Kingdoms of Kalamar

[Yora]

What can you tell me about this setting?

I've heard many times that it is supposed to be really good. But I can't seem to find anything about the setting online. All you get is the product description from the backcover that doesn't say much except "we're super realistic!"

So, what's that world about and what makes it different from generic fantasy world #81?

[KillianHawkeye]

Isn't that the setting that has the dreaded Aquatic Tarrasque??

EDIT: Sorry for not having any useful information.

[hamlet]

Can't have looked very hard online for info if you missed the very active publisher's website just loaded with info and forums full of active and devoted gamers who love the setting.

You can go here for basic info on products and upcoming stuff: http://www.kenzerco.com

I recommend a visit to the forums. There's also a PDF copy of the campaign setting and Atlas available, fully compatible with D&D 4.0.

For more info, including a basic "current state" of the setting, go here: http://www.kenzerco.com/Orpg/kalamar/nhighlights.php

I highly recommend the setting.

[Yora]

But seriously, these are the highlights?

1. A logical, realistic topography. Deserts, mountains, rivers, lakes and forest are all where they belong.

Read: "It's very detailed!"
Never noticed that to be a problem of other settings.

2. A setting driven by the actions of ordinary men. Thus even a low-level PC can have a profound effect on the world and shape the history with his actions.

Okay, so it's a low-level setting, but it's not as if that's something special.

3. The wide variety of races have an extensively detailed history and background, starting from their original migration to the main continent and continuing through the present year. This makes character background easy and interesting to create.

Read: "It's very detailed!"

4. The political entities have a similarly detailed background history.Each governmental body is fully described with their history of war and peace. Thus it is easy to work large military and political conflicts into your campaign.

Read: "It's very detailed!"

5. The world of Tellene contains every type of terrain or obstacle you could desire, and thus a wide variety of locations in which to base your campaign.

Read: "It's very detailed!"

6. The setting is neither under-populated nor over-populated. Monsters and fantastical creatures exist, but they are not so numerous that they begin tripping over each other.

Read: "We took great care with details!"

7. Nothing happens without a logical reason. The explanation is never "that's just the way it is," or "it's magic - it doesn't have to make sense."

Never have seen any setting that does or in which this would have been a problem. But "it's very detailed!"

8. The Kingdoms of Kalamar is an extensively supported campaign setting. Currently, we have the Campaign Setting...

Like virtually every other commercially published setting.

9. The book contains a large, full color map and hex overlay to accurately measure distance and travel time.

See #8.

10. Kalamar is an official Dungeons and Dragons product, not d20, and therefore is official third edition material, like D&D product from Wizards of the Coast. As well as being edited and reviewed by Kenzer and Company staff, all art and text is also reviewed by WotC in several stages to ensure compatibility.

So what? They think this means it's high quality?

And it's like that with every description they ever give about their setting.
http://www.kenzerco.com/index.php?cPath=25_28
http://flamesrising.rpgnow.com/produ...ducts_id=58027

And here some summaries and reviews:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdoms_of_Kalamar
http://dnd.wikia.com/wiki/Kingdoms_of_Kalamar
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9533.phtml
http://www.rpgnews.com/rpg-news/king...paign-setting/
http://notagrog.blogspot.com/2010/02...f-kalamar.html

Nothing that tells us anything what the setting is about. Just that it's very good quality and very detailed.

[Calmar]

Do you seek arguments why it might be a bad setting?

[Cuaqchi]

It is actually really hard to explain the world. The best way would probably be to say that the world wants to kill you; multi-templated bad guys, cheap knock-off magic items, and political intrigue to levels that anyone not interested in the more Machevellian aspects of society would find nauseating.

I am actually playing in a Kalamar game elsewhere on the interwebs and the one thing we have learned is that allies are only those who do not outwardly wish for you to die...

[Yora]

No, I want to know why people think it's a great setting and if I should look into it.

But the more descriptions and reviews I can find, it increasingly seems like it's a very detailed description of six very generic human kingdoms.
Still, if someone who likes the setting would could tell me what things make it great and interesting, I really would like to hear about it.

[FishAreWet]

Honestly I've read the Player's Guide and thought it was intensely boring. My least favorite 3.5 setting I've ever read. Just nothing there to interest me.

[hamlet]

But seriously, these are the highlights?

Read: "It's very detailed!"
Never noticed that to be a problem of other settings.

Okay, so it's a low-level setting, but it's not as if that's something special.

Read: "It's very detailed!"

Read: "It's very detailed!"

