashligh

    I remember the old tyranid codex where Old One Eye was illegal in games above 1500 points. That was a weird rule and led to me never using him. Not that I really had 1500+ points back then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I, personally, can remember playing in the edition prior to that where it was perfectly legal to take 1500 points of Special Characters in a 2000 points army, if you really wanted to, so I tend not to worry about someone turning up with just 1 such model
    That wasn't possible in 2nd edition because the characters cap was 50%.

    There wasn't anything stopping you taking 1000 points of special characters, 500 points of tanks and 500 points of terminators though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    Well really that list isn't that great for anything besides killpoint denial. Sure at 1k there won't be a lot of things that can take out a land raider but you don't have much of anything that can take an objective. Unless the objectives are out in the open (usually they aren't) you have to get out of the LR.
    When I have to get out of the land raider I have 30 prefered enemy S4 I4 attacks. I can tear through infantry and melt tanks pretty easily. It's only heavy infantry that would screw me over and I have no idea how common hammernatiors are in 1000 points.
    Last edited by Closet_Skeleton; 2010-06-14 at 06:37 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #1358
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashligh

    After reading and writing so many 'clean' lists over the last few weeks (there was quite a large tournament in my area about a week ago, and I read most of them)...And then coming onto this forum...

    Cheesegear wants people to know How to Write an Army List.

    Spoiler
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    The Basics
    First of all, let's be clear; An army list is supposed to be easy to read. A TO, or the experienced internet reader should only need to glance at your list to know what's going on. If a question is asked about your list, such as "What does that mean?", it means that you've done your list wrong. To that end, the first thing you need to know about your list is to never. Use. Abbreviations.

    When can you write shorthand? Never.

    Also in line with the above, nobody wants to read through redundant crap that they already know. You don't need to write that your Space Marines have Bolters. It's right there in the Codex. You start with it, and you can't get rid of it. Everyone knows that a Tactical Marine carries a Bolter. You don't need to write it. The only things you need to write are the options for any given unit.
    More recent Codecies give you the option of replacing X and/or Y for Wargear. Write what else you have, what did you not replace? People need to know that.
    If you write nothing, it assumes that no options are taken, and whatever is default is what you've got. Keep in mind that more recent Codecies give 'or' default options. People need to know what you took.

    Like things, should be written on the same line. For example, if you have a Flamer and a Missile Launcher in the same unit, they both go on the same line. Seperated by a comma (,). Squad Sergeants and other like 'character models' should always be written on a new line.
    Also, with keeping your list short, how many models are in the squad? Are there a 'Tactical Squad with 5 extra marines', or is there a 'Tactical Squad, x10'?
    Options, like everything else, should always be written in the Order that they appear in the Codex.

    Independent Character Warger can often be tricky to write. [Weapons], [Armour], [Everything Else]. Wargear that changes the Unit Type of the IC - such as Bikes/Jetbikes or Jump Packs - are usually written as the first thing, or the last thing on the line. Terminator Armour is also usally written as the first thing on the line as it determines all other wargear. Ultimately, there are no hard and fast rules for IC Wargear. Just make sure that it makes sense, and follows some kind of order.
    Psychic Powers are usually written on a seperate line. Psychic Powers are chosen as part of the list (Eldar Powers even cost points), and you do have to write them down.

    Ultimately, if you're using more than 3 lines to write your unit, you're doing it wrong. There are very few units with more than one 'character model' that needs it's own seperate line. Units such as Ork Nobz, Space Wolf Wolf Guard, Eldar Seer Councicals and Eldar Harlequins can often look unweildy on the page. But those are the exceptions, not the rule. And you should write those units just like you would everything else. If you have two identical character models, do no write them seperately.
    If your unit is not an 'unwiedly unit', and you're taking less than three lines to write your unit, chances are you're missing something, or being super confusing. Or have no options for the unit.

    Order
    It's easier for everyone, if you write all your units in the order that they appear in the Codex. That way, your reader only needs to go forwards in his Codex as he reads your list. Or, a TO can look at your models on the board and force you to show him your list, if he's looking for a Heavy Support unit, his eyes will go straight to the bottom of the page, and then it's not there, and he has to read your whole list just to find the one unit...

