DM new to psionics [3.5]

[Kol Korran]

if in your group your cleric is called Bruthus, please don't read this. yes, this is Meir.

i've tried to use the search engine, but "psionics" yield way too many results. so i apologize to everyone if this subject has been done to death many times before. thanks for the help anyone.

in about 2 months i'll start DMing a campaign. my campaign in the past used fairly restrictive material, since my players and myself didn't have many books. but we got more and more as time went by, and i wanted to include psionics in my next game.

so i started reading about them, and thought that one of the BBEG would make a terrific telepath in concept. but as i read deeper into the material (especially the powers themselves and their augumentations), i have come to think that they are quite more powerfull than lets say, the sorcerer or favoured soul. (not sure if the comparison is right, but since they are all spontaneous casters...) i'd like the playground's opinion on a few points:

1- power points: the sorcerer and favoured soul (if the spells are converted), have the upper hand here, with 116 PP compared to 88 of the psion (before ability boosts)

2- powers known (not considering 0 level spells): here the favoured soul wins (24 powers) compared to the psion (21) with the sorcerer far behind (15). more over, the psions gets more powers of higher levels than the rest do. however, the augumentation basically gives the psion new sorts of powers (i'm mainly talking about the "mass/ multiple targets" versions of powers. so he may come up better than the favoured soul.

3- versatility: here the psion really shines. all due to the augumentation. many of the spells in the other 2 classes don't scale well (some do, most don't), but the psion's augumentation makes sure that even low level powers can be usefull at higher levels. for example: psionic charm and mind thrust.

4- availability of powers: i've just checked out the telepath, so there might be things i'm missing, but quite a few powers seem to come early. like the improved version of charm, os the psionic suggestion and dominance (not to mention their mass versions).

5- from checking out the telepaths list, some powers are DARN good: Crisis of breath can easely take out of action many foes. mind thrust is a low level, high damage spells that can't be resisted (unless you're undead or construct). Hostile Empathic transfer delivers great damage while healing yourself considerably, Schism is really nice for extra powers manifested (even at 6 levels lower), and correspond is a super duper sending spell.

what exactly am i missing here? any advice on running these characters as BBEGs? as handling players who choose them?
thanks in advance,
Kol.

[Starbuck_II]

if in your group your cleric is called Bruthus, please don't read this. yes, this is Meir.

i've tried to use the search engine, but "psionics" yield way too many results. so i apologize to everyone if this subject has been done to death many times before. thanks for the help anyone.

in about 2 months i'll start DMing a campaign. my campaign in the past used fairly restrictive material, since my players and myself didn't have many books. but we got more and more as time went by, and i wanted to include psionics in my next game.

so i started reading about them, and thought that one of the BBEG would make a terrific telepath in concept. but as i read deeper into the material (especially the powers themselves and their augumentations), i have come to think that they are quite more powerfull than lets say, the sorcerer or favoured soul. (not sure if the comparison is right, but since they are all spontaneous casters...) i'd like the playground's opinion on a few points:

Partly this is due to Sorcerors being nerfed to have no class features.
Also Favored Souls are largely weaker than Wizards/Clerics since Clerics know every spell, but FS are limited. They make it up in being able to use spell exactly when want, but that still means less options.

1- power points: the sorcerer and favoured soul (if the spells are converted), have the upper hand here, with 116 PP compared to 88 of the psion (before ability boosts)

Don't forget spells auto scale.
Magic missile 1st lv gives 5 missiles. Fireball 3rd lv gives 10d6.
Energy ball (4th lv power) gives 10 only if augment.

2- powers known (not considering 0 level spells): here the favoured soul wins (24 powers) compared to the psion (21) with the sorcerer far behind (15). more over, the psions gets more powers of higher levels than the rest do. however, the augumentation basically gives the psion new sorts of powers (i'm mainly talking about the "mass/ multiple targets" versions of powers. so he may come up better than the favoured soul.

FS and Sorcerors have more variety.
Psions have to choose a discipline (and general list).
Non-Nomads can't fly. But every Sorceror can. FS's can air walk.

5- from checking out the telepaths list, some powers are DARN good: Crisis of breath can easely take out of action many foes. mind thrust is a low level, high damage spells that can't be resisted (unless you're undead or construct). Hostile Empathic transfer delivers great damage while healing yourself considerably, Schism is really nice for extra powers manifested (even at 6 levels lower), and correspond is a super duper sending spell.

what exactly am i missing here? any advice on running these characters as BBEGs? as handling players who choose them?
thanks in advance,
Kol.

Are you comparing Core vs Psionics?
There are some awesome spell compendruim, Complete Mage, etc spells that are better than Psionic versions.

Mind Thrust is save then nothing, not exactly a good idea. Like a save or die, but won't kill you.
But yeah, hostile Empath Transfer and schism are good.

Remember, you can't augment/spend power points higher than manifester lv. Harder to boost (caster lv easier).

So lv 1 can't use more than 1 power point.

[Yuki Akuma]

Psions really should be compared to Wizards, not Sorcerers.

Wilders are the psionic equivalent of Sorcerers.

