[3.5] How to deal with disparate tiers?

[Lord of Syntax]

In my party we have a Tier 1, (Wizard) a Tier 2, (Twinked out dragoon) and a Tier 3. (Binder)
How do I balance this party?

[Private-Prinny]

First off, Binder w/summoning vestige is tier 2, so it's not as bad as you think. If you need a way to deal with the wizard (and what DM doesn't), restricting how many scrolls and other spellbooks he can get his hands on will severely limit his spell selection.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

With access to online vestiges binder is considered tier 2 and a span of 2-3 tiers in a party is normal. As long as the wizard doesn't go too far into TO he won't outstrip everyone else by too much. Remember individual optimization trumps the tiers.

[Private-Prinny]

With access to online vestiges binder is considered tier 2 and a span of 2-3 tiers in a party is normal. As long as the wizard doesn't go too far into TO he won't outstrip everyone else by too much. Remember individual optimization trumps the tiers.

Bolded part needs extra emphasis. In one of my parties, 3 tier 1s and a tier 2 were all consistently outperformed by a tier 3.

[AslanCross]

I game across tiers all the time. My current party:

-Crusader 10
-Barbarian 1/Warblade 9
-Rogue 10
-Cleric 7/Paragnostic Apostle 3
-Psion 10

Frankly, it's not such a big issue unless some of the players are prone to powergaming.

[Endarire]

Be careful about limiting spell selection for a Wizard. As a Wizard lover myself, I feel more inclined to use 'broken' spells and spell combos if I'm effectively an INT-based Sorcerer whose spellbook can be destroyed or removed at any time.

In general, let the Wizard get the spells he wants if he pays for them. Clerics and Druids already know all their spells from every source.

About the tiers, see Tier System for Classes.

What's this dragoon's proposed build?

[Lord of Syntax]

Near pure Warblade with a barbarian dip for pounce. He has Leap Attack, Battle Jump. He is a Dragonborn (Wings) 1/2-minotaur Incarnate Warforged.

His sheet is online: http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/....php?cid=36072 (He got the wild cohort when there was a Druid in the party)

EDIT: the binder does not have the SM vestige

[JaronK]

In my party we have a Tier 1, (Wizard) a Tier 2, (Twinked out dragoon) and a Tier 3. (Binder)
How do I balance this party?

As others have said, first see what optimization levels the various party members are doing. If the Binder player is optimized and the Wizard isn't (and isn't going for big power spells) then you're probably fine. A two tier difference isn't the worst thing in the world anyway.

JaronK

[Lord of Syntax]

The binder is barely optimized at all, same with the wizard.
(The binder feels useless)
The game is at 6th level, FYI.
The binder has Improved Binding.

[JaronK]

Especially if the Binder is feeling useless, having his character optimize just a touch more ought to fix things right up. If he's not the sort of player who would do that, just throw him an item or two that will boost him a bit.

JaronK

[Vangor]

The most powerful are the greatest threats, and the BBEG, while not metagaming aware of the tier system, should become wary of whomever proves to be most capable in the party. In such a way, minions, especially the more intelligent such as those overseeing the completion of important tasks or undertaking tasks themselves or the right-hand of the BBEG, should be focused on the person to be feared.

To this, make sure the BBEG is scrying or has some objects or minions which allow him to to observe more tactical combat. Maybe a minion or two escapes and reports. Perhaps the power is obvious by the wizard's protections. For some reason, enemies who should be expected to communicate and coordinate should be expected to react to threats appropriately.

This does not mean try to assassinate the Wizard in the starting inn, because as said much of the difference in power is based on optimization which does include how a person plays the character. But, perhaps the archers spot the wizard and send hits his way first rather than the warblade up front.

Performing this way, the Wizard feels a threat, but you should find ways to counter his abilities and protections such the others do not feel worthless. As I have said before, power is relative. Players can optimize (I know yours are not, merely for example) all they want, but this does not mean they have a greater chance of overcoming fights, they are just fighting greater enemies.