    To that end, lists should always be written as
    HQ => Elites => Troops => Fast Attack => Heavy Support

    The single exception to this rule is Space Marines, who write Troops => Elites. Why? For no apparent reason. That's why. Most people will write Space Marine lists as Elites => Troops anyway, because. Force of Habit? Same as everyone else? Who knows? Anyway, now that you've read this, you should too. Somehow, nobobdy has a problem with it.

    Multiple units of the same Force Organisation slot should be written in the order that they appear the Codex. Dire Avengers should appear in your list before, say, Guardian Jetbikes. Furthermore, larger units of the same unit, should also appear before the smaller units. Units with Transports (regardless of unit size) should also take precedence over units without Transports. It cleans up the list. Basically, the more options/lines you take to write your list, the further 'up' it should go.

    Unit 1 with Transport
    Unit 1
    Unit 2 with 10 models
    Unit 2 with 6 models
    Unit 3 with 7 models and a Transport
    Unit 3 with 10 models

    Additions to the unit are any such model that can't be identified in the 'x#' marker of the unit - such as Dedicated Transports, Eldar Warlocks, or Space Wolf Wolf Guard, Thousand Sons Sorcerers - should be clearly marked as being attached to the unit that they're attached to. Often by a '+' or '-'. Not written at the very bottom of your list where it could be inferred that they could be attached to anything. Such things are normally chosen as part of the unit, and your list should reflect as such.

    For example, an Eldar Spiritseer can't be represented using 'Wraithguard, x5' or a Thousand Sons Aspiring Sorcerer is actually a seperate model to 'Thousand Sons, x7', as these are not upgrades like Sergeant models, but entirely seperate models with their own points cost, they need to be added to the unit. But, they are still part of the unit.

    In regards to Dedicated Transports, many players include their points cost as part of the unit's whole. It doesn't really make a difference how the list is read, but, there's less numbers involved.

    When writing Independent Characters, the unit that 'you want them to go with' should never be written directly underneath the IC. ICs can be attached to any unit they want. Unless the unit is a bona fide retinue unit that the IC is forced to be with (which are only found in older Codecies anyway), the unit the IC travels with should always be written in it's appropriate section. If it's super important, you can make a note of it underneath the list.

    Points Costs
    What Point Bracket are you playing in? It's important to know. 1000, 1500 and 1750 are the most common. Tournaments are usually run in the 1500 or 1750 bracket. Most casual games are done at 1500 or 2000. Unless you're part of a tournament crowd who see no need to play over 1750. 2000 point games take too long.

    Always list the points cost of your unit. Either next to the unit's name, or underneath the unit on a new line. Either way is up to you. One takes up a whole line by itself, one doesn't. Choose wisely. People need to know how much your unit costs (and if you've calcuated wrong/cheating) and what point bracket you're playing in because there are some choices that are just bad or unfair.

    Show your point total. If it's not exactly the point bracket that you're playing in, people need to know that. Especially if you're posting on the internet for criticisms. There are a lot of savvy people on the internet who can do a whole lot with the 2 spare points that you haven't used.

    ************************
    Do not, ever show individual points costs for options and Wargear. It's one of the very, very few things GW doesn't let people talk about. So, just don't do it. On other forums (where the mods are 40K-savvy), posters have been banned, and whole websites have been suspended or shut down for showing Wargear Costs. Yeah. That's all it takes. Just write that you have the Wargear. Nothing else. Don't write points.
    ************************

    Posting on the Internet, or, How to Take Criticisms
    Unless you've come out and said that your list is the greatest thing in the whole wide world (when it isn't) and there's nothing that can beat it (when there is), and nobody would want to change it (when they do), nobody on the internet is really out to get you. Your list is not bad, and you shouldn't feel bad. Sometimes your list is bad, but, you still shouldn't feel bad.

    And, it's sad but true, What You Like, and What Is Good are usually two completely different things. If there are certain units that you like and want to keep in your list, make sure people know that. Thematic Lists are rarely Good Lists. If you want to preserve a list's theme, make sure people know that.

