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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Hi. I had a thought today and I was hoping someone might be able to help me out. Would a character fighting with a bastard sword in two hands and unarmed strikes using two-weapon fighting get to add 1 1/2 their strength bonus to their sword attacks? Is it even possible to use two-weapon fighting with a two-handed sword and unarmed strikes? Thanks.
    Last edited by Zach J.; 2010-04-15 at 11:27 AM.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    How are you wielding a two-handed weapon and fighting with unarmed strikes at the same time? Are you dropping the sword every round?

    As far as I know, if all of your arms are holding the same weapon you can't use TWF. I guess if you can afford grafts or something, it becomes a valid possibility.

    I stand corrected. You can use TWF with a two-handed sword and kicking.
    Last edited by Trekkin; 2010-04-15 at 11:53 AM.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekkin View Post
    How are you wielding a two-handed weapon and fighting with unarmed strikes at the same time? Are you dropping the sword every round?
    I was thinking that the character just attacked opponents with his feet instead of his fists.

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    Il_Vec's Avatar

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    You mean atacking with a sword held in both hands and using TWF to Kick?
    Don't remember anything saying you can't, so, yeah, taking apropriate penalties... And remembering that secondary atacks add 1/2 Strenght.
    Inner fear is your only enemy.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Right, right. So the first attack would get 1 1/2 strength to damage and the second, the kick, would get 1/2.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Right, and the appropriate penalties to hit for both. Although if what you're looking for is Trip, you will need a high enough BAB to get more attacks per round.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekkin View Post
    Right, and the appropriate penalties to hit for both. Although if what you're looking for is Trip, you will need a high enough BAB to get more attacks per round.
    Hmm, Tripping might be interesting...

    This is actually a character who's been fighting with a two-bladed sword. I realized that I just don't like the aesthetics of the two-bladed sword so I've been thinking of retraining his proficiency with that into Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword) or something. He'd still have two-weapon fighting and improved unarmed strike though so I thought maybe I could use them all together.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Maybe get Monkey Grip from Sword and Fist? It will let you hold the sword in one hand so you can punch with the other (or hold a second sword in that hand).

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekkin View Post
    How are you wielding a two-handed weapon and fighting with unarmed strikes at the same time? Are you dropping the sword every round?

    As far as I know, if all of your arms are holding the same weapon you can't use TWF. I guess if you can afford grafts or something, it becomes a valid possibility.
    He'd be fighting like this.


    And yes, you can use TWFing like this. You are wielding your Unarmed Strike and another weapon.

    Disclaimer: No debating TWFing with just your Unarmed Strike, please.

  10. - Top - End - #10
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    He'd be fighting like this.


    And yes, you can use TWFing like this. You are wielding your Unarmed Strike and another weapon.

    Disclaimer: No debating TWFing with just your Unarmed Strike, please.
    Hmm...I like what I see. :)

    Cool. I'll just have to talk to my DM about retraining my feat now. Thanks!

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zach J. View Post
    Hmm...I like what I see. :)

    Cool. I'll just have to talk to my DM about retraining my feat now. Thanks!
    While you are at it, take Snap Kick and Superior Unarmed Strike from ToB

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zach J. View Post
    Hmm...I like what I see. :)

    Cool. I'll just have to talk to my DM about retraining my feat now. Thanks!
    It's a fun style to watch. Works best with a Glaive though, so you get reach and can trip people. You're spending more feats than just going EWP: Spiked Chain, but you can get 7 attacks/round by taking your 5ft step after hitting with your glaive/unarmed strike enough.


    For bonus points, there's the Evasive Reflexes feat (replace AoO with 5ft step), and there should be another feat out there that lets you take AoOs with both weapons you are wielding when using TWFing. Combine the two, and whenever they stand up after being tripped you can step backwards (sacrificing your Unarmed Strike) and then hit them with the Glaive again. Even if they are able to step up to you in the same round, they are guaranteed to get screwed out of their full attack if they don't have a reach equal to your own.

    Combine with standard Lockdown build to play Battlefield Control.

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    As Zach mentioned, unarmed strike need not be your fist. You can kick, elbow, headbutt, etc.