[Tinydwarfman]

Binder is a funny case because it's not actually very good at low levels, probably more like tier 4. He'll power up soon though. Also note that binders are quite complicated and require experience players to use to their full potential. Have him read the Binder's Handbook at the very least.

[Lord of Syntax]

The binder dude is easily the most experienced player, he just has Stormwind really bad.

[JaronK]

If this guy is nerfing himself to prove he's such a great roleplayer, then it's entirely his fault really. You'll just have to power him up to fix it. Consider giving him rewards for roleplay so he can feel vindicated in that his great roleplay is the key to success... like have him suffer through something and get a free feat or other bonus as a result.

JaronK

[Doc Roc]

My normal answer is unhinge your jaw and spew forth the hounds of tindalos from your many angled maw.


YMMV.

[Lord of Syntax]

It's more that he just thinks that if you optimize, you can't roleplay as well.

[Pechvarry]

He must hate the dragoon guy.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

One problem is that your dragoon is definitely outside the reasonable level of play in a campaign without complete min-maxing.

He's exploiting the Half-Minotaur template (an over-powered--at lower levels, at least--template from an unofficial source) to stack on huge strength bonuses, and using Dragonborn (a race in and of itself, not a template) as a template (and a free one at that, as, since it's a race, it has no LA listed). I suspect he's using the ritual as justification, but becoming a Dragonborn overrides your previous racial traits...it doesn't stack. He's also got a vague amount of levels (says level 7, in a level 6 campaign, and his attack bonus matches level 6, but his sheet says Warblade 5/Barbarian 1/Warblade 2).

As I've never heard of an Incarnate Warforged before, I suspect shenanigans of a similar sort there. It may be a spell, ritual, or template that shouldn't be freely granted at character creation.

[Coidzor]

^: I think it's just a race from Magic of Incarnum.



The Hounds of Tindalos?

...And how on earth do you have a predominantly Warblade thingy as Tier 2 in your book?

[Kylarra]

As I've never heard of an Incarnate Warforged before, I suspect shenanigans of a similar sort there. It may be a spell, ritual, or template that shouldn't be freely granted at character creation.

He's probably using Incarnate Construct template to get a -2 LA on a +0 LA race.

[Ranos]

His use of dragonborn seems legal to me. It IS a template. Half minotaur may be awesome at lower levels as you say, but now that you've reached 6th level, it's merely very good. The LA negation thing is weird indeed, and yeah, incarnate warforged is probable. Your DM seems willing to accomodate for a high level of cheese. That's neither a good nor a bad thing.

Now, you have an exceptionally strong beatstick. Good for him. You ? You're a binder. While he can only hit things hard, you can be versatile. Go fulfill another role.

[Lord of Syntax]

He does 424 damage per round on average.

I am the DM.

[Kylarra]

Your DM seems willing to accomodate for a high level of cheese. That's neither a good nor a bad thing.

In context it's pretty bad when no one else is optimizing anywhere near that level of cheese.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@OP
Basically you have a miniature ubercharger in a game with non-ops. Of course they're going to feel left out in strictly combat situations where he can do his schtick.

Tips: limit his mobility.
Have noncombat encounters. Indoor encounters designed for medium creatures. Draw attention to his freakishness and have NPCs react accordingly.

That's just treating symptoms. Really you need to sit down and talk with your players about the expected party op levels.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

He does 424 damage per round on average.

I am the DM.

Yeah. This is why I'd recommend stomping on some of his cheese. He's not playing the same game the rest are...he'll end every encounter in one hit per enemy, and anything that willl pose a threat to him will curbstomp the rest of the party.

You could, of course, use ranged enemies, incorporeal enemies, and things that can't be killed through hit point damage, but that's going to be hard to keep up in the long run.

If it were me, I'd sit him down and talk to him about how his character is above and beyond the power level that allows me to balance campaigns, and see if he's willing to reign it in to reasonable levels that still make the game a challenge and allow his party to contribute. If he won't, then secretly give each monster an additional thousand hit points or so, or just damage reduction against his attacks. It won't make him useless, but it will put him where he should be for his level.