    Also, lists posted online are generally looked at for 'all-comers', which, essentially means you'll be playing ~60% Marines (any colour) or Marine Equivalents (Chaos Marines, Sisters, Necrons, etc), and ~40% everything else. If this is not the case (like you bought AoBR and all you ever play against is Orks), you should tell people that.

    When posting a list 'of the models you have', make sure people know that. Make sure people know that you can't afford/get different models. They'll still probably hate your list, but, at least they'll know that there's nothing you can do about it.

    However, do take note, that 'on the internet', the fact that you don't have or can't afford models is not really an excuse. Because the simple response is "Why not? You should."
    If your list is bad, it's bad. And people will tell you so (but, that doesn't make it an attack on you, personally. Don't get too defensive). Because of this, at least think about trying to get the models sometime in the near future.

    *Sample List in the near future.*
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2010-06-15 at 02:56 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #1359
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashligh

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    You know when you play 2v2 battles, your partner isn't supposed actually benefit from your armies' special rules? And that everything is supposed to have a Daemon-like rule that says your armies' can't have units with an Independent Character attached to a non-List unit?

    It keeps things fair.
    What
    Where does it say that?
    Half the fun of a XvX battle is finding the synergy between your codices. Like having Markerlights on Lootas, or Fortune on Nobs.
    I do agree though, that units with restrictions on transports, like Terminators, Meganobs, and Wraithguard should not be able to embark willy-nilly.
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  10. - Top - End - #1360
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashligh

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja Chocobo View Post
    Where does it say that?
    It doesn't. It's more of an unspoken rule (RAI vs. RAW). Clearly the developers never intended for Commissar Yarrick and Ghazgkull to be in the same unit. Think about it. Just a little bit.

    40K isn't really designed for 2v2 battles. 1v1v1v1 it does just fine.

    But, why would Tau get +1 Attack from a Space Marine's Banner? It's all a bunch of common sense, really. Why would your list's things benefit anything else?

    It's also more fair and less broken.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2010-06-14 at 07:22 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #1361
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashligh

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    When can you write shorthand? Never.
    Alternate: When you don't intend the list to be read by anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Like things, should be written on the same line. For example, if you have a Flamer and a Missile Launcher in the same unit, they both go on the same line. Seperated by a comma (,). Squad Sergeants and other like 'character models' should always be written on a new line.
    Disagreein' with this. I think new lines are acceptable for any unit upgrade or wargear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    To that end, lists should always be written as
    HQ => Elites => Troops => Fast Attack => Heavy Support
    I write mine as HQ -> Troops -> Etc. Why? Because the most important units in the game should go first in the list. It's the base-line for the force org chart. They're the only things that really, really matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    It doesn't. It's more of an unspoken rule (RAI vs. RAW). Clearly the developers never intended for Commissar Yarrick and Ghazgkull to be in the same unit. Think about it. Just a little bit.
    Man that unit costs like five hundo points just in attached characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    But, why would Tau get +1 Attack from a Space Marine's Banner? It's all a bunch of common sense, really. Why would your list's things benefit anything else?
    Because the zeal of the Marines inspires the Tau to fight harder? Orks aren't good at shooting but it's a lot easier to shoot a big glowy thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    It's also more fair and less broken.
    But that's where the fun is. It's like Apocalypse. The crazy stuff is balanced by the other crazy stuff.
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  12. - Top - End - #1362
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashligh

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja Chocobo View Post
    Alternate: When you don't intend the list to be read by anyone else.
    True. Although I rarely have my list looked at by nobody. The rulebook even says that your list should be available-on-request if your opponent asks for it (unlike WHFB, where secrecy is kind of important). A TO is required to read your list before the tournament, and can ask to see it anytime he wants during the tournament. As part of Sportsmanship, I usually ask my opponent if he wants to see my list after the game if he hasn't already done so.

    Also, shorthand is useful if you're writing a battle report and you're not actually intending to list to be reviewed or 'fixed' in any way. It's also highly useful for explaining your opponent's units that you have no idea/can't remember what they have. But still, 'shorthand' is not a liscense to use abbreviations. Just don't use them.