Also, the fact that powers don't auto-scale is a big thing. Sure, a 20th level Psion can manifest his third-level powers 68 times (before factoring in bonus PP from high intelligence)... but for them to have full effectiveness, he'll be spending 20 PP on them, not 5. So he only gets 17 powers, all day.

The Wizard, meanwhile, has his third-level spells at full effectiveness for the cost of a third-level slot... And he has his 4th through 9th slots to play with, as well.

[Alvrick]

your asking for a comparison that has been around since psionics has come out. Really, you understand the system and that's the big reason many DMs won't allow it - they don't understand

there's a reason the big 5 are the big 5 and psionics isn't a part of that - it's much harder to break a psion than it is to break a sorcerer or wizard. Cleric is already broken straight from the get-go, and druid is close behind, with artificer coasting along for the ride. Psion, yes, is more powerful than your average fighter, but with even a few books outside of core your average wizard could be renamed batman.

I say go ahead and allow it. the class and book has some quirks to get used to and I guarantee that your players won't choose all the "right" powers their first time playing it

[Yuki Akuma]

The Big 5 is actually the Big 6. One of them is the Erudite and is psionic.

[Kol Korran]

Starbuck II: i haven't thought of the discipline part, or the scaling of some spells without needing to expand more power. this does tilts the scales in favour of the sorc and favored soul.

Yuki_Akuma: i compared to the spontenous casters since, well, the psion looked like one. i just figured there were 2 "sorcerer types" in the psionics.

Alvrick: i knew all that about the system, just didn't know where the Psion fit in, never had any exspereince with it, and that's why i posted this thread. my players aen't power gamers (bar one), so it's not much of an issue. i was more afraid of using it as a DM and finding it too powerfull.

thanks all for the help. much appreciated.

[Jack_Simth]

Short Answer:

By default, psions have a higher capacity to nova (burn all their resources at a high pace to good effect), but have less endurance (Arcane spells scale for free, 95+% of Psionic powers scale only if you spend more on them). In a single encounter, yes, the Psion can be stronger than the Sorcerer... except that the Sorcerer has a lot more additional sources to draw from (Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry, Craft Contingent Spell, the Celerity line, Arcane Fusion, Sanctum Spell, and so on) and so can ultimately make a stronger build.

Now, both have breakable points - there's a few tricks by which the Bestow Power power can result in recharging power points between battles (Earth Power from Races of Stone + an Amulet of Power Preservation, Midnight Augmentation, another Psion with Bestow Power + Affinity Field), but for the most part, psionics are generally better balanced.

[Ernir]

One thing on using a Psion as a BBEG - Psions are really dangerous when they are used as a boss encounter.

The PP reserve is a balancing factor for Psions. But they can "nova" like few others can. A psionic character spending as many PP as he can, every round, is hideously strong. And this is what a BBEG seeing his plans being foiled by some band of do-gooders would do.

[Yuki Akuma]

NPC psionicists should probably avoid using all their PP - maybe dock a few PP from them and say they spent them earlier, and have them avoid blasting through their entire reserve until it looks like they're losing.

It's not particularly realistic to have a psion start a fight fresh and spend everything he's got. PCs don't do that, why should NPCs?

[Starbuck_II]

Sorcerors and Favored Sould can Nova with that feat Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon:
Remember 2 spell slots used to cast 1 higher lv one.
So he can sacrifice 2 1st lv slots to cast an extra 2nd lv.

[Nero24200]

NPC psionicists should probably avoid using all their PP - maybe dock a few PP from them and say they spent them earlier, and have them avoid blasting through their entire reserve until it looks like they're losing.

It's not particularly realistic to have a psion start a fight fresh and spend everything he's got. PCs don't do that, why should NPCs?

Not sure about the SRD, but in the XPH it actually says that NPC Psionics should only have half the number of power points - to represent points already spent that day or points the character is likely to "save" to escape if needed.

[Lycanthromancer]

Not sure about the SRD, but in the XPH CPsi it actually says that NPC Psionics should only have half the number of power points - to represent points already spent that day or points the character is likely to "save" to escape if needed.

Fixed. That doesn't quite make up for the nerf to astral construct, but combined with the ardent and the soulbow it almost does.

Now we just need to work on making up for the divine mind, Illithid Heritage, and most of the other feats.

[Jack_Simth]

Sorcerors and Favored Sould can Nova with that feat Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon:
Remember 2 spell slots used to cast 1 higher lv one.
So he can sacrifice 2 1st lv slots to cast an extra 2nd lv.

Ah, they can burn lower-level spells for higher-level effects, but that is not, of itself, going Nova.

To go Nova is to abuse the action economy - generally, to get out lots of spells in a round. The Sorcerer casts one spell most rounds. Certain feats let the Sorcerer make use of Quicken Spell, which lets the Sorcerer get out two spells in a round. There's one spell that also lets the Sorcerer get out two low-level spells in a round. But that's basically the limit, and takes quite a few different sources to pull off.