[tyckspoon]

One problem is that your dragoon is definitely outside the reasonable level of play in a campaign without complete min-maxing.

He's exploiting the Half-Minotaur template (an over-powered--at lower levels, at least--template from an unofficial source) to stack on huge strength bonuses, and using Dragonborn (a race in and of itself, not a template) as a template (and a free one at that, as, since it's a race, it has no LA listed). I suspect he's using the ritual as justification, but becoming a Dragonborn overrides your previous racial traits...it doesn't stack. He's also got a vague amount of levels (says level 7, in a level 6 campaign, and his attack bonus matches level 6, but his sheet says Warblade 5/Barbarian 1/Warblade 2).

As I've never heard of an Incarnate Warforged before, I suspect shenanigans of a similar sort there. It may be a spell, ritual, or template that shouldn't be freely granted at character creation.

Dragonborn is a weird sort of overlay on your original race; it retains your previous size and ability modifiers, which is what the build really cares about. Incarnate Construct is a Savage Species template that changes a construct into a living creature; it's notable for having a negative LA. In this case it's being used to pre-pay the LA from Half Minotaur.

I think the build is illegal, however- Half Minotaur is an inherited template, and cannot be applied to a construct. The Warforged doesn't qualify for it until it becomes an Incarnate Construct, which can't be done until after creation- the only given way for the template to be granted is for somebody to cast the Incarnate Construct spell on you. So.. there's no rules-legal way for a Warforged to become a Half-Minotaur.

Edit: Also unless he forgot to put something on his sheet his feats are screwed up- he doesn't qualify for Shock Trooper (no Improved Bull Rush.) And he wouldn't qualify for Leap Attack at 3; it would have to be his level 6 feat. And it's impossible to take Shock Trooper as a Flaw-granted feat. So.. yeah, go through his sheet and figure out WTH he's actually doing.

[Lord of Syntax]

He is 1/2 Minotaur, 1/2 Incarnate Warforged.

[JoshuaZ]

He does 424 damage per round on average.

For a 6th level party? Yeah that sounds pretty cheesy. I'd look very carefully at what exactly he's doing.

Also, agree with earlier comments about the binder's issues being the binder's own fault. If he is going to get weird ideas about how optimzing and roleplaying interact that's his problem (to make one obvious point: Binders are supposed to be smart. And they are supposed to be under constant threat from major churches and the like. Of course they'd figure out what vestiges are most effective for what they are doing in life and bind those accordingly. That's not hyperoptimizing. That's minimally sane roleplaying).

[Ranos]

I think the build is illegal, however- Half Minotaur is an inherited template, and cannot be applied to a construct. The Warforged doesn't qualify for it until it becomes an Incarnate Construct, which can't be done until after creation- the only given way for the template to be granted is for somebody to cast the Incarnate Construct spell on you. So.. there's no rules-legal way for a Warforged to become a Half-Minotaur.

Couldn't it be done with one of the rituals in savage species ?

You could, of course, use ranged enemies, incorporeal enemies, and things that can't be killed through hit point damage, but that's going to be hard to keep up in the long run.

The guy's a glass cannon. It really shouldn't be that hard to challenge him. At your ECL, flying, spellcasting, or at least smart ennemies should be the norm.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Dragonborn is a weird sort of overlay on your original race; it retains your previous size and ability modifiers, which is what the build really cares about. Incarnate Construct is a Savage Species template that changes a construct into a living creature; it's notable for having a negative LA. In this case it's being used to pre-pay the LA from Half Minotaur.

That would do it. Cheese in and of itself, of course...especially with a negative level adjustment from Incarnate Construct on a Warforged, which really doesn't make it lose that much of value compared to what you can gain.

I think the build is illegal, however- Half Minotaur is an inherited template, and cannot be applied to a construct. The Warforged doesn't qualify for it until it becomes an Incarnate Construct, which can't be done until after creation- the only given way for the template to be granted is for somebody to cast the Incarnate Construct spell on you. So.. there's no rules-legal way for a Warforged to become a Half-Minotaur.

True.

[Lord of Syntax]

He toned his guy down.

He now does 121 on a good roll.