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    Default Tome of fiends power level

    I am looking at the fiend classes from the tome of fiends wiki entry and am wondering just how strong they are compared to the existing dnd classes.

    http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_...e#Base_Classes

    The brute fiend stands out. Though it is only 10 lvs long and has poor bab, it promises to more than compensate with impressive physical stat mods. You can get up to +5 str from bonus attribute boosts, and being huge grants another +16str. You also get +13NA over 10 lvs, and the fiendish feats can nab you some really nifty abilities such as constrict.

    Of course, this is just at first glance, and I have not had the opportunity to actually play them yet, so it is possible I am overestimating its usefulness?

    What are your experiences?

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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    General rule of the D&D Wiki, is that either its vastly over powered or vastly under powered with very little wiggle room in between. Some comments and over all thoughts I suppose.

    True Fiend: For starters, the thing that gets me here is a True Fiend dosn't have to be Evil. Thats just...silly. As for balance, the True Fiend is anything but. All good saves. An energy immunity at level one...Full B.A.B. The Spheres alone are rather powerful. Add on top of that Epic DR...before epic levels mind you. No, True Fiend isn't Balanced what so ever.

    Fiendish Brute: Not even a full class. Not all that balanced either really. As in, way under powered.

    Conduit of the Planes: Again, not a base class. Again, not balanced what so ever, though the opposite of the above. Free immunities at level 1 isn't balanced. Petitioner skills at the level you get it are a complete joke. This class is wonderful for a 1 level dip, espcially for fighters and other melee classes because you lose -nothing- in doing so.

    Summoner: The fact he dosn't get Gate is a good thing. Then again, he -can- get it with advanced learning. So, this class has the ability with good spell picks to be unbalanced. The Summon ability paired with the level 20 ability also makes this class utterly unbalanced with or without gate.
    Last edited by Innis Cabal; 2010-04-18 at 05:40 AM.
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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    I am looking at the fiend classes from the tome of fiends wiki entry and am wondering just how strong they are compared to the existing dnd classes.

    http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_...e#Base_Classes

    The brute fiend stands out. Though it is only 10 lvs long and has poor bab, it promises to more than compensate with impressive physical stat mods. You can get up to +5 str from bonus attribute boosts, and being huge grants another +16str. You also get +13NA over 10 lvs, and the fiendish feats can nab you some really nifty abilities such as constrict.

    Of course, this is just at first glance, and I have not had the opportunity to actually play them yet, so it is possible I am overestimating its usefulness?

    What are your experiences?
    The Tome series are very powerful in general. While I like them, use with caution.

    Also glad to see D&DWiki's working again. That was annoying as hell yesterday, the one day I actually needed the damn site.
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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    Quote Originally Posted by Innis Cabal View Post
    General rule of the D&D Wiki homebrew, is that either its vastly over powered or vastly under powered with very little wiggle room in between.
    Fixed that. ;D

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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    Quote Originally Posted by Innis Cabal View Post
    General rule of the D&D Wiki, is that either its vastly over powered or vastly under powered with very little wiggle room in between. Some comments and over all thoughts I suppose.

    True Fiend: For starters, the thing that gets me here is a True Fiend dosn't have to be Evil. Thats just...silly. As for balance, the True Fiend is anything but. All good saves. An energy immunity at level one...Full B.A.B. The Spheres alone are rather powerful. Add on top of that Epic DR...before epic levels mind you. No, True Fiend isn't Balanced what so ever.

    Fiendish Brute: Not even a full class. Not all that balanced either really. As in, way under powered.

    Conduit of the Planes: Again, not a base class. Again, not balanced what so ever, though the opposite of the above. Free immunities at level 1 isn't balanced. Petitioner skills at the level you get it are a complete joke. This class is wonderful for a 1 level dip, espcially for fighters and other melee classes because you lose -nothing- in doing so.

    Summoner: The fact he dosn't get Gate is a good thing. Then again, he -can- get it with advanced learning. So, this class has the ability with good spell picks to be unbalanced. The Summon ability paired with the level 20 ability also makes this class utterly unbalanced with or without gate.
    The Tome classes are supposed to be balanced against optimised wizards (if you look at the individual pages for the classes you'll see Balance level: Wizard). They also bring with them some changes to the system. I think Races of War has the explanation for why some of the base classes are less than 20 levels long.

    If you think Fiendish Brute is underpowered that's because you haven't seen the overhaul of feats (though it is rated as Rogue-level rather than Wizard-level). Fighter feats in particular become ridiculously powerful, granting multiple potent benefits as you level.

