How to pull a Xanatos

[vp21ct]

No really, How the hell would I do it without enraging the players. I'm certain that at least 90% of it is the villain pulling it off with style, and I have a few ideas for that, but there's still that 10% That I'm not quite sure about.

[Private-Prinny]

If the final gambit is the crux of the BBEG's plan, then you need to include a third option, otherwise it just gets boring. Other than that, style is very important, and it also needs to be believable. Satan from Spawn is a perfect example of a good level of Xanatos, but don't pull something as outrageous as Light Yagami.

[JaronK]

A good example of such a gambit is for him to pretend to have taken a somewhat valuable artifact and left clues that he has hidden it in a specific dungeon. In fact, the dungeon itself was created to house a different (more valuable) artifact, the one he actually wants. However, he cannot penetrate the defenses. He wants the players to chase after him to the dungeon and then fight their way through it, thus opening the way to the powerful artifact.

Just a random thought there.

JaronK

[Ranos]

It's a lesson I had to learn the hard way but players don't really care about what's been going on behind the scenes. They don't see all the careful work and planning that went into making that perfect plan. So when your villain is monologuing triumphantly, explaining how the PCs played into his hand every step of the way, most of the time... they just won't care.

With the right group however, having the BBEG and the PCs one-upping each other with more and more complicated plans can make for a pretty fun game. Forces them to think "What IS that damn villain planning this time ? How do we outdo him ?". Implicate them constantly, and maybe it'll take.


Oh, and remember that Xanatos gambits have a tendancy to fail. Players are impredictable like that, and no contingency plan can encompass every situation. But I guess that's half of the fun.

[Ormur]

Metagaming

There's nothing that says the DM can't do it too.

[vp21ct]

A good example of such a gambit is for him to pretend to have taken a somewhat valuable artifact and left clues that he has hidden it in a specific dungeon. In fact, the dungeon itself was created to house a different (more valuable) artifact, the one he actually wants. However, he cannot penetrate the defenses. He wants the players to chase after him to the dungeon and then fight their way through it, thus opening the way to the powerful artifact.

Just a random thought there.

JaronK

That... that's brilliant -begins taking notes-

go on...

[Yukitsu]

In a real game where you are the DM? Take little details of little consequince that the players did earlier. Weave those bits into being all part of their master plan. Have them explain how everything they did was for your ultimate goal retroactive to them doing it.

For example, players steal mcguffin, hand it to old man. Old man turns out to be evil. Players suspicious of old man and kill him? Turns out that man was a guardian who knew the only secret way to kill the mastermind. Add extra bits between getting and end and make it seem like they were all part of the plan.

In short, the best way to make someone seem omnicient is to do it in hindsight.

As a player? I usually drew lots of attention to myself, and when my enemies revealed themselves, I either picked off their leadership, or led them against one another, or tricked them into becoming my allies, or tricked them into tricking other people into becoming my allies. But then again, I'm better at xanatos speed chess, and at getting out of a pileup.

[Trekkin]

Depending on how violent your PCs are (usually very), you can always rely on pure collateral damage. Throw a string of corrupt magistrates and the like at them, watch as they spatter the cielings with the blood of the guilty, then have the BBEG point out:

A. He was behind every tearful peasant tipping the PCs off to said corruption
B. The PCs have laid waste to the existing political structure, and in the anarchy they've left in their wake there have arisen a healthy population of avengers looking for the people who reduced their society to chaos.

"Yes, you purified the land in your...drastic way. And in the process, you've handed me the perfect army. All I need do is point, say whatever do-gooder I like has been crusading, and the land kills its own paragons of justice and virtue one by one until there's no one left to oppose me. Of more immediate practicality, right now we've got a small army out there incensed at a group of meddlesome anarchists storming castles and killing their owners, and here you are..."

[vp21ct]

OOooo... just had a thought.

Since I'm going with Eberron Setting, That horrible Parody of a warforged titan that They tore apart after it stepped out of the unfinished Creation forge that they just distroyed.

It was merely a prototype and he now knows all the bugs that need to be worked out. The Creation forge, Obviously it was far too easy to destroy, and now that he knows why, he can build a COMPLETE one that will be far tougher.

And that doesn't even count posibilities for him to somehow escape/not-even-be-there and have the players be at the complete opposite position of his real plans. Polymorphed Warforged, Changelings, Illusion Spells. Deathtraps that the players were meant to get through so that they would then be disarmed, Ancient Guadrians to Terrible Treasures that inexplicably were also guarding some gate he needed to access. Ah man, the possibilities are begining to open to me.

I really would rather have his Gambit's and Roulettes planned BEFORE the players destroy everything, that way it seems alot more plausable, and they can't bitch at me that he's becoming a Villain Sue.