    Disagreein' with this. I think new lines are acceptable for any unit upgrade or wargear.
    But it's unneccesary. If you keep everything 'clean', you have to read less lines, and it takes up less space on paper/screen so you don't have to read one word lines. Does 'Flamer' really need a line all to itself?

    I write mine as HQ -> Troops -> Etc. Why? Because the most important units in the game should go first in the list. [...] They're the only things that really, really matter.
    Again, it's a force of habit, and the way that they're written in the Codex which makes it easier to read. The Space Marine Codex does this, presumably because there is a bigger emphasis on Troops than there used to be (or because Matt Ward can't write a Codex), but, all subsequent 5th Ed. Codecies are also Elites => Troops (including the Blood Angels Codex, written by Matt Terrible). So, yeah...

    Man that unit costs like five hundo points just in attached characters.
    Considering that both players have their own seperate army, rather than one army, this isn't an issue. If you're playing a 2x1500 point battle, 500 points in one unit doesn't really matter, it's pretty much an Apocolypse-style approach to points at that level.

    But that's where the fun is. It's like Apocalypse. The crazy stuff is balanced by the other crazy stuff.
    But Apocolypse isn't broken that badly. Not all Codecies synergise that well. The crazy stuff in 2v2 is rarely balanced by other crazy stuff.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2010-06-14 at 09:07 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashligh

    Well the new Fantasy rules (at least the rumors, which are not really rumors at this point) specifically lays out how allies work. What kind of relationship the armies have determines what benefits and negatives the armies have working together. Like if the armies are really friendly they can use either generals leadership, but they will cause panic in each other if either flees. If they don't really like each other they can't use LD from others, but they don't cause panic, but at the same time if you try to flee through an ally unit they are treated as dangerous or impassible.

    But those are some of the reasons I've never liked playing with more players. Things just never work out that well, for a variety of reasons. It is ok for special super large battles, but thats also why you only play those maybe once or twice a year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja Chocobo View Post
    I do agree though, that units with restrictions on transports, like Terminators, Meganobs, and Wraithguard should not be able to embark willy-nilly.
    So fortuned TH/SS termies are A-okay but Wraithguard in a Landraider are a serious party foul? It's your group, you can do whatever you want, but that seems much more needlessly arbitrary and convoluted than saying "everything is permissible" or "nothing is permissible."

    I'm with Cheesegear on this, codices are not balanced, and certain units in particular synergize way better than others-- Farseers and Sanguinary Priests for example. I for one still want my 2v2 games to be a test of skill and strategy more than a question of "whose codex has the murkiest wording to benefit my ally more than the other guy benefits his."

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    Troops /\ | |
    6x Ravenwing Bikers | Meltabombs, Meltagun, Assault Bike w/ Multimelta | ###
    6x Ravenwing Bikers | Meltabombs, Meltagun, Assault Bike w/ Multimelta | ###
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    | |
    Total | | ~990
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    Quote Originally Posted by EleventhHour View Post
    Just going to use this as an example to join in on this Army List business. Why bother typing it seperately at all? The forum has a wonderful built in Table Feature.
    ...But Wraith's list was pretty much okay.

    As a table though you can't copy-paste the table from Word or Notepad or similar, which makes it annoying, rather than helpful. I write my lists in Notepad because of letter alignment and tabbed spacing, then I paste it onto the Playground between [CODE][/CODE] tags.

    Although Winterwind makes nice tables.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashligh

    I think its kinda stupid for allies to benefit from each other's rules and perks, personally. Seriously, Yarrick and Grazkul using each other's benefits? That's... just dumb.


    Also, I'm not sure how to work the table thingy, so I'll just do my lists the old fashioned way...


    Speaking of lists, if I were to write up a DH list for ya'll to judge, should it be a "realistic" list based off the models I'll have within a reasonable time span, or a "wish" list with the units and models I'll have eventually?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Speaking of lists, if I were to write up a DH list for ya'll to judge, should it be a "realistic" list based off the models I'll have within a reasonable time span, or a "wish" list with the units and models I'll have eventually?
    The models you'll have eventually. If it turns out that they're bad choices, we can tell you so, now. And save you wasting money. It's what's so good about theory lists, you have a bunch of money in your pocket, instead of spending it all at once and coming back to the internet saying "Here's what I've got/can afford." and the internet replying "That's bad. You shouldn't have got that...".