    You can also pull of the same trick with armor spikes and a two handed weapon (though armor spikes can't qualify for Power Attack). It's actually a pretty decent 1st level combo for a Darfellan or a similar race - Greatsword (2d6 + 1.5*Str) + bite (1d6 + 1.5*Str) + armor spikes (1d6 + 0.5*Str). With 20 Str (18 + 2 racial) that's potentially 4d6 + 17 damage per round (although your To-Hit won't be that great).

    But note that once you hit level 6ish+ the bonus damage from your Str tends to be negligible compared to the bonuses you can get from other sources (Power Attack/Leap Attack, psionics, maneuvers, incarnum, etc). So it's usually not worth investing any resources into it.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    It's a fun style to watch. Works best with a Glaive though, so you get reach and can trip people. You're spending more feats than just going EWP: Spiked Chain, but you can get 7 attacks/round by taking your 5ft step after hitting with your glaive/unarmed strike enough.


    For bonus points, there's the Evasive Reflexes feat (replace AoO with 5ft step), and there should be another feat out there that lets you take AoOs with both weapons you are wielding when using TWFing. Combine the two, and whenever they stand up after being tripped you can step backwards (sacrificing your Unarmed Strike) and then hit them with the Glaive again. Even if they are able to step up to you in the same round, they are guaranteed to get screwed out of their full attack if they don't have a reach equal to your own.

    Combine with standard Lockdown build to play Battlefield Control.

    I imagine that there are much better options out there, but my character doesn't really have the intelligence to learn the feats required. I'll remember your suggestions though. This seems like it would be a fun thing to try out.
    Last edited by Zach J.; 2010-04-15 at 03:58 PM.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    As Zach mentioned, unarmed strike need not be your fist. You can kick, elbow, headbutt, etc.

    You can also pull of the same trick with armor spikes and a two handed weapon (though armor spikes can't qualify for Power Attack). It's actually a pretty decent 1st level combo for a Darfellan or a similar race - Greatsword (2d6 + 1.5*Str) + bite (1d6 + 1.5*Str) + armor spikes (1d6 + 0.5*Str). With 20 Str (18 + 2 racial) that's potentially 4d6 + 17 damage per round (although your To-Hit won't be that great).

    But note that once you hit level 6ish+ the bonus damage from your Str tends to be negligible compared to the bonuses you can get from other sources (Power Attack/Leap Attack, psionics, maneuvers, incarnum, etc). So it's usually not worth investing any resources into it.
    Hmm, at level 6 he'll become a Berserk and I'm also thinking about Power Attack. But Two-Weapon Fighting with Power Attack too...I'll never hit anything will I?

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zach J. View Post
    Hmm, at level 6 he'll become a Berserk and I'm also thinking about Power Attack. But Two-Weapon Fighting with Power Attack too...I'll never hit anything will I?
    Not unless you have massive to-hit bonuses, or are ubercharging, which rather defeats the purpose of TWF. Also, a light off-hand weapon (except unarmed strike) does no extra damage with Power Attack and still takes the attack penalty.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trekkin View Post
    Maybe get Monkey Grip from Sword and Fist? It will let you hold the sword in one hand
    That's only an option if you're playing D&D 3.0. In 3.5 weapon sizes don't work that way, and Monkey Grip (from Complete Warrior) does something different.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikethepoor View Post
    Not unless you have massive to-hit bonuses, or are ubercharging, which rather defeats the purpose of TWF. Also, a light off-hand weapon (except unarmed strike) does no extra damage with Power Attack and still takes the attack penalty.
    I was planning on still using the bastard sword along with improved unarmed strike as my two weapons. Hmm...as our group isn't exactly made up of power-gamers I think I'll be ok with taking power attack and just using that with frenzy without two-weapon fighting. I don't know if anyone else will agree with me but when I think of someone going into a berserk fury I imagine they'll be giving their all with each swing. He can still use two-weapon fighting when he's normal.

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    A strict reading of TWF states that you can only take an extra attack with a weapon in your off-hand.(emphisis mine) A headbutt is not in your off-hand.
    However, you can take an off-hand attack with Armor Spikes, which is precedent for taking off-hand headbutts.
    However, Armor Spikes specifically state they can be used with an off-hand attack, headbutts do not.
    However, TWF does imply it can be used with an Unarmed Attack.