    Tome is generally regarded as quite balanced, but only if the material from all the Tomes is being used, and classes from outside it are high-tier and highly optimised.
    Last edited by Prime32; 2010-04-18 at 06:03 AM.

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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    The Tome classes are supposed to be balanced against optimised wizards (if you look at the individual pages for the classes you'll see Balance level: Wizard).
    Optimised to the max wizards. The whole material assumes you're doing efreeti-chain bidding as the base power level. So really, anything weaker than pun-pun goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    They also bring with them some changes to the system. I think Races of War has the explanation for why some of the base classes are less than 20 levels long.
    1-They claim very few people will ever reach 20 level anyway so no point in making full 20 levels.
    2-Even if you do reach level 20, you'll have prcd long ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    If you think Fiendish Brute is underpowered that's because you haven't seen the overhaul of feats. Fighter feats in particular become ridiculously powerful, granting multiple potent benefits as you level.
    They also make the game even more rocket tag, as they easily allow melees to one-shot anything they can hit. Their weapon finesse alone (almost) makes strenght irrelevant, if it wasn't for the fact that it's easier to get big strenght with the size increase feats and the stun lock one that is based on strenght.

    Anyway, I'll point again that the Tome series power level is based on the players going (almost) full power in cheese in such a scale that even Tippyverse pales in comparison. Only pun-pun is considered too powerfull.

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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    So I take it a straight true fiend would be more powerful than a basic melee PC, such as a barb or fighter? What about martial adepts?

    I haven't seen the other tome entries, so I am evaluating this book based solely on the material found inside.

    Huge at lv10 is really sweet. Is it really that game breaking?

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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Anyway, I'll point again that the Tome series power level is based on the players going (almost) full power in cheese in such a scale that even Tippyverse pales in comparison. Only pun-pun is considered too powerfull.
    So basically the tome series is a worthless mess unusable in any real game.

    Certainly matches what I read.

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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    So I take it a straight true fiend would be more powerful than a basic melee PC, such as a barb or fighter? What about martial adepts?
    Not even they stand a chance. Tome samurai is insta-gibing enemies with each hit(no save) at level 14.

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    I haven't seen the other tome entries, so I am evaluating this book based solely on the material found inside.

    Huge at lv10 is really sweet. Is it really that game breaking?
    By itself no.

    When you add the +16 str, +8 con and the remaining goodies along with it, well...

    Myou:
    Well, it's not completely worhtless. It has an enjoyable humor in their reasonings, and here and there one finds interesting and original ideas that with some(lots of) tweaking could be adapted to your average game sucessfully. Feats/armor scaling by Bab for example I find quite cool, except that their sugested scaling grow way too fast. A feat that would just increase your size whitout granting ability bonus wouldn't be so bad either if it demanded medium-high Bab.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-04-18 at 07:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    I like the way they do Monster PC's in Races of war, anyone ever tried using it?
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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Not even they stand a chance. Tome samurai is insta-gibing enemies with each hit(no save) at level 12.
    I just find it awesome how they can sunder spells. "Nothing I cannot cut" indeed.

    I've seen a few games where Tome material has been used successfully, but it requires a skilled DM. One game I saw had the PCs fighting goblins. A highly organised goblin force with buffing from bards and led by a barghest crusader. One of a town's guards was a dragonwrought kobold with levels in classes from Book of Exalted Deeds.
    Last edited by Prime32; 2010-04-18 at 07:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    The Tome stuff takes out chain-binding efreet armies, actually. I've personally played a grey elf generalist, the only non-core part of my character that actually mattered was the Sculpt Spell metamagic feat. I had some other non-PHB stuff, but it was just for RP or something that directly equates to something already in the PHB; and had many a discussion to prove any of encounters would've gone down the same way if I wasn't allowed some PrC or item (was never allowed non-PHB spell, so don't know there).

    I still crushed things without using 'cheesey tricks'. I buffed myself, commanded the biggest and baddest corpses I could animate, I threw battlefield control out the wazoo. The worst thing I ever did was the one time where I used lesser planar binding thrice before a huge upcoming boss fight to get archons on our side (mainly for the auras).

    A "Tome level" wizard is not some kind of CharOp abomination. It's a wizard that makes sound tactical decisions and preparation while following basic optimization rules (don't multiclass, don't make Int secondary, etc).

    I've run a one-shot 12th adventure under the same set of house rules while sticking to the CR rules for what should be a standard encounter at their level, and I got a standard encounter at their level, reliably. I personally ran a campaign from 1st to 9th level using all of the Tome rules. They were challenged the entire way through. The only real limitation is that you need to be aware that certain monster types phase out harshly; a party of paladins will never fear mummies, a party of tanks will never fear mooks (even non-solo bruisers can be frustrating), a party of glass cannons only fear an ambush, etc.