    Theory Lists save people a lot of hurt. It's why the first few points of The Guide are; go to GW, don't buy anything, come back to us, then go back to GW.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashligh

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    True. Although I rarely have my list looked at by nobody.
    Well I was talking more about drafts and such, but oh well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    But it's unneccesary. If you keep everything 'clean', you have to read less lines, and it takes up less space on paper/screen so you don't have to read one word lines.
    It's neater, though, and easier to see everything in a unit at a glance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    But Apocolypse isn't broken that badly.
    This is a joke, yeah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tren View Post
    So fortuned TH/SS termies are A-okay but Wraithguard in a Landraider are a serious party foul? It's your group, you can do whatever you want, but that seems much more needlessly arbitrary and convoluted than saying "everything is permissible" or "nothing is permissible."
    I said "willy-nilly". Not "at all". Terminators in a Wave Serpent? I think not. Meganobs in a Valkyrie? No. Wraithguard in a Land Raider? Probably! A Battlewagon? I'd say so.
    If nothing in your army can affect anything in your ally's army why are you even playing 2v2?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja Chocobo View Post
    This is a joke, yeah?
    You said so yourself, "The crazy stuff [in Apocolypse] is balanced by the other crazy stuff."

    My emphasis there. If all armies are broken, then none are. The Incredibles taught me that.

    If nothing in your army can affect anything in your ally's army why are you even playing 2v2?
    why are you even playing 2v2?
    Exactly.
    Why do people play 2v2? I find it to be a waste of time. Why can't I just have 2 FO Charts and 3000 points to myself?
    I'll even use Daemon/Witch Hunters so it looks like I'm playing a separate army to my Space Marines.

    In my area, the only people who play 2v2 (it's more like 1v1v1v1) are <14 year olds who barely have 500 points each and need to combine armies if they want to play a decent game.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2010-06-15 at 06:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Why do people play 2v2? I find it to be a waste of time. Why can't I just have 2 FO Charts and 3000 points to myself?
    Because they find it fun. Some people just enjoy doing silly things that aren't quite the norm. The group I play with does 2v2s from time to time and it can nice to have 4 people around the same table without having a different turn structure. Also it's just nice to play cooperatively with someone. You're a team, there is another human being there you're coordinating with and that's enjoyable on a certain level, for me at least anyway.

    Heck, 2v2 is rather mundane as far as silly things we've done go. One of the guys in our group likes to make up custom missions, that are rarely well balanced and often have rules implications that just plain make no sense. We still have fun with it most of the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    Because they find it fun. [...] The group I play with does 2v2s from time to time and it can nice to have 4 people around the same table without having a different turn structure.
    Do you allow your army's' bonuses to be conferred on your allies' units? Because then it's not fun.

    I don't like playing 2v2. There was a tournament about 6 months ago that I went to that 2v2 (Allies did not benefit Allies). For me, it seemed like the fastest way to lose a friend that I had ever seen. It's like playing co-op games on the internet, except in person...Where you're supposed to be friends...There was lots of yelling that day.

    And the turn structure is different. You've got two people going at the same time. Trying to do different things; Hang on, I'm being shot at by two different units at the same time, hang on? What? No, shut up. The other guy is talking. No. Wait? Hang on, didn't you just...Oh, right. Fair enough. Wait. I'm not finished over here yet. ONE A G* DAMN TIME PLEASE!

    Similarly, there is another tournament soon, of 3v3, where the total armies add up to 1750. And only one FO Chart. Allies will not benefit Allies.
    Why? 6 players at one table is far too disorganized. It actually looks like fun, as it incorporates Planetstrike and Cities of Death matches over two days...But, seriously, having 2 other people on my team? I don't want to do that. In a competitive environment like a tournament, every single move I make will be second-guessed and frowned upon by my team mates, and I fully expect I would do the same to them...
    Yeah. Quick way to lose friends.