    So a compelling argument could be made either way, (unless there is an official ruling on the subject)

    Edit: Personally, I see nothing unbalanced about using TWF in this fashion.
    Last edited by QuantumSteve; 2010-04-15 at 11:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Ok, I totally wanna make a same or 1 higher level glaive and kicker to send my party against, that would be a different feel from the "ok, now it's an OGRE, ooooooh" I've been doing. I like the idea of them not really knowing what he's gonna do next, sort of thing.

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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumSteve View Post
    A strict reading of TWF states that you can only take an extra attack with a weapon in your off-hand.(emphisis mine) A headbutt is not in your off-hand.
    However, you can take an off-hand attack with Armor Spikes, which is precedent for taking off-hand headbutts.
    However, Armor Spikes specifically state they can be used with an off-hand attack, headbutts do not.
    However, TWF does imply it can be used with an Unarmed Attack.

    So a compelling argument could be made either way, (unless there is an official ruling on the subject)

    Edit: Personally, I see nothing unbalanced about using TWF in this fashion.
    I now see Armor Spikes on a Helmet, making you look like a unicorn, and you headbutt with it.

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    There are 2 different uses of "offhand" in the PHB. One is descriptive, and refers to your non-dominant hand. The other is mechanical, and is defined as an attack you make other than your primary attack that deals 1/2 Str bonus extra damage and causes all attacks that round to suffer relevant TWF penalties as outlined in the Combat section of the PHB.

    You can make "offhand" attacks with any number of weapons that aren't held in your hands, including Armor Spikes, Weighted Cloaks, and most of the Complete Scoundrel hidden weapons like Boot Blades.
    Last edited by Keld Denar; 2010-04-16 at 02:22 AM.
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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zach J. View Post
    Hmm, at level 6 he'll become a Berserk and I'm also thinking about Power Attack. But Two-Weapon Fighting with Power Attack too...I'll never hit anything will I?
    Probably not. But there are ways around that. What exactly is your build, and what are your build goals? (For example, are you wedded to the bastard sword, or are you willing to consider superior weapons? Do you just want to deal damage, or do you want defense and/or battlefield control?)

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Probably not. But there are ways around that. What exactly is your build, and what are your build goals? (For example, are you wedded to the bastard sword, or are you willing to consider superior weapons? Do you just want to deal damage, or do you want defense and/or battlefield control?)
    I suppose the point is moot now. Right now our party has a rogue, two fighters and a knight. I've decided to retire my fighter and my new character, a druid, is going to make his first appearance tonight. Thank you for all the suggestions though!

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Although I'd still be interested in what you'd suggest Person_Man. The character was an elf fighter level 2.

    His stats were Str 15, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 9.

    Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Two-Bladed Sword), Improved Unarmed Strike and Two-Weapon Fighting

    I was planning on retraing for focus in another weapon. Something with reach would be useful, but as you can tell my character doesn't really have the intelligence to take feats like Improved Trip. Would the Wolf Totem Barbarian be a valid choice? It would fit the rp things I've doing with the character (He's been getting increasingly more bloodthirsty in battle and has had several disturbing dreams.) and we're about to run into a nomadic group of elves who have quite a few rangers and barbarians in their ranks. Would I do better to focus on some kind of tripper? I've never actually played something like that before and if it sounds interesting enough I might just stick with this character.

    What about...

    Ftr 1: Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), Two-Weapon Fighting
    Ftr 2: Improved Unarmed Strike
    Ftr 2/Bbn 1: Power Attack (or Iron Will as it would make more sense RP wise)
    Ftr 2/Bbn 2: Improved Trip
    Ftr 4/Bbn 2: Knock-Down, Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword)

    I know that this isn't a very optimized character but I think it's pretty interesting.