[Trekkin]

Just remember: PCs destroy everything. So what would a villain need destroyed?

[Grifthin]

Watch Code Geass, not so much a Xanatos Gambit as a Xanatos pile-up. Take notes, Provoke agony from players brains.

[Alvrick]

Just remember: PCs destroy everything. So what would a villain need destroyed?

a country or two, I suppose. Let's say a BBEG wants that elven country destroyed, and maybe even the human one next to it. he sparks tensions between the humans and the elves, causing them to go to war. the human nation needs help to assault the elven forests, and the BBEG somehow plants the idea in the player's heads to get the help of the giants, or orcs,or some such being. after having razed the elven forest, the BBEG reveals to the players that he forced all this, and has been subtly manipulating the other rulers in the surrounding kingdoms, and now they believe that this human and savage humanoid alliance will proceed to wipe them out, so they gather together and start assaulting this one small country who allied itself with savage humanoids. bam. instant campaign, and jerkass villain to fight

[Lord Raziere]

Just remember: PCs destroy everything. So what would a villain need destroyed?

something very good aligned and very powerful....

so a xanatos gambit to somehow get PCs to kill some very good being? maybe using illusions?

[quiet1mi]

Think like the blood war...

A Clever Demon disguised as a Devil disguised priest recruiting the party to kill another Devil...

By the way, he plans on botching his disguise self and leave clues to his identity as a devil when giving the reward of one precious stone to the party... All the party will see is another devil to follow to kill. In addition, the "clues" allowed the party to use the Scry and Die tactic on the Devil...

Little do they know, that is all of the Demon's plan...

Xantos Gambits should rely on people doing X, thinking X... everyone knows that quest givers can sometimes be the true monster, but when taken into account... lets just say, you kill two devils with one precious stone...

[vp21ct]

Think about the blood war...

A Clever Demon disguised as a disguised priest recruiting paladins to kill a Devil...

who incidentally is actually disguised as the Demon and working with drow who are disguised as elves who are setting up to incite a war between Orcs and Hobgoblins while both parties are fully aware of it and plan to use it as justification to attack the drow -deep breath- The matron of whom is fully aware of the Priest's real identity and intends to guide the players into killing them.

How's that for a Thirty Xanatos Pileup

[quiet1mi]

Do not forget that despite what their character sheets say... most players are not LAWFUL GOOD... or even good....

have there be situations where the big bad plays on their vices like greed, wrath, or even lust...

The group does not have to kill or destroy anything good... they could try to momentarily remove it from the big bad's path...

The Key is to have the initial quest be something that they cannot resist, like slaying a devil or an orc.

Having the PCs kill all the orcs in a mine could lead to escalation, the orcs retaliate... The arms merchant profits...

"Yes, you purified the land in your...drastic way. And in the process, you've handed me the perfect army. All I need do is point, say whatever do-gooder I like has been crusading, and the land kills its own paragons of justice and virtue one by one until there's no one left to oppose me. Of more immediate practicality, right now we've got a small army out there incensed at a group of meddlesome anarchists storming castles and killing their owners, and here you are..."

By the way do you mind if I sig that?

[Trekkin]

I would be honored, quiet1mi.

[PhoenixRivers]

The key is using the player's actions against them. Perhaps the PC's foil an attack by one of the BBEG's hired mercenary squads. The BBEG, needing to send a message to his/her minions about reliability and providing services that they were paid for, enacts a 3 part plan.

Part 1) Contact the mercenaries again (through an agent). Blather about "one more chance, failure will not be tolerated again. Half the payment is upfront this time. The other half is on success." They get to repeat their plan, an assault. They're instructed that those that foiled them will be taken out of the picture (they will be).

Part 2) BBEG sends an agent to the PC's. Evidently a large amount of gold has been stolen from the agent's employer, and it's been linked to the group that attempted to make the attack earlier. The agent has uncovered the location, via hired divinations, and wishes the party enter the enemy's fortress and retrieve it.

Part 3) BBEG uses a 2nd mercenary service, hired to annihilate the original's raiding party, AFTER it carries out its mission.

The playout: While the bulk of the mercenary squad is out, the PC's assault the hideout, recovering the PAYMENTS that the BBEG made, as well as other treasure. Per the agreement, the BBEG gets his money back, the party gets the remainder of the loot, making it a profitable adventure killing "Team Bad", and the villain accomplishes his original goal in the attack.

In addition: The BBEG recovers his payment for the primary mission, the half payment for the followup mission, annihilates the mercenaries who failed him, and obtains a positive working relationship with a more successful group (the PC's) for FREE. He also earns brownie points for ridding the countryside of "evil". Total end cost? The cost of hiring the second mercenary squad (with the money that the original mercs got for the botched mission).

