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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default [4e] please stats for Arbaal the Undefeated

    "Most favoured of all Khorne's many followers is the warlord Arbaal the Undefeated. Countless thousands have fallen beneath his bloodthirsty axe and their skulls pile at the base of the Blood God's mighty throne. A relentless fury of destruction and blood-letting descends on Arball whenever he wades through his foes in battle - no one has ever been able to withstand his attacks. He is ever awareof the eyes of Khorne upon him, knowing that should he one da fail in battle, the terrible wrath of his patron diety shall descend upon im. Thus is the punishment of failure."

    Hello playground,
    I've recently converted my (heavily houseruled) campaign of WFRP into a (lightly houseruled) dnd campaign.

    I ruled that everything in the world is level 15 or lower (you know, the setting is pretty low level). Characters are damn powerful heroes, so I statted them at level 6, soon to be 7. All of them possess 2 magic items, so they also are christmas trees, for the setting's standard.

    Since the campaign is very high level, the group (chaotic guys) is going to meet and be the retinue of Arbaal himself.

    For who does not know his background, Arbaal is the favoured warrior of the god of war. He's continuosly searching for someone able to challenge him, and so he goes from war to war, always fighting for the weaker side, so he can have a challenge. His god's gaze is continuosly upon him, so if he ever flees or commits a cowardly act, his god would kill him on the spot.

    Arbaal should be level 11, or 12 at most, if that really gives an edge. I'm reserving levels 13-15 for epic beings, such as Nagash, Teclis, and a few others which Arbaal does not really match.
    He has to be:
    - the "perfect" warrior, i.e. as high as possible to hit and defenses, and with the widest possible array of combat styles, to reflect his experience.
    - unbeatable by a level 6 party, but a severe but beatable challenge when they will be around level 8-9 (end of campaign).
    - riding the personal hound of khorne. What critter should I use?
    - wielding the Axe of Khorne. This is his only magic item, and should be very powerful (it's the weapon of the god of war). So it should be a level 12-16 object.
    - built with the 16,14,13,12,11,10 array of scores.
    - human, i think.
    - he can have another "magic item" in the form of a mutation/ gaze of his god/ mark of chaos/ whatever.

    Any help appreciated.
    Quote Originally Posted by That Schubert Guy What Wrote that Vampire Article
    In the D&D game, so much of a character’s identity is expressed by the powers that character can use.

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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: [4e] please stats for Arbaal the Undefeated

    All of them possess 2 magic items, so they also are christmas trees, for the setting's standard.
    The DMG2 has rules for settings with few magical items (which boil down to giving players the same bonuses, only without the items). This may be worth looking into. It's not really noticeable at mid-heroic, but by mid-paragon the combat math is off if the PCs don't get level-appropriate items.

    Arbaal should be level 11, or 12 at most, if that really gives an edge.
    Be aware that a group of level-7 characters could plausibly take down a single level-12 character in combat.

    - the "perfect" warrior, i.e. as high as possible to hit and defenses, and with the widest possible array of combat styles, to reflect his experience.
    Okay. Does he have to follow PC rules, though? Because if he does, you're pretty much limited to the normal level bonus, strength bonus, magic weapon, and a feat or two. There isn't all that much you can do to optimize your to-hit and defense.

    - unbeatable by a level 6 party, but a severe but beatable challenge when they will be around level 8-9 (end of campaign).
    That's not really working out. See, a level-6 party isn't all that different from a level-8 party. The latter has a five-percent bonus to all attacks and defenses (which you are unlikely to notice in a single combat), slightly more hit points, and one extra encounter power. Simply put, in 4E, two levels are not enough to make a difference between "unbeatable" and "severe".

    - riding the personal hound of khorne. What critter should I use?
    AV has several riding animals, maybe a nightmare?

    - wielding the Axe of Khorne. This is his only magic item, and should be very powerful (it's the weapon of the god of war). So it should be a level 12-16 object.
    Yeah, try an artifact. Honestly, a level-12 object is only slightly more powerful than what the PCs are using.

    - built with the 16,14,13,12,11,10 array of scores.
    Does that include the bonuses from races and leveling up?

    - he can have another "magic item" in the form of a mutation/ gaze of his god/ mark of chaos/ whatever.
    All right, what is it supposed to do?

