(3.5) First Time Warlock?

[Furnok]

This is the first time I have/the DM has had a warlock in his campaign world. So the question I have is can the EB crit and if so do you roll double damage on all of the EB damage dice (our house rules are you dont have to confirm crits)? The reason I ask is this seems a little too powerful and the DM is thinking that as well. So what arguments can you give for allowing the damage to multiply?

Thanks

[SilverStar]

The rules state that you can crit with any weapon-like spell such as a ray spell, threatening such on a natural 20 and dealing double damage if confirmed.

EB in its base form is a ranged touch attack, requiring an attack roll, so I'd assume the same applies. I believe the Complete Arcane will confirm this.

As for my arguments on why it should apply, well, why shouldn't it? It's a critical hit. If a warrior can smack down a guy for 4x damage with a scythe, why can't a warlock do it for a measly x2?

[Swok]

Presumably it can, as spells with an attack roll can crit.

[The Shadowmind]

A sorcerer with a orb of acid can deal more damage that the warlock can even if the EB crits. So a critical EB isn't really that much damage 12d6x2 at level 20, orbcerer 15d6 at level 15, and metamagic could still apply.

[awa]

The damage might seem like a lot but a warrior with a two handed weapon and power attack will out pace you on a crit quite quickly not the least becuase it's easier for him to get crits

Edit and of course full casters can quickly make damage itself obsolete so theirs that to.

[KillianHawkeye]

Let me put it to you this way: A 10th level Warlock does 5d6 damage with his eldritch blast, right? That's an average of 17.5 damage, or 35 on a crit. A 10th level Barbarian with an 18 Strength who wields a greataxe and Power Attacks for only 5 points deals 1d12+16, which averages 22.5 damage (or 67.5 on a crit). And that's not even including bonuses from rage or having a magic weapon.

Or to compare it to a Rogue's sneak attack, which doesn't get multiplied by a critical hit: realize that a flanking Rogue can get sneak attack on all his attacks (including attacks of opportunity), and may be wielding more than one weapon, while a Warlock gets only one eldritch blast (unless using eldritch glaive).

[The Shadowmind]

Warmage, with lesser orb of X, level 1 spell, 6/day before Charisma bonus spells, and items.
Assuming INT of 14, with Does 5d8+2 damage without metamagic, and Spell resistance doesn't apply. And it possibly can critical as well. So 24.5 damage, and 49 damage on a critical. This is with a 1st level spell, the 4th level orb of X deals, 10d6+2, 35 average, 70 on a critica, the the target has to save of be sickened/dazed/. At this level,without the status effects, empowering the lesser orb would be a better use of his time though. 36.75 average, before critical, for a third level slot.

At 13th level, it would be Warlock 9, Binder 1, Hellfire Warlock 3, with Eldritch Glaive, then the warlock could do some real damage with the right build.

[SilverStar]

Oh, and Lesser Globe of Invulnerability smashes a warlock down FLAT if she doesn't do stuff with her EB.

[true_shinken]

Oh, and Lesser Globe of Invulnerability smashes a warlock down FLAT if she doesn't do stuff with her EB.

A Warlock focused on eldritch blast should have the higher level essences/shapes always available.

[DaedalusMkV]

A Warlock focused on eldritch blast should have the higher level essences/shapes always available.

Even if they don't, effective spell level for your Eldritch Blast is equal to your Warlock level/2 rounded down (max 9). In other words, LGoI doesn't hurt a Warlock any harder than it hurts a Sorceror, and in some ways less since a level 8 Sorc only has ~5 4th level spell slots, max, while the 'lock can spam his EB (or other offensive invocations, since most Lessers are ESL 4) until the enemy stops moving. There is that one level where Wizard shuts them both down, though...

[Sinon]

Even if they don't, effective spell level for your Eldritch Blast is equal to your Warlock level/2 rounded down (max 9)...

From the errata:

An eldritch blast is the equivalent
of a 1st-level spell. If you apply a blast shape or eldritch
essence invocation to your eldritch blast (see page 130),
your eldritch blast uses the level equivalent of the shape
or essence.

[Prime32]

Remember, the difference between a normal hit and a crit is the same as the difference between a crit and a miss.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I should also like to point out that there's lots of fun things a Warlock can do besides blast, although they certainly can spam-blast quite easily.