    As an aside. I flat-out do not run high level games. Rocket Launcher Tag requires too much brainpower as a DM without enough reward for anyone. All the Tome rules does is arm all of the non-casters with rockets so they aren't left in the dust.
    Last edited by Mentok; 2010-04-18 at 08:19 AM.

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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    I just find it awesome how they can sunder spells. "Nothing I cannot cut" indeed.
    Well, that's the original part, but the fact that it just flat-out ignores all magic defenses is the overpowered part. If there were some checks/saves involved it would be inbalanced, otherwise anything that gets whitin 10 foot just auto-dies.

    Don't forget he also can parry magic, and later reflect it with easily done rolls!

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    I've seen a few games where Tome material has been used successfully, but it requires a skilled DM. One game I saw had the PCs fighting goblins. A highly organised goblin force with buffing from bards and led by a barghest crusader. One of a town's guards was a dragonwrought kobold with levels in classes from Book of Exalted Deeds.
    Hmm, what were exactly the Tome rules used there? Like I pointed out, Tome stuff can be usefull as long as you tweak it with great care, and in a case-by-case basis.

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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    So basically the tome series is a worthless mess unusable in any real game.

    Certainly matches what I read.
    People are exaggerating about the power level. Most of the stuff is probably about tier 2 or very high tier 3. Although you should realize its meant to be more than just a source book. You wouldn't use Iron Heroes material in a normal game - it's balanced using different metrics and generally with itself.

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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinydwarfman View Post
    People are exaggerating about the power level. Most of the stuff is probably about tier 2 or very high tier 3.
    Their warlock gets at-will time stop. That's high tier 2 by itself, and then it has infinite scrolls of everything pushing him up to tier 1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinydwarfman View Post
    Although you should realize its meant to be more than just a source book. You wouldn't use Iron Heroes material in a normal game - it's balanced using different metrics and generally with itself.
    Considering that those metrics are "everybody gets infinite items of 15.000 or less! Oh, and either at-will 9th level spells or no-save, just die!", well, sure, it's balanced by the fact that nothing is balanced.

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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Their warlock gets at-will time stop. That's high tier 2 by itself, and then it has infinite scrolls of everything pushing him up to tier 1.



    Considering that those metrics are "everybody gets infinite items of 15.000 or less! Oh, and either at-will 9th level spells or no-save, just die!", well, sure, it's balanced by the fact that nothing is balanced.
    I'm paying more attention to lower levels, but yes, some sphere spells are waaay too good. Force cage at will with an investment of 3 spheres? Yes please. But whats this about infinite scrolls of everything? I must have missed that. I only skimmed the Tome general rules, so infinite items are probably in there.

    Yes, I have to say that unfortunately, I really don't like their high level game. Although when you are playing rocket tag, and everybody has rockets, that is balance. You, I and many other people may not like that, but it's a different style of game.

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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    Infinite scrolls comes from a few things:

    1) Core D&D 3.5 already gives infinite everything. Decrying the Tomes for being inferior for failing to change something is pretty silly.

    2) Tome recognizes this, and changes the way wish works to limit the already existing ability to only 15,000gp.

    3) The Book of Gears, the item fix for the Tomes, was never completed. Part of it was going to be a limit on the amount of active consumable items you could be using, but they never got around to finishing it.

    So bottom line, anyone who resorts to "infinite scrolls makes Tomes too powerful" is just wrong.

    They are pointing to something that is true in 3.5, is against the express intent of the Tome's desginers, and isn't actually a feature of the Tomes at all, or wouldn't be once they became completed work.

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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    Quote Originally Posted by Penitent View Post
    1) Core D&D 3.5 already gives infinite everything. Decrying the Tomes for being inferior for failing to change something is pretty silly.
    Altough cheese indeed allows you to do that, it was a mistake, and never intended to be used, and most DMs out there will fix that detail if the players try to use it.

    Tome rules assume that infinite stuff is to be used, wich goes against most people's style of play out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Penitent View Post
    2) Tome recognizes this, and changes the way wish works to limit the already existing ability to only 15,000gp.
    Wich funnilly enough it's how it worked back in 3.0, so not even a tome rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by Penitent View Post
    3) The Book of Gears, the item fix for the Tomes, was never completed. Part of it was going to be a limit on the amount of active consumable items you could be using, but they never got around to finishing it.
    Wich is a sign of very bad design. Instead of just claiming "Wish SLA costs exp, point", they allow infinite item spam, and don't bother to properly deal with the consequences of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Penitent View Post
    So bottom line, anyone who resorts to "infinite scrolls makes Tomes too powerful" is just wrong.