    Overall the best answer is probably to not use PC creation rules for this guy. He is, after all, an NPC, and by 4E rules is not supposed to be based on the same rules anyway.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: [4e] please stats for Arbaal the Undefeated

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post

    Be aware that a group of level-7 characters could plausibly take down a single level-12 character in combat.

    That's not really working out. See, a level-6 party isn't all that different from a level-8 party. The latter has a five-percent bonus to all attacks and defenses (which you are unlikely to notice in a single combat), slightly more hit points, and one extra encounter power. Simply put, in 4E, two levels are not enough to make a difference between "unbeatable" and "severe".
    Damn. I guess I'm still working with 3.5 mentality.
    Can the mount make the difference? That is, maybe when allied he has his super-dog, and when they finally clash, Arbaal is on foot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post

    Yeah, try an artifact. Honestly, a level-12 object is only slightly more powerful than what the PCs are using.
    Ok, I'll make up something starting from the artifacts in PHB.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Does that include the bonuses from races and leveling up?
    no, just starting array.

    I need a class/prestige that is proficient with everything.
    Something dedicated to self perfecting as a Kensai would be, but not with this fixation on a single weapon.

    Would it be wrong if I made Arbaal a "super kensai" who is proficient with everything?
    Quote Originally Posted by That Schubert Guy What Wrote that Vampire Article
    In the D&D game, so much of a character’s identity is expressed by the powers that character can use.

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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: [4e] please stats for Arbaal the Undefeated

    Quote Originally Posted by pasko77 View Post
    Damn. I guess I'm still working with 3.5 mentality.
    Can the mount make the difference? That is, maybe when allied he has his super-dog, and when they finally clash, Arbaal is on foot?
    Well, for a level-6 party, a CR-6 encounter in 4E is supposed to be a cakewalk, so that the party can have several level-appropriate challenges in a normal adventuring day.

    What you'd need is a greater level difference between the campaign start and the campaign end. For instance, play it from level 1 through 10. A level-15 warlord is indeed unbeatable for a level-1 party, and a challenge for a level-10 one.

    Would it be wrong if I made Arbaal a "super kensai" who is proficient with everything?
    No. If you want him proficient with everything, he is. Simple as that.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
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    Default Re: [4e] please stats for Arbaal the Undefeated

    Two ways, use the rules to make an NPC, not a pc. Or make a monster like special character. I would favour the latter as it is more fun, and the PCs will not know what to expect, where they might for a fighter npc.

    What you need to do is look at a solo who is a challenge for them, using the rules in the DMG. Stat out your warrior Abaal so he has similar or the same hits and damage. Flavor them. Give him some funky powers that reflect weapons skills and training in various skills and you are done. Many of the monsters have fighter/warrior powers, just copy the power and adjust the bonus and damage to suit. Use a similar array of ability scores as the solo has, not the PC ones.

    Some things to remember for dming 4e:

    PCs are different, don't make pcs fight pcs.
    The mechanics are simple, make up stuff using the mechanic if you want and just follow the guidelines. Keep your baddies simple.
    Don't give them too many powers, as it becomes impossible to dm in a timely manner.
    Always, always use accents when in character as an npc or monsters. I favor using terrestrial accents for different races. Elves are often French, Halflings sound like south west englanders, frontier human beings sound like scots and of course Goblins sound like americans.....

    GM
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    "Better a witty fool than a foolish wit...

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: [4e] please stats for Arbaal the Undefeated

    My PCs are not starting, they are 20+ level PCs from the old ruleset, I cannot simply put them down to first level. They are damn hard, have won battles, etc etc.
    So I thought level 6-7 was appropriate.
    I can raise Arbaal to 15 if you think my scale is too small.

    Or a solo... what level? What challenge is unbeatable by level 6 but manaegable by level 10?
    CR 12? Or it's still too easy?

    Thanks for the answers.
    Quote Originally Posted by That Schubert Guy What Wrote that Vampire Article
    In the D&D game, so much of a character’s identity is expressed by the powers that character can use.