Look up some of the extra Eldritch Essence invocations. Specifically: Hindering Blast (slows targets), Vitriolic Blast (ignores SR), and Utterdark Blast (negative levels to go with that damage). There's also Eldritch Essences that apply Blindness, Confusion, and Nauseated conditions.

Now combine that with Chain Blast. Now multiple opponents are locked down. An unlimited number of times per day.

Also, Warlocks have a lot of defenses as well. At-Will DimDoor is pretty darn spiffy, as is Greater Invisibility, Casting Stat to saves, Dispel that does damage to target (handy to spam and drop opponent buffs)

The thing about a Warlock is that he can apply these an unlimited number of times per day. Not too shabby when you are running a million-mob-marathon type game with a real time crunch to keep wizards from MMM'ing.

[Endarire]

A Warlock is, at heart, an archer with some other minor tricks. 1d6 as a ranged touch attack at level 1 may be significant, but this spiffiness lessens as levels rise.

A level 1 melee character can do +6 per damage per hit from STR alone. A Warlock does d6. Who gets the better deal?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A Warlock is, at heart, an archer with some other minor tricks. 1d6 as a ranged touch attack at level 1 may be significant, but this spiffiness lessens as levels rise.

A level 1 melee character can do +6 per damage per hit from STR alone. A Warlock does d6. Who gets the better deal?

The typical answer is 'the one who hits'... however, the strength of the Warlock class isn't damage output, it is damage + status effect, an unlimited amount.

They can be a very effective lockdown class, if properly built.

[Irreverent Fool]

So what arguments can you give for allowing the damage to multiply?

Attack Roll
An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals or beats the target’s Armor Class, you hit and deal damage.

Automatic Misses and Hits
A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit.

Source: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm

Critical Hits
When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.

A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.

Source: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm

If it's an attack roll, it can crit. If it deals damage, it gets multiplied on a confirmed critical. No arguments needed.
[/thread]

obnoxious
sig

[Person_Man]

Irreverent Fool et al are correct. If you roll an attack, it can crit.

Also, while there are a few tricks he can pull off (Hide in Plain Site at level 1, Fear combos, endless Hellfire with Strongheart Vest) Warlocks are generally considered weaker then full casters, Dragonfire Adepts, ToB builds, Incarnum builds, Psionics, etc.

[Optimystik]

There's a common belief that a Warlock is weaker than a Dragonfire Adept, and in a naked comparison this belief is not without merit. But the Warlocks true strengths are Deceive Item and Imbue Item, which puts them just behind Artificers and Incarnum in terms of shoring up their defenses with goodies.

Deceive Item lets them reliably make UMD checks in combat starting as early as level 4. Once Imbue Item comes into play at 12, they can start crafting items for any spell from any class, effectively becoming a walking Magic Mart. Both are well within the bounds of mid-level games.

[Raendyn]

EB can crit, it has attack roll.

take that invocation that allows you to fly for 24 hours, the other 1 that makes you small. take halfling, you are a tiny BEE that flies & pew pew everything that moves with imba AC( & touch ac) & imba attack roll.

[Optimystik]

Or just start small - Hengeyokai, Pixie, Petal etc.

[Tinydwarfman]

Indeed, it always ticked me off that one of the warlocks' best abilities was deceive item and imbue item, which just didn't seem to fit with the flavor.

[kamikasei]

"Imba" AC and attack? Aren't they just +2 each?

[Jeff240sx]

Improved Critical + Eldritch Glaive + Belt of Battle & Anklets of Translocation?

Warlock4/Binder1/Ur-Priest2/E Disciple3/Hellfire Warlock3 = Level 13.
4th Level Cleric Spells
Warlock 10

Divine Power + 11d6 damage. 19-20 x2 crit. Reach, interative attacks.

+13/+8/+3, touch attacks, at 11d6 each, plus 1.5x STR (which just got a +6 buff), and a 10% crit chance.

Figuring a 18STR, and a +5 power attack, you'd have a touch attack of 11d6 + 11 per hit.

Get a house-ruled Practiced Spellcaster for Eldritch Blasts and get your 3 EB levels back, for another 1d6 and a further 1d6 next level.
The house-ruled feat shouldn't be too hard, as Arcane, Divine and Psionics get it.

Warlocks can do damage, they need a ton of feats and a different build than Warlock20.

[Optimystik]

Indeed, it always ticked me off that one of the warlocks' best abilities was deceive item and imbue item, which just didn't seem to fit with the flavor.