    I would much rather have 1750 points/1 FO Chart over three different codecies to myself. I would also get to take what I want, rather than get limited by my team-mate's selections.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2010-06-15 at 08:32 AM.
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  23. - Top - End - #1373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Do you allow your army's' bonuses to be conferred on your allies' units? Because then it's not fun.
    It's been inconsistent. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. More commonly it's something like "Well clearly they could use the markerlights since those are just obvious, but the Tau would never take orders". It usually tends to wind up more on the conservative side, without much rule crossing but we don't have a set policy. It really just depends on who is taking the lead for that particular game.

    I don't like playing 2v2. There was a tournament about 6 months ago that I went to that 2v2 (Allies did not benefit Allies). For me, it seemed like the fastest way to lose a friend that I had ever seen. It's like playing co-op games on the internet, except in person...Where you're supposed to be friends...There was lots of yelling that day.
    Well the games I play are casual. So I can't speak for a tournament 2v2 environment. However all the 2v2s in my group have been good spirited. Even the guy nobody really likes all that much is an agreeable teammate, well as agreeable as he gets anyway.

    And the turn structure is different. You've got two people going at the same time. Trying to do different things; Hang on, I'm being shot at by two different units at the same time, hang on? What? No, shut up. The other guy is talking. No. Wait? Hang on, didn't you just...Oh, right. Fair enough. Wait. I'm not finished over here yet. ONE A G* DAMN TIME PLEASE!
    This hasn't been my experience. Generally things stay pretty clear and people make a point of making sure only one player is interacting with a given opponent at a time. It's not like written rule or anything, I think players just have a basic sense of the fact that splitting attentions would slow things down.

    I can certainly see why you'd be sour on it if most MP matches you've been in has degraded into a hostile quagmire of arguing teammates and grouchy opponents.

    In a competitive environment like a tournament, every single move I make will be second-guessed and frowned upon by my team mates, and I fully expect I would do the same to them...
    Yeah. Quick way to lose friends.
    I guess that makes me glad I don't play in tournaments. I'd heard it changes the feel of the game, but I didn't really know it was that nasty.

    I would much rather have 1750 points/1 FO Chart over three different codecies to myself.
    I can see why, given what you've described of your experiences.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashligh

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Do you allow your army's' bonuses to be conferred on your allies' units? Because then it's not fun.
    I like how fun is objective now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I don't like playing 2v2. There was a tournament about 6 months ago that I went to that 2v2 (Allies did not benefit Allies). For me, it seemed like the fastest way to lose a friend that I had ever seen. It's like playing co-op games on the internet, except in person...Where you're supposed to be friends...There was lots of yelling that day.

    And the turn structure is different. You've got two people going at the same time. Trying to do different things; Hang on, I'm being shot at by two different units at the same time, hang on? What? No, shut up. The other guy is talking. No. Wait? Hang on, didn't you just...Oh, right. Fair enough. Wait. I'm not finished over here yet. ONE A G* DAMN TIME PLEASE!
    All this speaks more about the maturity of your players than the structure of the game. When I last played a 2v2 game I just has a short discussion with my friend at the start of the turn as to what movement and shooting went where and then we just did it. The opponents' turns took a bit longer but basically everything went off without a hitch.

    Co-op games on the internet are fun. Same with wargames in real life.
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  25. - Top - End - #1375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Moron View Post
    I guess that makes me glad I don't play in tournaments. I'd heard it changes the feel of the game, but I didn't really know it was that nasty.
    It doesn't. Not really. When you're playing on your own, nothing like that really happens. But, despite page 2 of the rulebook, the aim of a tournament is to win. If it wasn't, it would be called Casual Game Time Where Everyone Can Be Friends.
    I mean, you can have a good time as well as try to win. But, most people who go to tournaments, go to win (or at least do really well), with having fun being kind of a bonus.

    It's just that when playing on a team, your decisions and what you do, even including how you well/badly you roll, don't just affect you, but, they affect the other people on your team. It means that you can, in fact, place the blame for a loss (or anything else bad that happens) squarely on the actions of someone else. Because tournaments are competitive, and that's what they bring out in a lot of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja Chocobo View Post
    I like how fun is objective now.
    You like getting steam-rolled by the second turn? Winterwind in a 4000 point game, was tabled by Turn 3. 4000 points. Dead. In 2 Turns. I have a hard enough time doing that in Apocalypse. 4000 points is a lot. How is that not demoralising?
    ...Well, it would be for me. Maybe Winterwind has a different opinion, but, it didn't read that way.