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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: [4e] please stats for Arbaal the Undefeated

    Quote Originally Posted by pasko77 View Post
    My PCs are not starting, they are 20+ level PCs from the old ruleset, I cannot simply put them down to first level.
    In terms of power level, all of 4E plays around level 5 through 10 of the third edition, the so-called "sweet spot". According to the devteam, that's the level range where 3E works best, and the range they're aiming for. Level 20 characters in 3E are capable of way more than any level-30 (or even level-40, if that would exist) character in 4E.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: [4e] please stats for Arbaal the Undefeated

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    In terms of power level, all of 4E plays around level 5 through 10 of the third edition, the so-called "sweet spot". According to the devteam, that's the level range where 3E works best, and the range they're aiming for. Level 20 characters in 3E are capable of way more than any level-30 (or even level-40, if that would exist) character in 4E.
    not level 20 in dnd, level 20 in WFRP. :)
    Pretty low level (but still mighty warriors among normal people).
    Last edited by pasko77; 2010-04-16 at 07:50 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by That Schubert Guy What Wrote that Vampire Article
    In the D&D game, so much of a character’s identity is expressed by the powers that character can use.

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    Default Re: [4e] please stats for Arbaal the Undefeated

    Quote Originally Posted by pasko77 View Post
    not level 20 in dnd, level 20 in WFRP. :)
    Ah, okay.

    Some would argue that level-1 characters in 4E are already mighty warriors, at least that's what the fluff text says.

    But if that bothers you, play from level 5 through 15 or something. My point is the level range is what's important: two levels don't make the difference between impossible and doable, but seven or nine levels would.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: [4e] please stats for Arbaal the Undefeated

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    But if that bothers you, play from level 5 through 15 or something. My point is the level range is what's important: two levels don't make the difference between impossible and doable, but seven or nine levels would.
    Thanks, this is the bit of info that I lacked. It's my first experience with 4e and I'm still learning the balancement.
    Quote Originally Posted by That Schubert Guy What Wrote that Vampire Article
    In the D&D game, so much of a character’s identity is expressed by the powers that character can use.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4e] please stats for Arbaal the Undefeated

    Don't stick to the rules that much really. Noone says it has to be a validly generated player character.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4e] please stats for Arbaal the Undefeated

    Quote Originally Posted by pasko77 View Post
    Thanks, this is the bit of info that I lacked. It's my first experience with 4e and I'm still learning the balancement.
    Another thing that's significantly different from 3e and probably WFRP is... in the 4e paradigm (which I suppose you could discard if you like, but this is the way the designers play it), the infantrymen of Lord Venturi's Sixth Regiment are not Level 1 Human Fighters using a lower point-buy than the players; the battle-casters of the Mystic Circle are not Level 5 Human Wizards with a slightly lower point-buy than the players; and the yuan-ti sorcerer-king who rules the Crimson Jungle is not an HD-advanced Yuan-ti Swordsage 4/Fighter 2/Sorcerer 9/Vampire Dedicat 3.

    Instead, the warrior is a creature named Human Infantryman (Soldier L1, 100 XP), the mage is a creature named Mystic Circle Battlecaster (Artillery L5, 200 XP), and the yuan-ti king is a creature named Yuan-Ti Sorcerer-King (Solo Controller L20, 14000 XP).

    They're all built exactly the same way (and the same way as, say, a basilisk); they all take approximately ten seconds of prep time before you're ready to use them, and less than half an hour to create in the first place; they all take up about a quarter-page of space (give or take); and they all look nothing like the PCs do.

    Like so:
    Spoiler
    Show


    This is a Level 7 Brute. It is worth 300 XP.

    If your players are level 5, a Level 7 encounter would be somewhat challenging for them; the sort of thing they'd spend some of their expendable resources on and would remember later, but not incredibly dangerous. Not a boss fight, maybe even not a midboss fight (depending on how good your players are); perhaps the first encounter in an adventure that you want to kick off with a bang.

    So, if you want a Level 7 encounter (suppose you do, for the sake of explanation), what you do is go over to the encounter-value-by-level table in the DMG. There, you see that--for a party of five players--the XP value of a level 7 encounter is 1500 XP.

    Therefore, five cave trolls--like the one presented above--would be a suitable level 7 encounter, and about as difficult as any level 7 encounter would be to overcome. It would be a rather awfully boring level 7 encounter, mind you. You don't need five cave trolls; their regeneration and high HP mean that fighting five of them at once could get pretty tedious. Replace some with other level 7 monsters--not more Brutes, you don't need that many Brutes either, maybe some Artillery or Skirmishers (a pair of bloodseep demons, maybe).