Why not? I thought a tricky ancestor was an important bit of the default fluff.

And if you're skilled at manipulating magical energy, it stands to reason you'd be better at UMD than a purely non-magical class (like Rogue) that just fakes it.

[Tinydwarfman]

Why not? I thought a tricky ancestor was an important bit of the default fluff.

And if you're skilled at manipulating magical energy, it stands to reason you'd be better at UMD than a purely non-magical class (like Rogue) that just fakes it.

Maybe it's just our different perceptions of UMD and magic items in general, but they seem very counter intuitive to the raw, instinctive powers of the warlock; while creating magic items always seem like a very scientific wizard thing.

And a warlock's ancestors aren't always tricky, the standard is demons or devils, but it can be any "dark and chaotic power".

[The Shadowmind]

Maybe it's just our different perceptions of UMD and magic items in general, but they seem very counter intuitive to the raw, instinctive powers of the warlock; while creating magic items always seem like a very scientific wizard thing.

Fluff wise UMD is activated not by knowledge, but raw magic energy since it is from CHA instead of INT, which is something Warlock's have an infinite supply of. So the item creation aspect could be forcing the warlock's magic strait into the item the shaping it into the desired effect.

[Optimystik]

You can create art through instinct every bit as much as through formal training. While this runs into the classic magic/sociology debate ("Is it Art, or Science?" The correct answer is both), it does account for warlock abilities quite well.

These class features definitely grant an edge to the Warlock over the DFA in my opinion - especially when magic items are harder to come by.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Improved Critical + Eldritch Glaive + Belt of Battle & Anklets of Translocation?

Warlock4/Binder1/Ur-Priest2/E Disciple3/Hellfire Warlock3 = Level 13.
4th Level Cleric Spells
Warlock 10

Divine Power + 11d6 damage. 19-20 x2 crit. Reach, interative attacks.

+13/+8/+3, touch attacks, at 11d6 each, plus 1.5x STR (which just got a +6 buff), and a 10% crit chance.

Figuring a 18STR, and a +5 power attack, you'd have a touch attack of 11d6 + 11 per hit.

Get a house-ruled Practiced Spellcaster for Eldritch Blasts and get your 3 EB levels back, for another 1d6 and a further 1d6 next level.
The house-ruled feat shouldn't be too hard, as Arcane, Divine and Psionics get it.

Warlocks can do damage, they need a ton of feats and a different build than Warlock20.

Actually, it's a lot easier. You see, Divine Power is a 4th level spell, thus can be stored in a Wand, which Warlocks can never fail their UMD check on...

Or, if you want to do some real cheese, go Warlock4/cleric3/E.Disciple 4 and not only get Divine Power, but be able to DMM Persist it all day long. Then in a couple of levels, DMM Persist Righteous Might, and go to town.

[Jeff240sx]

Actually, it's a lot easier. You see, Divine Power is a 4th level spell, thus can be stored in a Wand, which Warlocks can never fail their UMD check on...

Or, if you want to do some real cheese, go Warlock4/cleric3/E.Disciple 4 and not only get Divine Power, but be able to DMM Persist it all day long. Then in a couple of levels, DMM Persist Righteous Might, and go to town.

DMM cheese is predicated on A) getting Nightsticks, and B) being immune to the book-to-the-head (su.) ability of the DM.

I get where you're going. I <3 Ur-Locks though. Full (with Practiced Invoke homebrew feat) Warlock EB progression, plus 6d6 Hellfire damage that doesn't diminish on the Eldritch Chain shape, and 9th level Divine. /drool.

[Optimystik]

DMM cheese is predicated on A) getting Nightsticks, and B) being immune to the book-to-the-head (su.) ability of the DM.

You don't need Nightsticks; they just make things easier. You can get by just with repeatedly taking Extra Turning, and the Undeath domain, for instance - especially if you're only persisting Divine Power.

I get where you're going. I <3 Ur-Locks though. Full (with Practiced Invoke homebrew feat) Warlock EB progression, plus 6d6 Hellfire damage that doesn't diminish on the Eldritch Chain shape, and 9th level Divine. /drool.

You don't need Ur-Priest to get Dark Invocations and 9th-level divines. A non-evil Eldritch Disciple can use Divine Magician to qualify for Mystic Theurge, and get them that way.