    They are pointing to something that is true in 3.5, is against the express intent of the Tome's desginers, and isn't actually a feature of the Tomes at all, or wouldn't be once they became completed work.
    On the contrary, the tome rules insist that cities with golden walls and minor magic items everywhere should exist whitout the players having a temptation to take everything that isn't nailed down, because they already have piles of minor magic items in their portable holes. You kill the dragon and then leave behind it's horde as useless junk that would only weigth you down.

    Only items above 15.000 are actualy worth anything in Tome rules, everything else is spare change.

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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Which funnily enough it's how it worked back in 3.0, so not even a tome rule.
    So what you are saying, is that If I see that X is better than Y. And then change my rules to use X instead of Y, that my rules are now inferior to the previous rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Which is a sign of very bad design. Instead of just claiming "Wish SLA costs exp, point", they allow infinite item spam, and don't bother to properly deal with the consequences of this.
    1) Maybe they want some of the things that the Wish SLA not costing XP gives them? You know, like level 13+ characters not being able to turn gold into power.

    2) Except they did properly deal with the consequences, or were going to, but did not complete the project due to real life concerns. Are you seriously saying that if I provide a 90% rewrite of 3.5 D&D that is better in every way, but then get hit by a car and leave one issue unsolved, therefore all my work is a terrible negative not as good as the thing that is worse than it because I haven't fixed one problem that it already had and never will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    On the contrary, the tome rules insist that cities with golden walls and minor magic items everywhere should exist without the players having a temptation to take everything that isn't nailed down, because they already have piles of minor magic items in their portable holes. You kill the dragon and then leave behind it's horde as useless junk that would only weight you down.

    Only items above 15.000 are actually worth anything in Tome rules, everything else is spare change.
    Yes, that's design intent, and has nothing to do with the power presented by infinite scrolls.

    So 1) Yes, if the PCs come across the golden walls of Azurdan, it just means "Hey man Azurdan is a pretty powerful place." and the PCs have no desire or intention of stripping the golden walls to be sold in other cities/the market in order to turn it into magical items that power them up.

    Likewise, the PCs can themselves actually just have houses made of gold, and not have to sacrifice character power to do so, like you do under WBL rules.

    2) Since your problem is a conceptual one with the goals and has nothing to do with the power of scrolls, since that was going to be fixed, do you agree that the infinite minor items of 15,000gp or less for level 11+ PCs has no effect whatsoever on the actual power level of the Tomes?

    Bottom line, The Tomes nerf most of the problematic issues of the game:

    Calling Magic? Nerfed.
    Wishes? Nerfed.
    Polymorphing? Nerfed.
    Teleporting/Scrying? Nerfed.

    Sure, you can totally use Time Stop at will at level 19. Of course, that has no effect at all before level 19, and you probably don't have the types of spells you need to actually take advantage of that.

    Compared to what Wizards can already do at 17, it's not that impressive.

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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Hmm, what were exactly the Tome rules used there? Like I pointed out, Tome stuff can be usefull as long as you tweak it with great care, and in a case-by-case basis.
    All of them, used by both the players and the DM. It's been working fine so far.

    Side-note: the objective of this campaign is to travel back in time and prevent the ascension of Pun-Pun.
    Last edited by Prime32; 2010-04-18 at 03:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    Quote Originally Posted by Penitent View Post
    So what you are saying, is that If I see that X is better than Y. And then change my rules to use X instead of Y, that my rules are now inferior to the previous rules?
    If you also saw Z that's superior to both X and Y, then it's not much of an improvement really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Penitent View Post
    1) Maybe they want some of the things that the Wish SLA not costing XP gives them? You know, like level 13+ characters not being able to turn gold into power.
    So they want broken wish after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Penitent View Post
    2) Except they did properly deal with the consequences, or were going to, but did not complete the project due to real life concerns. Are you seriously saying that if I provide a 90% rewrite of 3.5 D&D that is better in every way, but then get hit by a car and leave one issue unsolved, therefore all my work is a terrible negative not as good as the thing that is worse than it because I haven't fixed one problem that it already had and never will?
    Except that it isn't better in every way. It's filled with holes and for every problem they claim they fixed two new arise, resulting in a super rocket tag enviroment that may appeal to some few player's tastes, but that's it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Penitent View Post
    So 1) Yes, if the PCs come across the golden walls of Azurdan, it just means "Hey man Azurdan is a pretty powerful place." and the PCs have no desire or intention of stripping the golden walls to be sold in other cities/the market in order to turn it into magical items that power them up.
    So the PCs are suposed to be cowards wich aren't willing to take risks for reward? Are they suposed to be bullies that only prey on those clearly weaker than themselves?