    ... or replace some with level 6 monsters and an equal number with level 8 monsters. Or replace one with four minions, which are worth a quarter the XP of a normal monster. Or replace two with one Elite monster, which is as tough to handle as two normal monsters; or replace all of them with one Solo monster, which is as tough to handle as five regular ones.

    ... or whatever. You dig?
    Last edited by Inyssius Tor; 2010-04-16 at 03:52 PM. Reason: added a whole bunch on encounter design inside the spoiler box
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [4e] please stats for Arbaal the Undefeated

    Quote Originally Posted by Inyssius Tor View Post
    Another thing that's significantly different from 3e and probably WFRP is... in the 4e paradigm (which I suppose you could discard if you like, but this is the way the designers play it), the infantrymen of Lord Venturi's Sixth Regiment are not Level 1 Human Fighters using a lower point-buy than the players; the battle-casters of the Mystic Circle are not Level 5 Human Wizards with a slightly lower point-buy than the players; and the yuan-ti sorcerer-king who rules the Crimson Jungle is not an HD-advanced Yuan-ti Swordsage 4/Fighter 2/Sorcerer 9/Vampire Dedicat 3.

    Instead, the warrior is a creature named Human Infantryman (Soldier L1, 100 XP), the mage is a creature named Mystic Circle Battlecaster (Artillery L5, 200 XP), and the yuan-ti king is a creature named Yuan-Ti Sorcerer-King (Solo Controller L20, 14000 XP).

    They're all built exactly the same way (and the same way as, say, a basilisk); they all take approximately ten seconds of prep time before you're ready to use them, and less than half an hour to create in the first place; they all take up about a quarter-page of space (give or take); and they all look nothing like the PCs do.

    Like so:
    Spoiler
    Show


    This is a Level 7 Brute. It is worth 300 XP.

    If your players are level 5, a Level 7 encounter would be somewhat challenging for them; the sort of thing they'd spend some of their expendable resources on and would remember later, but not incredibly dangerous. Not a boss fight, maybe even not a midboss fight (depending on how good your players are); perhaps the first encounter in an adventure that you want to kick off with a bang.

    So, if you want a Level 7 encounter (suppose you do, for the sake of explanation), what you do is go over to the encounter-value-by-level table in the DMG. There, you see that--for a party of five players--the XP value of a level 7 encounter is 1500 XP.

    Therefore, five cave trolls--like the one presented above--would be a suitable level 7 encounter, and about as difficult as any level 7 encounter would be to overcome. It would be a rather awfully boring level 7 encounter, mind you. You don't need five cave trolls; their regeneration and high HP mean that fighting five of them at once could get pretty tedious. Replace some with other level 7 monsters--not more Brutes, you don't need that many Brutes either, maybe some Artillery or Skirmishers (a pair of bloodseep demons, maybe).

    ... or replace some with level 6 monsters and an equal number with level 8 monsters. Or replace one with four minions, which are worth a quarter the XP of a normal monster. Or replace two with one Elite monster, which is as tough to handle as two normal monsters; or replace all of them with one Solo monster, which is as tough to handle as five regular ones.

    ... or whatever. You dig?
    Yes, thanks.
    I've already run a dungeon with the DMG guidelines for encounters. It went smooth, and, as u say, it took 10 minutes to prepare, which is awesome.

    The thing that does not fit in my head... is that i've been used for so long to generate personally the most meaningful NPCs, that these summary cards look so... poor. Meh. I'll get used, I suppose.
    Quote Originally Posted by That Schubert Guy What Wrote that Vampire Article
    In the D&D game, so much of a character’s identity is expressed by the powers that character can use.

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    Default Re: [4e] please stats for Arbaal the Undefeated

    So in 4e, level is a metagame concept. Using level to describe things not in relation to PCs doesn't make much sense.

    You could use something like "XP value" to describe things not in relation to PCs (that doesn't work all that bad, but it isn't perfect).

    Imagine you chose to use XP value.

    Under the standard 4e assumptions, a level 1 PC is already a big damn hero. A group of 5 level 1 PCs could clear out an entire nest of kobolds or goblins that where terrorizing a community of 100 to 500 humans with a pretty high chance of success.