Read: "It's very detailed!"

Read: "We took great care with details!"

So, you read only the very first page and called it done? Did you miss the links below that actually start providing setting information?

Yes, sensible detail is, in fact, a major draw unlike Forgotten Realms orgy of nonsensicle and oft conflicting madness. Or did we miss the glacier sitting in the middle of a desert?

Never have seen any setting that does or in which this would have been a problem. But "it's very detailed!"

I must assume you are joking. Again, I direct you to the Realms and pretty much every world shattering event that was vomited forth upon it.

Like virtually every other commercially published setting.

Or not. There are a great many published settings (the Realms, Eberron, Greyhawk at times) that look as if they were mapped with a third grader's understanding of geography and cartography. Kalamar actually makes sense from that perspective.

See #8.

You might actually want to look at the Atlas before you say that. It is an intensly beautiful book.

So what? They think this means it's high quality?

No, that was specifically inserted during the absurd glut of D20 products of . . . questionable quality, and during the fad where "official D&D product" carried a lot of weight. More than it shoudl have. It was intended as a draw for 3.x fans.

And here some summaries and reviews:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdoms_of_Kalamar
http://dnd.wikia.com/wiki/Kingdoms_of_Kalamar
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9533.phtml
http://www.rpgnews.com/rpg-news/king...paign-setting/
http://notagrog.blogspot.com/2010/02...f-kalamar.html

Nothing that tells us anything what the setting is about. Just that it's very good quality and very detailed.

Don't quote my own review at me. I know what I've said.



Before you get all twisty about it, go back to the links I provided and do more than a cursory glance. You asked the question, I provided you with the location of the information. Now it's upon you to actually read it. There is even a multi-page, freely available preview of the setting books available on the website. I recommend that you read it to get a sense of what the book is actually like.


If you are looking for a brief description of what gaming in Kalamar is like, then I can only answer you this way: it is only like how you make it. Kalamar is, by design, a seeming real world rather than a detailed game world. THAT, is what it is like. There is space for exploration campaigns, political campaigns, straight dungeon delving campaigns, religious campaigns, and any mixture of them that you see fit.

The bit where you seem to think they're just saying "it's a low level campaign" is incorrect. They're saying that there is a decided lack of Drizzles, Elminsters, Khelben Blackstaffs, Mordenkainens, and omnipresent uber-magic that makes any contribution PC's might make an exercise in fridge logic or pointlessness. In essence, the campaign setting is not about the other people or places in the world, it's about the PC's.

That is what Kalamar is like to me. Now go out and do you the research you need to do.

[hamlet]

It is actually really hard to explain the world. The best way would probably be to say that the world wants to kill you; multi-templated bad guys, cheap knock-off magic items, and political intrigue to levels that anyone not interested in the more Machevellian aspects of society would find nauseating.

I am actually playing in a Kalamar game elsewhere on the interwebs and the one thing we have learned is that allies are only those who do not outwardly wish for you to die...

Again, a matter of what kind of campaign the DM is running. The world is largely what the DM and the players make of it.

[Armoury99]

I've only glanced over the main book, but I remember that the way it describes the various cults of the gods was very nice. Much more detailed than normal (vestments, holidays, relationships, rites and sacrifices etc). It was so good that it became our standard layout in other games/homebrew settings.

Plus, there were hobgoblins and half-hobgoblins.

[Cuaqchi]

Ah, yes the Krangi... Haven't run into them this time round. Instead we have to deal with a glut of kobolds immortal lycanthropes...

[InkEyes]

Would it be stupid of me to ask for a few sentences on what sets Kingdoms of Kalamar apart from Greyhawk or The Forgotten Realms?

I already know a respectable amount about those campaign settings, so, say I had a sudden craving for some high fantasy fun... what should motivate me to "research" this campaign setting over similar ones I already know about? Basically, I just want to know why I should care about the setting. Hostilely linking giant blocks of text is not only intimidating, but discouraging to someone like me who's just mildly curious about the Kingdoms of Kalamar.

[Yora]

That's eaxactly my question.

But I never really got what's special about Greyhawk either.

People say Forgotten Realms is generic, but I know the setting well enough that I would summarize it as "Evil churches and corrupt trade organizations fight each other for control over hundreds of small city states, while good aligned adventurerers try to stop them from exploiting the common people with the help of networks of powerful archmages."
I agree it's not as great as the premises of Planescape, Eberron, Dark Sun, and Ravenloft, but if I want high fantasy, I at least know what the Realms are about and what PCs are expected to do once they gain higher levels.
With Greyhawk and Kalamar, I have no idea.

