Minion cap

[x-Anarion-x]

When I look at command undead i see the cap is the HD of the caster. When I look at animate dead i see the cap is 4x the caster HD. When you add the bonus of desecration the cap becomes 8 times the level of the caster? now what is it? Is it like i can command my hd in undead hd, and then also commander 4x my hd of animated hd undead? oh and then there is also this rebuking and all...

help!

*yes i am still working on my necromancer and i want to figure out what my limits are before I start the campaign*

Thanks in advance,
Anarion

[x-Anarion-x]

And do undeadmastery and corpsecrafter stack?

[Yorrin]

I'm AFB, but as I recall it's just 4x CL. If you're in a desecrated area it's twice that, but if you leave you lose your extra undead. Also- look into Rod of Undead Mastery for another, more stable doubling (and remember that two doublings equal a tripling, as always).

[Friend Computer]

The two caps are seperate.
You get a cap to how many undead HD you can control through the Create Undead spell.
You get another cap to how many undead HD you can control through the Animate Dead spell.
You get a further cap to how many undead HD you can control through the rebuke undead ability.

[Il_Vec]

So does that mean that you can create more undead than the animate dead spell lets you control, then use rebuke to gain control of them?

[Beorn080]

The answer to your problem is Wights. Wights make more wights, who are under their control. Thus, if you start with commanding three wights, and they each make three more, who then make three more, you now have 39 wights, under your control via the wights you control.

[Yora]

So does that mean that you can create more undead than the animate dead spell lets you control, then use rebuke to gain control of them?

Yes, that works.

[Il_Vec]

My necropolitan warlock ur-priest just got an evilgasm.

[OldTrees]

the Desecrate spell
the Corpsecrafter feat
the Enhance Undead wizard alternate class feature
and the Undead Mastery dread necromancer class feature
stack hp but not enhancement bonuses.

End Result: +4 enhancement bonus to Str & Dex, +8hp/HD

[Ashiel]

The answer to your problem is Wights. Wights make more wights, who are under their control. Thus, if you start with commanding three wights, and they each make three more, who then make three more, you now have 39 wights, under your control via the wights you control.

I prefer Shadows actually. If you're a 6th level cleric, you can command basic shadows. They are incorporeal undead so they have a sick-ass ton of immunities; and are quite literally invulnerable to creatures who aren't sporting some nice magic abilities or magical weapons. When they reduce a creature to 0 strength, it dies and becomes a shadow under your control (due to you controlling the controller).

This means you can have an bunch of incorporeal undead - with no real limit - following you around an doing your bidding. They re-enforce your skeletons and zombies exceptionally well. They're completely useless against anything that's immune to strength damage or negative energy though.

However, you could also keep an Allip or two around for more fun. They drain wisdom and have a nice aura that messes with people. They're 4HD though, so you need to be 8th level to control one.

Also, don't forget that incorporeal creatures can exist inside of objects. It's entirely possible to have your undead take cover 5ft underground or inside a wall, and thus be virtually un-attackable; while still being able to attack outside of the wall with a 50% miss chance (since they can't see their targets).

[Beorn080]

Shadows are nice, but lack the ability to do grunt labor. Still, a mix of shadows and wights would work nicely. A self perpetuating force of shadows and wights, marching across the country side, assimilating everything in its path, anything killed but not turned into one made into something snazzy. I'm not sure how you could stop that.

[Ashiel]

Shadows are nice, but lack the ability to do grunt labor. Still, a mix of shadows and wights would work nicely. A self perpetuating force of shadows and wights, marching across the country side, assimilating everything in its path, anything killed but not turned into one made into something snazzy. I'm not sure how you could stop that.

I will agree with this entirely. For a RPG, manual labor capability > unstoppable army of death. Really, it allows you to do fun stuff like build castles, temples, villages, and the like.

This Post Right Here illustrates some of the awesomeness that is do-able with minions.

[Rin_Hunter]

*Ahem*

Animate Dead lets you animate twice your caster level worth of HD with a single casting. Desecrate doubles this.

You have an Animate pool that is added to when you use Animate Dead. This equals 4 times your caster level worth of HD. If you are a Dread Necromancer that is at least level 8, you have 4 plus your charisma modifier multiplied by your caster level. If you use Fell Animate, the zombies raised are controlled under this, I believe.

You may have a Rebuking pool depending on your class. You can Command undead using Rebuke attempts. Your maximum number of undead in the Rebuking pool is your effective level for turning undead. The Rebuking pool and Animate pool are seperate, and so are any undead you command using the spell Command Undead.

Create Undead and Create Greater Undead can create twice your level of undead in a single casting, but the spell doesn't put them under your control automatically. Desecrate doubles this creation amount.

So...

Animate Dead: 2x create, 4x control
Create Undead / Create Greater Undead: 2x create, 0 control
Rebuking: 1x control

Undead Mastery and Corpsecrafter do not stack for the Strength bonuses as they are both enhancement bonuses, but the Hp bump stacks since they are unnamed. Desecrate also adds +1 Hp (or +2 with an altar) on top of this since the bonus is unnamed too.

And thus concludes my Arcane Thesis on Animate Dead. Hope this helps.

[Il_Vec]

Thank you, Rin!
I was about to ask someone if they had the books in hand to summarize and clarify that.

And remember that your School Focus will not add to any of those caps, nor any effects that raise your spells DCs, but effects that grant you "virtual caster levels", like Practiced Spellcaster, do.

[JeminiZero]

Look up the Animate Dread Warrior spell. It has no minion caps so you can command as many of these that you can animate. Only problem is that it has an XP cost with each casting.