    The XP budget for a group of 5 level 1 PCs is 1000 XP -- that is a level 1 encounter for 5 PCs. If those 5 PCs where fully rested, they could probably take on an encounter 4 levels higher than then (a level 5 encounter), which would be a 2000 XP encounter, without everyone being dead, and at least some positional advantage.

    Encounters 5 or more levels higher than the party require massive luck to not be completely wiped out by, or serious tactical advantages.

    ---

    So, the next step. You start out at level 1: you are already big damn heroes.

    The 3 tiers of 4e are Heroic, Paragon and Epic.

    Old-school D&D plots work fine for Heroic characters -- clear dungeons, go on quests for sages, etc.

    By the time you hit Paragon level your characters are able to fight dozens of trained, mundane soldiers single-handed. By end paragon/early paragon, your characters should be able to fight small armies -- and by end epic (level 30), your characters as a group can kill gods (no namsy-pansy avatars -- actually walk up to a god in the center of their demise, and slay them dead, so they don't come back), and individually face down the entire military might of a mundane kingdom.

    That is the presumed power curve of 4e.

    If you use the XP scaling system, you might have trained guards being worth 125 XP each. A level 22 character can defeat a level 26 monster by burning lots of dailies -- which is worth 8000 XP. So a force consisting of 64 trained guards is something that a level 21 character can defeat all at once.

    If you go for a scaling system that is slightly steeper -- say, the gp scaling rate -- then the level 22 character could face down 2265 trained soldiers at once (say, 2265 archers = one level 26 artillery monster), and defeat them all. [ I prefer using the GP curve rather than the XP curve, as it generates a much funner epic level combat descriptions. ]

    So let's presume that a trained human soldier (not a crack troop, but equipped with armor, decent weapons, and does this professionally) is a level 2 normal monster.

    And lets use the GP curve:

    L 2 opponent: 1 solder
    L 7 opponent: Squad of 5 soldiers
    L 12 opponent: Patrol of 25 soldiers
    L 17 opponent: Company of 125 soldiers
    L 22 opponent: Army of 625 soldiers
    L 27 opponent: Horde of 3125 soldiers

    Now, how many trained soldiers should your king be able to defeat -- 125 at once? (remember, this isn't 125 taking their turns, but 125 of them rushing him all at the same time) Then he's a level 17 foe, or a level 12 elite, or a level 12 solo. Or, if you encounter him post-epic, a level 22 minion.

    Beginning PCs are almost match for a level 5 opponent (with luck), or 2-3 Soldiers.

    The next step is to build them when they are encountered. A level X opponent can be modeled as a ~level X-2 elite or a ~level X-5 solo, or a level X+4 minion (these values are approximate -- if you use XP based power scaling, the values are X-4, X-9 and X+8 respectively).


    Finally, note that all of this is just an attempt to impose emulationism on top of 4e mechanics. 4e mechanics don't have to be used this way. You seem to want to use a kind of power value -- 4e can be used with such a power value.

    But even if you do so, you should still convert encounters into the 4e pattern and do an XP budget on them to understand how hard they are.

    Sorry if this wasn't coherent enough.

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    Default Re: [4e] please stats for Arbaal the Undefeated

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    If those 5 PCs where fully rested, they could probably take on an encounter 4 levels higher than then (a level 5 encounter), which would be a 2000 XP encounter, without everyone being dead, and at least some positional advantage.
    Sure. It depends a bit on player skill, but a level+4 fight is very doable for a boss encounter. Level+4 means 20% higher attack and defense ratings, which can be overcome by a good party. It gets swingy at level 1-3 for lack of hit points, but a party of well-built level 11 characters could conceivably take down a level-17 threat.

    (incidentally, this is why certain high level monsters need the fiat rule that they are simply immune to all characters of level X or below)

    So a force consisting of 64 trained guards is something that a level 21 character can defeat all at once.
    But this doesn't work so well if you extrapolate. First, 4E wasn't meant to handle such large-scale combats. Second, strictly by the rules, a large enough group of soldiers can take out a much higher-level character simply by attrition. Of those 64 guards? Three per round will roll a 20, which will hit you. You cannot reliably get resistance against that for a long time, and you cannot take them out swiftly without massive area attacks. That means you will take damage each round, and given that PCs max out somewhere around 200 hit points, enough soldiers will kill you. If not the 64, then certainly the 625.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
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