[Cuaqchi]

As has been said the world is not only very detailed but also consistant, something none of the other worlds seem to be able to do. Certain aspects of the world and the information actually come across as anthropolocial or historical material given the details presented, unlike the obvious fantasy elements of other worlds.

The important note though is that all magic is driven by the gods, even arcane magic is derived from divine sources so the entire world is if not pious, at least god-fearing.

[Amphetryon]

KoK is a world where, by design, you're unlikely to be running around doing the bidding of near-epics who cannot be bothered, nor cleaning up the remains of a war that was fundamentally lost by all sides.

It does have some little oddities in the editing. By way of example, there's a LA+0 Deep Gnome presented in KoK that apparently navigates underground by collision, as they lack both Low-Light and Darkvision, unless all the members of my old group missed the same paragraph.

[Starbuck_II]

The important note though is that all magic is driven by the gods, even arcane magic is derived from divine sources so the entire world is if not pious, at least god-fearing.

Sounds like FR... remember Mystra, god of magic/weaves.

Exception is Psionics has own personal weave, but yeah.

[hamlet]

Would it be stupid of me to ask for a few sentences on what sets Kingdoms of Kalamar apart from Greyhawk or The Forgotten Realms?

Kalamar as compared to Greyhawk:
*A stronger, more cohesive history, both regional and worldwide, though possibly less vaguely inspiring as Greyhawk Folio could be I suppose
*Less Magic.
*Lack of "Adventurer" as a legitimate career choice (i.e., no bulletin boards in town with "adventure opportunitites!" posted
*Less alignment as metaconcept
*Less iconics (i.e., the PC's are supposed to become the iconics)
*Less of an "adventurer's world" and more of a "get involved" world

Kalamar as compared to Forgotten Realms
*FAR LESS and FAR LOWER magic. It doesn't practically ooze from the setting's pores as it does in the Realms.
*Almost no explicit high level NPC's to overshadow PC's, almost no implied high level NPC's to overshadow PC's.
*Kalamar is a more socially developed world. Not really any of the minor city states and highly localized powers. There are empires with vast reach covering much of the land, though there are smaller, more regional nations as well, not to mention excellent city states (Dijishy springs to mind as a great one).
*The "Fantasy Quotient" is significantly turned down. Yes, there are dragons, yeti, orcs, goblins, wizards of ineffable power, etc, but they aren't practically tripping over each other. For the most part, your foes will be humans advancing their own agenda rather than the latest in a long series of cyclopean horrors emerging from the depths revealing yet another unrevealed monstrosity from the olden times.
*Far better maps and geography. I mean objectively so.
*Complete and total lack of a meta-plot. The timeline of the setting has not advanced a whit (with half of an exception) since it was first published and it is not expected to ever advance. No world shattering events to keep up with. No need to spend yourself poor on supplements just to keep up with the latest developments.

That's just a brief and incomplete few sentences for you.

[Callos_DeTerran]

That's eaxactly my question.

But I never really got what's special about Greyhawk either.

People say Forgotten Realms is generic, but I know the setting well enough that I would summarize it as "Evil churches and corrupt trade organizations fight each other for control over hundreds of small city states, while good aligned adventurerers try to stop them from exploiting the common people with the help of networks of powerful archmages."
I agree it's not as great as the premises of Planescape, Eberron, Dark Sun, and Ravenloft, but if I want high fantasy, I at least know what the Realms are about and what PCs are expected to do once they gain higher levels.
With Greyhawk and Kalamar, I have no idea.

Greyhawk is personally my favorite setting because...well...I can't really explain it. There's just a feeling of legacy about it. You don't cast Hideous Laughter. You cast Tasha's Hideous Laughter and wonder just who Tasha was. You find items, castles, and such left behind by other adventurers, not just the loot of evil bad-guys or temples. You see what other heroes have done or are still doing and know you can do the same.

Besides...It has Castle Greyhawk in it. I adore Castle Greyhawk and just wish there were more adventures for it.

[InkEyes]

That's eaxactly my question.

But I never really got what's special about Greyhawk either.

People say Forgotten Realms is generic, but I know the setting well enough that I would summarize it as "Evil churches and corrupt trade organizations fight each other for control over hundreds of small city states, while good aligned adventurerers try to stop them from exploiting the common people with the help of networks of powerful archmages."
I agree it's not as great as the premises of Planescape, Eberron, Dark Sun, and Ravenloft, but if I want high fantasy, I at least know what the Realms are about and what PCs are expected to do once they gain higher levels.
With Greyhawk and Kalamar, I have no idea.