    Quote Originally Posted by Penitent View Post
    Likewise, the PCs can themselves actually just have houses made of gold, and not have to sacrifice character power to do so, like you do under WBL rules.
    And what's the point of having a golden house in Tomeverse again? It's poisonous, it's weak as an actual construction material, and it's now completely worthless. It would be like having a house of mud.

    Quote Originally Posted by Penitent View Post
    2) Since your problem is a conceptual one with the goals and has nothing to do with the power of scrolls, since that was going to be fixed, do you agree that the infinite minor items of 15,000gp or less for level 11+ PCs has no effect whatsoever on the actual power level of the Tomes?
    Nope. Infinite minor items mean infinite power basically if you half know what you're doing, and the setting specifically tells you to use them instead of just being an obscure loophole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Penitent View Post
    Bottom line, The Tomes nerf most of the problematic issues of the game:

    Calling Magic? Nerfed.
    Not even touched last time I checked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Penitent View Post
    Wishes? Nerfed.
    They're now at will spells available at character level 7. I wouldn't call that exactly a nerf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Penitent View Post
    Polymorphing? Nerfed.
    Far from it, just abuseable on other ways. Instead of looking for underHD monster you just look for underCRd monsters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Penitent View Post
    Teleporting/Scrying? Nerfed.
    It already worked that way before. RAW teleport doesn't work for locations of great power, wich can be wherever the DM damn pleases. Some Wotc adventure modules state that one inch of lead will block scrying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Penitent View Post
    Sure, you can totally use Time Stop at will at level 19. Of course, that has no effect at all before level 19, and you probably don't have the types of spells you need to actually take advantage of that.
    You don't need to. Just a little imagination and patience.

    Prime32:Allow me to point out your DM states he's using several houserules that help prevent a good deal of the Tome stuff abuse. Mainly:
    -Can't cast spells from scrolls.
    -Can't wish for partially charged items
    -Can only use one candle of invocation per character during their entire existence.
    -Anything that would allow you to gain an economic advantage over nonspellcasting teammates is thrown out of the window.
    -You still need to buy items of 15.000 GP or less the old way.
    -His own polymorph rules.

    So those houserules indeed block most of the minor item spam potential (and also go directly against the design intention of the Tome creator but that's more than fine), so it should indeed work fine.

    Not to mention the not-so-insignificant detail that all magic seems to be wild-surged wich is a great hit on casters when all their spells have a 25% chance of failing outright.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-04-20 at 04:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    So the PCs are suposed to be cowards wich aren't willing to take risks for reward? Are they suposed to be bullies that only prey on those clearly weaker than themselves?
    No, they're just no longer poor excuses for archaeologists would would melt down king tut's sarcophagus if it gave them a few more magic baubles.

    Look, have you read anything by SHARK on enworld? It's like that.

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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2010-04-20 at 08:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    Quote Originally Posted by Penitent View Post
    ...you would have to find something that is tremendously under CRed to abuse it at all...
    Adamantine Horror comes to mind.

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    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    Quote Originally Posted by sofawall View Post
    Adamantine Horror comes to mind.
    Yes it does.

    But of course, The fact that a Wizard can turn into an Adamantium Horror at level 12 and be able to MD people depends on the Adamantium Horror MD the Wizard three levels ago.

    You can't use Under CRed monsters without the DM being able to use them too.

    That's why Character replacement is better than addition. A chronotyryn is really bad when added to a Wizard, even if the DM brings out Chronotyryns. But if the using an under Cred monster encourages the DM to use it back...

    You actually want to avoid it.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Banned
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2010

    Default Re: Tome of fiends power level

    Oh look, my entire post that addressed 6+ different topics that didn't break any rules except apparently in one sentence was deleted because of one single sentence in which I implied that you were not informed on a matter you were discussing.

    In further news GITP still uses the ban hammer to prevent legitimate discussion by making it against the rules to ask people to be informed.

    At the risk of total banning for explicitly breaking the forum rules with a repeat offense of continuing to ask you to be informed:

    Oslecamo: Would you please do me a favor and reread (or read for the first time) the entirety of the Tome section on calling spells before you continue to comment on the balance of calling magic in the Tomes.
    Last edited by Penitent; 2010-04-20 at 09:32 AM.

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