    Afterwards I would probably try to keep his Barbarian and Fighter levels within two levels of each other and work towards earning the prerequisite feats for Frenzied Berserker.
    Last edited by Zach J.; 2010-04-16 at 01:18 PM.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Suppose there was a fighter who was using a bastard sword in two hands with kicks as his off-hand weapon for Two-Weapon Fighting. If he did more than 10 damage with his bastard sword would he be able to then trip his opponent with his feet, hit with the bastard sword again and finally stomp on his opponent one more time for good measure? I only ask because it doesn't say that you can trip with a bastard sword. Do you have to trip with the same weapon you used to cause the damage according to Knock-Down?

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zach J. View Post
    Although I'd still be interested in what you'd suggest Person_Man. The character was an elf fighter level 2.

    His stats were Str 15, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 9.

    Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Two-Bladed Sword), Improved Unarmed Strike and Two-Weapon Fighting

    I was planning on retraing for focus in another weapon. Something with reach would be useful, but as you can tell my character doesn't really have the intelligence to take feats like Improved Trip. Would the Wolf Totem Barbarian be a valid choice? It would fit the rp things I've doing with the character (He's been getting increasingly more bloodthirsty in battle and has had several disturbing dreams.) and we're about to run into a nomadic group of elves who have quite a few rangers and barbarians in their ranks. Would I do better to focus on some kind of tripper? I've never actually played something like that before and if it sounds interesting enough I might just stick with this character.

    What about...

    Ftr 1: Weapon Focus (Guisarme), Two-Weapon Fighting
    Ftr 2: Improved Unarmed Strike
    Ftr 2/Bbn 1: Power Attack (or Iron Will as it would make more sense RP wise)
    Ftr 2/Bbn 2: Improved Trip
    Ftr 4/Bbn 2: Knock-Down, Weapon Specialization (Guisarme)

    Feats that provide minor bonuses are generally a waste of precious resources. So there's really no reason to take Weapon Focus, Weapon or Specialization unless you need them as a pre-req for something else you really really want. And Two Weapon Fighting does not mathematically work well with Trip or Power Attack.

    So if you want a TWF Fighter build that uses a double weapon, I suggest you use Dire Flail Smash. This gives you a potent Daze effect (which nothing is immune to). You can also use Improved Sunder against casters (destroy their Spell Component pouch or holy symbol) and some ranged builds (destroy their quiver) - just be sure to buy an adamantine weapon. Something like Fighter 2/Hexblade 4/Blackguard 4 would work well.

    If you want a standard Trip and Power Attack build, then Fighter 2/Barbarian 2 does work fine (though Psychic Warrior would be better). Improved Trip -> Knock-Down and Power Attack -> Leap Attack -> Shock Trooper, plus any two handed reach weapon and Combat Reflexes.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    A fighter using a double flail sounds really cool, but unfortunately I don't think our dm would allow any evil characters in the party right now. I think I'll just start playing the druid. If I do that our party will then have a...

    Human Rogue who's planning on multi-classing into Fighter and then maybe Bard (This is a DMPC. She's a big RPer.).
    Human Swashbuckler/Fighter who uses TWP with his rapier and shield bashing.
    Human Knight who... I actually don't know what this character is doing. It's a new player and she's actually only used her knightly abilities once in about 5 sessions.
    And me, an Elf Druid, who will try to keep us all from dying.

    As you can probably tell myself and the people I play with don't use builds or power game or really anything. The basic strategy in battle (when there's been fighting...) so far has been to run up to the other guys and hit them while trying to avoid being hit. It's been fun, but still...
    Last edited by Zach J.; 2010-04-16 at 01:48 PM.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Id like to point out that a level of monk allows your entire body to become an "off-hand" attack i.e. shins elbows feet knees shoulders whatever. Also, with that level of monk you don't deal half damage on your unarmed off-hand strikes. So you could essentially use a 2-hander with str*1.5 and yer unarmed off hand with str*1.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Two-Weapon Fighting Query?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint GoH View Post
    Id like to point out that a level of monk allows your entire body to become an "off-hand" attack i.e. shins elbows feet knees shoulders whatever. Also, with that level of monk you don't deal half damage on your unarmed off-hand strikes. So you could essentially use a 2-hander with str*1.5 and yer unarmed off hand with str*1.
    Haha that's a cool idea. Unfortunately this character is pretty chaotic. ;)

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