    Co-op games on the internet are fun. Same with wargames in real life.
    We clearly don't play with the same people then.

    Still, 40K isn't designed for 'multi-player'. I'm not surprised that it has the massive potential to go wrong. Some people like breaking the game. I don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    Things just never work out that well, for a variety of reasons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tren View Post
    I for one still want my 2v2 games to be a test of skill and strategy more than a question of "whose codex has the murkiest wording to benefit my ally more than the other guy benefits his."
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2010-06-15 at 09:53 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    That wasn't possible in 2nd edition because the characters cap was 50%.

    There wasn't anything stopping you taking 1000 points of special characters, 500 points of tanks and 500 points of terminators though.
    I thought that some armies had different budgets for their unit types, and was convinced that at least one of them - Chaos, at the time - was allowed 75%. Since it's a dead system it's a dead matter anyway, so thanks for the correction

    And for those out there who aren't aware, 2nd Edition was the sort of game where spending 50% of your points on special characters - for more than one army - was likely to be a powerful list, which is what makes it so funny!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Cheesegear wants people to know How to Write an Army List.
    Good idea on the guide, Cheesegear, a little bit of uniformity never hurt anyone. Some of what you said, though, seemd to fall into pedantry or just your own personal preference rather than being strictly a 'good' thing.
    It doesn't really matter if I put Rangers before Guardians before Dire Avengers in my Eldar list, so long as all the TROOP choices are together, and preferably units of the same type are next to each other (Guardians/Guardians, etc). The list only has to be legible and easy to understand, not Dewey-Decimal Approved

    Quote Originally Posted by EleventhHour View Post
    Why bother typing it seperately at all? The forum has a wonderful built in Table Feature.
    1) Easier to copy/paste from Wordpad without the html.
    2) I don't know the html for a table.
    3) Quicker to type without the html.
    4) I was writing a quick list for speculation, and wasn't all that interested in getting it absolutely perfect.
    5) See above; lists only need to be legible, not smelted into golden tablets so that they may be handed down through the ages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    You like getting steam-rolled by the second turn? Winterwind in a 4000 point game, was tabled by Turn 3. 4000 points. Dead. In 2 Turns. I have a hard enough time doing that in Apocalypse. 4000 points is a lot. How is that not demoralising?
    ...Well, it would be for me. Maybe Winterwind has a different opinion, but, it didn't read that way.
    I would just like the record to show that it is entirely possible to play a game where you are annihilated in a few short turns, and yet still have tremendous amounts of fun.

    All you need is a sense of humour to tolerate some truly hysterical dice rolling, and/or the ability to appreciate a really, really good opponent

    Observation on the criticism of 2v2 games: If you're willing to play in a 2v2 game with bizarre allies and unlikely special characters, then you fully deserve everything that happens to you and shouldn't be taking it seriously
    Last edited by Wraith; 2010-06-15 at 11:03 AM.
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    For posting lists in a table format, I put it in Excel (or equivalent) and then save the file as a CSV. Open the CSV in notepad and do a find-replace and replace the , with | instead. Copy that and put {table] and the appropriate closing tag around it and its done. The first step is because the {table] uses the | to delineate between cells and the csv uses ,s instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Although Winterwind makes nice tables.
    Thanks!
    Though I am giving serious considerations to stopping doing that and switching to using your format nonetheless, because it makes it easier for people commenting on the list to pick out single entries to comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Exactly.
    Why do people play 2v2? I find it to be a waste of time. Why can't I just have 2 FO Charts and 3000 points to myself?
    I'll even use Daemon/Witch Hunters so it looks like I'm playing a separate army to my Space Marines.