I kind of figured that's what you were asking. See, I had the same problem with finding concise sources on what KoK was all about, but this thread is helping me quite a bit.

re Greyhawk: it's appeal is a mix of nostalgia and pure vanillaness. It's the first setting and because of that there's a lot of history with it's nations and races, but It's completely generic and thereby open to modification. It's also free of any of those tricky details like"YOU MUST WORSHIP A GOD OR BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO YOU" or "MAGIC TRAINS AND ROBOTS" so it's easy to pick up the system and not worry much about the fluff. I'm not a huge fan of it, but I can see why Wizards would use it as their base campaign for the first edition they released. It drew in old players and was easy to grasp for newbies.

That's just a brief and incomplete few sentences for you.

Cool, thanks for that.

-----


One Two follow-up questions: are there any unique approaches to the races or nations of the world? Are there any you really like/think the designers could've done more with?

[hamlet]

One Two follow-up questions: are there any unique approaches to the races or nations of the world? Are there any you really like/think the designers could've done more with?

Unique in what way? You mean unlike any other published campaign setting?

No, not really, though that is changing somewhat with the new Hackmaster materials and humanoids at least (see, bugbears who must consume a sentient child in order for the female to "go into heat"). For the most part, and this is another draw for me at least, the designers took what they had (i.e., the standard D&D type creatures/races) and made best use of them via extrapolation.

For example, the Hobgoblins are, essentially, the embodiment of this. In the monster manuals (or, at least in mine), Hobgoblins are noted as being militant, organized, and disciplined in addition to simply evil. So, here in Kalamar, the Hobgoblins formed their own kingdoms a long while ago, which are still extant and interact on a more or less civilized basis with their neighbors. The most significant would be Norga-Krangrel, formed by Kruk-Ma-Kali after he conquered the Eastern Brandobian Empire (much of it anyway) and took control of the disparate tribes, uniting them. When he died, his empire diminished, though still exists and legends abound that when he was slain by treacherous minions, his body was spirited away by a faithful few and buried in an elaborate tomb with his renowned sword to await a true Hobgoblin, a reincarnation of the great Kruk-Ma-Kali himself, to discover and reclaim the sword and lead the Hobgoblins to their manifest destiny of rulling over all other sentient beings.

Some things I'd wish done better? Well . . . at times, though I know that the setting is very humanocentric, it feels like certain demi-humans got short shrift in the main CS book. Gnomes, Halflings, and to some extent Dwarves are sort of pushed out of their limelight, though again, it's understandable considering the goals of the designers. Dwarves do, though, get saved by having about the coolest adventure/campaign hooks known to man IMO.

Still, I would have loved to have seen stronger material defining the places of some of the demi-humans, even if only a few pages.

[Yora]

Kalamar as compared to Greyhawk:

Kalamar as compared to Forgotten Realms

And this is what I see as a problem with a setting. Just doing things different than others doesn't make a good setting.
What does KoK have for itself, what does it have to show, what makes player thinking "I want to explore that and learn more about it"?

I admit, this is an approach to fiction that depends on personal taste and oppinion. There's nothing wrong to admire a work for it's craftmanship. But I value art on it's ability to inspire the audience, to evoke emotion and stimulaty the imagination.
And I wonder if this was atempted by the writers at all?

[hamlet]

And this is what I see as a problem with a setting. Just doing things different than others doesn't make a good setting.
What does KoK have for itself, what does it have to show, what makes player thinking "I want to explore that and learn more about it"?

I admit, this is an approach to fiction that depends on personal taste and oppinion. There's nothing wrong to admire a work for it's craftmanship. But I value art on it's ability to inspire the audience, to evoke emotion and stimulaty the imagination.
And I wonder if this was atempted by the writers at all?

One might very well turn the question around and ask what about Forgotten Realms inspires and makes you want to learn more about it? Frankly, I find the setting dull and boorish.

And if you wonder if this was attempted by the writers at all, then you plainly have never read it and are talking out the side of your neck. Follow the links I provided you above and read some of the specific material. Read the preview pages of the setting book. Couple of my favorite pages are in there, specifically the history of Brandobia. Go and read and form an opinion rather than demanding that somebody form an opinion on your behalf.

The best way to understand the setting is to read it, as it does not lend itself at all to capsule descriptions like Forgotten Realms or Planescape or anything else.

[Starbuck_II]

Well, FR has guns along side magic. (granted not everyone has guns since only diety Gond allows them created).