The XPH+PHB+DMG Psion, however, can get Psionic Meditation, and recover focus as a move action - making Quicken Power usable every round (or nearly so). Schism lets the Psion have a second mind that can take standard actions. Fisson lets the Psion have a second body. So theoretically, a Psion that's high enough and spends the Expanded Knowledge feats to do it could:
Manifest Schism.
Manifest Fission (potentially having the Schism'd mind manifest it on the same turn)

Thereafter, there's two Psions. Both of which have Schismed minds until the Fission expires, and both of which have swift actions available. Which basically means six power per round. Oh yes, and as manifesting Temporal Acceleration is a Swift action, the Psion can do this at the start of the turn, and still have Standard actions available to blast with once the Temporal Acceleration ends.

Now, there are ways for the Sorcerer to do this (Sanctum Spell to reduce the level of Arcane Fusion for purposes of fitting it in as the primary for Arcane Fusion), but that takes many more sources.

[Yora]

What Lycan is saying is "better stay away from Complete Psionic until you're very familiar with psionics and know what parts of CPsi should rather not be used."

[Lycanthromancer]

What Lycan is saying is "better stay away from Complete Psionic until you're very familiar with psionics and know what parts of CPsi should rather not be used."

Pretty much. There's some that is absolutely awesome; I suspect that those parts are what Bruce Cordell worked on directly. The rest is crap.

[Zaq]

Psions and other full manifesters, barring a few specific dirty tricks (which are no more inherently dirty than the dirty tricks other classes can pull), are less powerful than arcane and divine full casters (well, the good ones, anyway. Warmages and Healers can go cry in the corner). They do not "outshine" the wizard or the cleric (or the sorcerer or the favored soul) when played at equal levels of optimization.

However, they're still essentially full casters, and are as a result head and shoulders more powerful than non-magic or less-magic types.

If you allow wizards and druids, you should allow psions, because they're really no worse (and are indeed generally more restrained). However, if you ban or nerf the top-tier classes because they're too powerful, you should do the same for manifesters, because they're the next best thing.

In other words, psionics is not overpowered when compared to "normal" magic. It is overpowered when compared to non-magic, because almost any flavor of magic in D&D is more powerful than almost any flavor of non-magic. If the psion is in a group with a cleric, a sorcerer, and an artificer, he'll fit right in. If he's in a group with a warblade, an incarnate, a rogue, and a knight, he'll seem crazy overpowered for the same reason that a sorcerer would in the same group. Even wilders, who are almost laughably limited, can totally overshadow the non-casters in a group without too much optimization (an Astral Construct cast at, oh, +3 or +4 ML is downright terrifying when used judiciously, and never really goes out of style).

Psionics is very powerful. It is not inherently overpowered, but you still need to be careful that everyone in the party feels like they have something to do.

[Ecalsneerg]

The Big 5 is actually the Big 6. One of them is the Erudite and is psionic.

Isn't that specifically the Spell-to-Power Erudite?

[Nero24200]

The XPH+PHB+DMG Psion, however, can get Psionic Meditation, and recover focus as a move action - making Quicken Power usable every round (or nearly so). Schism lets the Psion have a second mind that can take standard actions. Fisson lets the Psion have a second body. So theoretically, a Psion that's high enough and spends the Expanded Knowledge feats to do it could:
Manifest Schism.
Manifest Fission (potentially having the Schism'd mind manifest it on the same turn)

Thereafter, there's two Psions. Both of which have Schismed minds until the Fission expires, and both of which have swift actions available. Which basically means six power per round. Oh yes, and as manifesting Temporal Acceleration is a Swift action, the Psion can do this at the start of the turn, and still have Standard actions available to blast with once the Temporal Acceleration ends.

Six powers per round...well firstly

The duplicate created via Fission doesn't benifit from Schism

...Powers, spells, or other effects affecting you when you manifest this power do not transfer to your duplicate.

So that counts it down to five powers.

So those five powers require you to be using the Quicken Power feat, which increases the power's cost by 6 points. Using Schism lowers your Effective Manifester level by 6 points and can only take standard actions (and therfore gains no advantage from quickened powers), reducing this power per round number to 4.

So in the end we have
1 Power at full manifesting
1 Power at manifester level -6 (Quickened Power, though costs full points)
1 Schism Power at manifester level -6
1 Fission Power at manifester level -2

Fission requiring you to be either an Egoist or be level 15 and spend a feat
Schisim requiring you to be either a Telepath or level 9 and spend a feat.

So we're looking at an investment of at least 3 Feats (Psionic Mediitation, Quicken Power and Expanded Knowledge at least once), and in return you gain the capacity to spend (assuming level 15 since that is the minimum you can gain Fission) 15+15+9+13 points per round, or 52 points per round.
This grants 1 effective 7th level power, 1 effective 6th level power and two effective 5th level powers per round.

On the other hand, a wizard could just use a metamagic rod of quicken to cast two 7th level powers per round, without having to spend a single feat or specialise in any way.

The Nova isn't exactly the best tactic to use. Even if it is, it's not like Psionics have a well-defended niche there. In fact, one of the main arguments in favour of the 15 minute adventuring day is that spellcasters (note, not psions) are able to control the flow of the adventure, being able to throw spells out as they feel like it with little worry of running out.

At least with Psions, novaing actually has a disadvantage in that you'll run out.