    In my area, the only people who play 2v2 (it's more like 1v1v1v1) are <14 year olds who barely have 500 points each and need to combine armies if they want to play a decent game.
    Personally, until yesterday anyhow, I actually liked 2v2s quite a lot - my experience with them was pretty much the same as Mr.Moron's, that everyone was quite friendly, there was no constant criticizing of the ally's strategies, and the game actually flowed just as quickly due to two players rolling simultaneously to resolve the shooting or combat or whatever on two different sides of the table. Not even in tournaments, in fact, did this change - our shop has a 2v2 tournament once every month (alternating between 40k and WHFB), and not even there did the people seem to care for anything but having fun (in spite of the 50 first prize).

    And then there's the additional fun of varied forces cooperating with each other, of having elements on one's side that one would usually not have in one's army, and the spirit of camaraderie when going up together against a joint foe.

    But yes, yesterday's experience makes me rethink my stance on that quite a bit...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    You like getting steam-rolled by the second turn? Winterwind in a 4000 point game, was tabled by Turn 3. 4000 points. Dead. In 2 Turns. I have a hard enough time doing that in Apocalypse. 4000 points is a lot. How is that not demoralising?
    ...Well, it would be for me. Maybe Winterwind has a different opinion, but, it didn't read that way.
    When I said "tabled by turn 3" I actually meant "tabled during our opponent's 3rd turn", so three turns, but yeah. Demoralising as heck, especially when one managed to hardly kill anything on the enemy side. Double demoralizing, because by turn 3 our opponents stopped playing for real and started showing off ("Ooh, ooh, let me take this unit on with Ghazghull alone, I want to see how badly I can bash them all!"), and they could afford to do so.

    For a fair moment, I reflected upon actually going "Okay, in the next future, only Warhammer Fantasy for me". That moment of frustration passed, but that was decidedly the least fun Warhammer-related experience I've ever had.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I would just like the record to show that it is entirely possible to play a game where you are annihilated in a few short turns, and yet still have tremendous amounts of fun.

    All you need is a sense of humour to tolerate some truly hysterical dice rolling, and/or the ability to appreciate a really, really good opponent

    Observation on the criticism of 2v2 games: If you're willing to play in a 2v2 game with bizarre allies and unlikely special characters, then you fully deserve everything that happens to you and shouldn't be taking it seriously
    Well... while I basically agree with you (Chaos Gods know I really am not the guy who needs to win to have his fun, as anyone reading my Warhammer Fantasy battle reports in the thread next door can attest to), there are limits. Losing to some hysterical dice rolling is humorous; losing to a better opponent is honourable; but being completely steam-rolled by some rules loop-holes that make the enemy army exponentially stronger than it ever should be is just plainly unfair and frustrating. At least, from my point of view.
    Last edited by Winterwind; 2010-06-15 at 11:40 AM.
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  29. - Top - End - #1379
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    Myatar_Panwar's Avatar

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashligh

    Oddly enough, I had the opposite reaction when I played a fantasy game and thought "okay, only 40k for me". Fantasy just seems to rely on a few really powerful-holy-****-gamebreaking units which are neigh unstoppable unless you have some of your own. The few games I've played were literally un-winnable (unless extreme instances of luck were involved), and I've never had that problem with 40k.

    Also I really hope that GW will include a few pages for group play in the next rule book. Probably 25% of the games I play involve more than 2 people. And I am sure that I am not the only one.
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  30. - Top - End - #1380
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashligh

    Most official doubles tournaments say that one player controls both armies in each game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myatar_Panwar View Post
    Oddly enough, I had the opposite reaction when I played a fantasy game and thought "okay, only 40k for me". Fantasy just seems to rely on a few really powerful-holy-****-gamebreaking units which are neigh unstoppable unless you have some of your own. The few games I've played were literally un-winnable (unless extreme instances of luck were involved), and I've never had that problem with 40k.
    I've made and used fantasy lists like that, but if you're good at fantasy then it's pretty easy to neutralise a lost of "super units" by making sure your opponent never gets to kill more than a single one of your cheap regiments with them.

    The only guy my super unit reliant Beastmen army can beat is a Chaos player who insists on using up all his points on filling up his character slots with magic users so that he can somehow only afford one block of chaos warriors and two useless blocks of marauders, when one unit of marauder horsemen would have invalidated my super unit and let him beat me.
    Last edited by Closet_Skeleton; 2010-06-15 at 12:31 PM.
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