[hamlet]

Well, FR has guns along side magic. (granted not everyone has guns since only diety Gond allows them created).

That doesn't make it unique. Or even that interesting.

Ptolus had guns and is FAR more on both counts.

[arguskos]

Well, FR has guns along side magic. (granted not everyone has guns since only diety Gond allows them created).

Faerun is a much more complex and deep setting than many people seem to wish to believe. If they, as hamlet is so forcefully insisting, "just go read it", they might find that it's more than just "LOLOLOLEPICMAGES" and "Drizz't saves teh days!". Also, you don't have to like it, but, this thread is not about bashing something you don't like.

Also, hamlet, when someone asks for your thoughts on what sets something apart and makes it special, a good response is not, "Stop talking about stuff you don't know about and go read it!" That just makes you sound like a boor and an ass. I get that you really like it, and are defending it, but honestly, some folk don't have the TIME to read through all that, and would just like a concise answer from the resident expert. It's not a major thing Yora is asking, just "what makes Kalamar special?" and there's been no answer thus far, just "well, it's not Eberron or the Forgotten Realms". Just food for thought.

[hamlet]

Also, hamlet, when someone asks for your thoughts on what sets something apart and makes it special, a good response is not, "Stop talking about stuff you don't know about and go read it!" That just makes you sound like a boor and an ass. I get that you really like it, and are defending it, but honestly, some folk don't have the TIME to read through all that, and would just like a concise answer from the resident expert. It's not a major thing Yora is asking, just "what makes Kalamar special?" and there's been no answer thus far, just "well, it's not Eberron or the Forgotten Realms". Just food for thought.

Yeah, here's the thing: I GAVE AN ANSWER. More than once.

Yora simply didn't like my answer and demanded a new one repeatedly and my response to that was "you know how I feel and why, if you want to know more, then go ask others who like it and perhaps read the 7 pages available for free." Seven pages is not, precisely, an epic time sink you know.

And as for "it's not Forgotten Realms," I was specifically asked to note differences as I see them between the two settings and was specifically responding to that poster who was not Yora.

Further, I might be a boor and an ass much of the time in my life, but I have been neither here and I resent being labeled as such.

And, for the record, I have read the Forgotten Realms material and my opinions of it are, for the most part, informed, and precisely that, opinions.

[Yora]

As I said, FR has all these evil churches, like those of Bane, Cyric, and Shar, evil trade organizations like Zhentarim, Iron Throne, and Night Masks, and some other factions like the Red Wizards and the Shades. All of those are constantly plotting on taking over governments and destroying those who get in their way.
I don't say it's the perfect campaign for everyone, but protecting the commoners and rightful rulers from these evil organizations by exposing their plots and fighting their leaders is a pretty solid basic theme for a campaign.

[arguskos]

I said you appeared to be boorish, with repeated applications of "just go read it!" Personally, I don't think you are either, but others may disagree and I figured I'd mention it, since you seem to have taken this to heart rather strongly, and don't wish to see you get an infraction for having a strong opinion.

As for a blurb about what Kalamar is, I just checked the entire thread, and all I found was that you feel it is superbly detailed and made with a sense for politics and mapmaking. These are great traits, ones that other settings DO lack for, yes, but that doesn't really tell someone much about the setting. I believe Yora is wondering what a game may look like, what NPC interaction is like, etc. You know, stuff you can actually figure out with other settings in about 5 minutes reading the sourcebook. With Kalamar, such things seem to be harder to discern, thus the confusion.

Finally, as for the Realms and your opinions, I didn't mean to slight them. I have a dislike of people smashing the Realms without cause, and I'm glad to see you have at least done your homework, which so very few others do. Also, I have no wish to turn this into a Realms debate, since that's not the POINT of the thread.

tl;dr: I have no dog in the fight, just wish to clarify and explain things, since it feels as though emotion is getting in the way of comprehension for several folks here.

[TheMadLinguist]

Faerun is a much more complex and deep setting than many people seem to wish to believe. If they, as hamlet is so forcefully insisting, "just go read it", they might find that it's more than just "LOLOLOLEPICMAGES" and "Drizz't saves teh days!". Also, you don't have to like it, but, this thread is not about bashing something you don't like.

After the module I played through where after the PCs are in a tough battle the GM is instructed to have an old man waving a stick at a dog and telling it to "heel"*, I've lost all hope for the setting. As did my DM.




*Spoiler: the old man is Elminister and the stick just happens to be a staff of healing or curing or something.