There are of course ways to mitigate this cost:
-Dweomerkeeper supernatural spell. Cast any spell as a supernatural ability which ignores costly components. Easily one of the most broken ability in the game.
-Make yourself undead and spellstitch Animate Dread Warrior onto yourself so you can cast it for free, and you can build up a substantial army.

[Mewtarthio]

My necropolitan warlock ur-priest just got an evilgasm.

Bear in mind, though, that if your enemies happen to kill a shadow or wight higher up in the chain, you could potentially lose control of a lot of your army. You're a necropolitan, so you're probably safe from undead running amok and attacking you personally, but you never know when their unpredictable behavior will jeopardize your long-term plans.

Unless, of course, you're the "Spread Chaos and Corruption!" type of necromancer, in which case you'll probably think this is awesome.

[Irreverent Fool]

Remember the multiplying rules.

It's been argued that animate dead states that you automatically control all undead created with your most recent casting and that this can allow you to exceed your HD cap. Whether you can convince your DM of this is up to you.

On the topic of the self-perpetuating force, just make sure you keep the 'head commanders' close to yourself or otherwise safe, as the loss of one of your main commanders could lead to a domino-effect loss of control in a very large force.

obnoxious
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[Beorn080]

If you get high enough level, even killing your higher up wights won't be a problem if you have control undead. Three castings, assuming the three a tier, and you reclaim control of all the undead under them.

Also, as intelligent undead, those you convert first will probably gain class levels. If all your wights right below you have a couple levels of clerics, possibly enough to command wights on their own, suddenly it's a lot harder to drop them. Couple of ICW, maybe a wand of ICW for those farther down, Hold Person. Of course, if you want the power of rock, bard would be a good choice. Some of the musical instruments would work nicely with creatures that don't need to stop playing for food, drink, or sleep.

[FMArthur]

Though I think leadership decapitation is a wonderful and fun counter to this strategy, if you were serious about doing it, you really would command every wight to command its wights to obey your commands to make sure it doesn't work. Well, they might be able to disobey their commanders if they were dead.

[PhoenixRivers]

The answer to your problem is Wights. Wights make more wights, who are under their control. Thus, if you start with commanding three wights, and they each make three more, who then make three more, you now have 39 wights, under your control via the wights you control.

However, if the chain is broken, they're uncontrolled.

For example, let's call your wights 1, 2, and 3.
Call their offspring a, b, and c
call their offspring x, y, and z

So 1 controls 1a, 1b, and 1c.
1a controls 1ax, 1ay, and 1az.

If 1a is killed, then 1ax, 1ay, and 1az are uncontrolled.

If 1 is killed, then 1ax, 1ay, 1az, 1bx, 1by, 1bz, 1cx, 1cy, and 1cz are uncontrolled.

It's very unstable.

[Beorn080]

I answered that. A couple of scrolls of control undead, chained if possible, or cast it by yourself. Or as the gentleman above said as well, first order new wights get is obey the human.

[Endarire]

Remember, spells only check conditions at cast time. You can desecrate an area, use a Rod of Undead Mastery, and cast animate dead and none of your minions will suddenly disappear unless you exceeded the cap.

[PhoenixRivers]

I answered that. A couple of scrolls of control undead, chained if possible, or cast it by yourself. Or as the gentleman above said as well, first order new wights get is obey the human.

The problem is that undead whose masters die become uncontrolled. That means they are no longer beholden to the order.

That tactic works for simulacrum abuse. Not for this.

[Beorn080]

Yes, the next three down would become uncontrolled, but any those three convert would be controlled by those three. Thus, if one dies, leaving A,B,C orphaned, any wights under A,B,C, would still be under their control. Thus, you just have to use control undead on A,B,C to reestablish your command of any under them. Or command them, or convince them that fighting the rest of your army is a waste of time and they should join up again anyway. Pretty much any of the tactics you would use to control them in the first place.

[PhoenixRivers]

Yes, the next three down would become uncontrolled, but any those three convert would be controlled by those three. Thus, if one dies, leaving A,B,C orphaned, any wights under A,B,C, would still be under their control. Thus, you just have to use control undead on A,B,C to reestablish your command of any under them. Or command them, or convince them that fighting the rest of your army is a waste of time and they should join up again anyway. Pretty much any of the tactics you would use to control them in the first place.

This relies on:

1) Finding them
2) Them having any desire to reason with you
3) Them having any intent to combat your army

They could be just as content attacking you, or leaving to go elsewhere.

That's not even getting into immediate ramifications. You have your wights go pillage some town, and 9 get killed, including 3 controllers. 1/3 of your army leaves your control in the middle of the fight. Perhaps more, if unlucky.

[Irreverent Fool]

Yes, the next three down would become uncontrolled, but any those three convert would be controlled by those three. Thus, if one dies, leaving A,B,C orphaned, any wights under A,B,C, would still be under their control. Thus, you just have to use control undead on A,B,C to reestablish your command of any under them. Or command them, or convince them that fighting the rest of your army is a waste of time and they should join up again anyway. Pretty much any of the tactics you would use to control them in the first place.

They might just willingly work for you, as well, being intelligent undead.

obnoxious
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[PhoenixRivers]

They might just willingly work for you, as well, being intelligent undead.

obnoxious
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Intelligent undead with a hatred for all living things and a chaotic attitude.

They're not poster children for employee of the month.

[Munchkin-Masher]

Remember to get that rod that doubles the amount of undead you can control, If used with a Dread Necromancer this allows for laughable amounts of undead.

It's in Libris Mortis (I think, It might be Heroes of Horror).