It turns 1 failed mission into a recruiting exercise, positive PR, accomplishing the goals of the original failed mission, and a very solid message... For no additional cost. (in other words, when the PC's foiled the attack, they set in motion something that made the BBEG stronger.)

I love this particular gambit. I've used it on 2 different PC groups. Both fell for it, though one got clues (captured someone at the merc base).

[Trekkin]

I would go further and say that to suspend disbelief, use the PC's likely actions against them. Xanatos Gambits frequently leave the players depressed at their inescapability, and they start poking holes in them; "there was no way he could have known that". Batman Gambits turn the players' instincts against them, and their cry becomes "there's no way we could have known not to do that"...at which point you point out that yes, they could have and did, if they'd stemmed the bloodlust just a bit.

In short, a possibility for failure, especially an obvious one, makes your players kick themselves a lot harder for making the plan work. The best plot rails are, after all, the ones the PCs lay down for themselves.

[vp21ct]

So, basically, the Villain does what the DM is supposed to do, but twists it into their favor, and aren't as omnipotent nor omnicient as the DM is (theoretically).

OOOOooooo this could be fun.

Now there only remains one piece to the Xanatos puzzle left. How does he just keep getting away, without the heroes feeling like they didn't really beat him (wich they didn't, but they don't know that -evil laugh-)

[Cybren]

don't set anything in stone, and let previous events build up to larger ones

[Kurald Galain]

Recommended reading material: Amber Diceless Roleplaying (and also, the series of novels by Roger Zelazny on which it was based). The entire setting is a Thirty Xanatos Pileup, and the RPG offers good suggestions in how to have your NPCs pull one off.

[aberratio ictus]

As a player? I usually drew lots of attention to myself, and when my enemies revealed themselves, I either picked off their leadership, or led them against one another, or tricked them into becoming my allies, or tricked them into tricking other people into becoming my allies. But then again, I'm better at xanatos speed chess, and at getting out of a pileup.

Could you please tell me how exactly you pull that off without massive DM support? I'd be very interested.

[druid91]

I also would like to hear tips on how to extricate yourself from a pileup, though being able to do xanatos speed chess as a player would be a good thing to know.

[Zeta Kai]

A Xanatos Gambit is relatively easy to set up; here's what you need:

1. A villain with ambition, arrogance, wits, & a flair for the dramatic.
2. A plan to do Wicked Thing X.
3. A campaign plot that makes Wicked Thing X look like Good Thing Y to the players.
4. The willingness to turn every event in the campaign into "just another part of the plan."

The more that Good Thing Y differs from Wicked Thing X, the better. The more that Wicked Thing X looks like Good Thing Y up until the Big Reveal, the better still. And the more elements of the campaign that you can integrate into the villain's plan, the best.

Also, save that Big Reveal for the very end of the campaign. Hold it for as long as possible, with no hint of what's actually going on. Even if the villain is already dead, the plan can be immortal.

[Abd al-Azrad]

One thing of note I'd like to add is, unless you have extremely cooperative players, the Big Reveal probably is done best through the PCs research or interrogation of an evil minion, NOT through the villain's monologue. Monologuing works great in film and fiction because you can control the heroes' actions and really allow the audience to feel their shame and frustration... but in the game, your players will hate to be condescended to by the villain, and probably just ignore/attack him.

[BRC]

My advice: Cheat.

Don't detail the BBEG's main plan, merely account for the PC's to succeed. Then, after the PC's succeed, look at how they did so, and work that into the BBEG's plan all along!

Then describe this with a straight face.

[KillianHawkeye]

Now there only remains one piece to the Xanatos puzzle left. How does he just keep getting away, without the heroes feeling like they didn't really beat him (wich they didn't, but they don't know that -evil laugh-)

Xanatos always gets away because the original Xanatos was a recurring Disney villain from a Saturday morning cartoon show. Really, what else was he going to do? He has to show up in the next episode, after all.

[SolkaTruesilver]

A good Xanatos gambit is a situation where the villain wins regardless of the outcome.

Remember this: watever the choice the PCs will take, the villain is da winner. That's a good planner.

If you simply anticipate the player's reaction and behavior, that's a Batman Gambit, not a Xanato Gambit.

[Person_Man]

I'm with Trekkin on this - I try to avoid placing my PCs in no-win situations, because it makes them feel cheated. In most cases, the plot tree should have certain choices that they can make that lead to success, and certain choices that lead to failure, and once they get to point X they should learn the importance of the choices (Gee, we really should have investigated that shapeshifter before accepting a quest from him).

I would also say that complex plot lines almost never come to fruition in my group. The PCs are just too good at coming up with unpredictable choices and wrecking things (or forgetting they ever existed). Any Gambit that requires more then 2 game sessions to come to fruition just doesn't happen.