The challenge... Core Wizard vs. Fighter

[The Cat Goddess]

Okay, basically I told one of my players that a Player's Handbook only Wizard above a certain level will pretty-much always beat a Player's Handbook only Fighter of the same level.

He claimed (insanely, IMHO) that the two classes were equally balanced.

So, the challenge became... I make a level 13 Wizard, he makes a level 13 Fighter. 110,000gp worth of items, gear only from DMG & PH.

Assuming no Surprise Round.
Assuming no Preparation rounds (no casting spells before the fight starts).

One battle in a small arena (total distance, 70 feet across)
One battle in a large arena (total distance, 200 feet across)
One battle in open area (big grassland, 1000+ feet across)

What are my best spell options? I'm thinking Teleport for the larger area battles, to give myself at least 2 (or more) rounds of him doing nothing but closing the distance. Melf's Acid Arrow for stacking damage.

Is it worth getting the Quicken Spell Feat?

[Octopus Jack]

Empowered/split Enervation is your friend, stack negative levels on him

[Volthawk]

Forcecage? Unless your friend has a way of casting disintegration or disjunction, or has either a rod of cancellation or a sphere of annihilation, he's stuck, and if you pick the barred cage option, you can still blast him.

Also, Mind Fog. Your friend can't have that good Will saves (he only has base +4), so a good -10 on will saves will make him so much more vulnerable.

[Octopus Jack]

Fly for all the fights would be useful to stay out of reach,
simple things like hold person can buy you time as can wall of force if you need it. If you mind fog him he will be even more unlikly to pass his will saves, then you could just dominate him and turn him into your mind slave for a while it can effectivly give you 13days preperation time

[Kobold-Bard]

Empowered/split Enervation is your friend, stack negative levels on him

Forcecage? Unless your friend has a way of casting disintegration or disjunction, or has either a rod of cancellation or a sphere of annihilation, he's stuck, and if you pick the barred cage option, you can still blast him....

Basically this. The chance he'll bring a good bow is very low, so you can feel free to sit there and mock him for a while before Enervating him into a new undead minion.

---------------
Alternatively use Invisibility and just Summon a load of Monsters. Cackle maniacally every now and again as they were his HP down to negatives, then walk over to him and kick his character in the nuts until he hits -10.

[Volthawk]

Summon Monster. If you use Summon Monster V, you get bearded devils, which have attacks than continue to damage him. If you use one of your 7th level slots, you get 2 to 5 of these guys. They also can rage and teleport.

Or you can get an Invisible Stalker. They kick ass.

Or summon a Babau, then cast Greater Invisibility. Every one of it's attacks will be a sneak attack..

[HunterOfJello]

Specialize in conjuration and grab Abjurant Jaunt which lets you teleport 10 as an immediate action with times per day equal to your int mod (4 or 5).

That will stop his first 4 to 5 attacks from hitting you under any circumstance. Now you have 4 or 5 spells to cast. You should be able to kill him in 2 easy.

~~~

You could also open with low level spells just to mess with him. Mirror Image, Darkness, Glitterdust, and web are all useful Web.
Target his will and reflex saves. He'll probably have less than +6 to will total.

True Strike + Any decent damage spell should kill him easily.

[Volthawk]

Specialize in conjuration and grab Abjurant Jaunt which lets you teleport 10 as an immediate action with times per day equal to your int mod (4 or 5).

That will stop his first 4 to 5 attacks from hitting you under any circumstance. Now you have 4 or 5 spells to cast. You should be able to kill him in 2 easy.

Player's Handbook only/core. I don't think that would include PHBII, despite the name.

[Runestar]

Limited wish to force a -7 penalty to his next save, then Dominate Person? He should succeed only on a natural 20.

If he can't fly, then use flight to stay out of range, with wind wall to stymie ranged attacks.

[Kobold-Bard]

Fly, use Telekinesis to disarm him, Hold Person, beat him to death with his own weapon

Enervation, Crushing Despair etc. to drop his Fort Save. Cast Flesh to Stone. Decorate your garden with his staue-corpse.
Not the most efficient, but fun nontheless.

[Volthawk]

Limited wish to force a -7 penalty to his next save, then Dominate Person? He should succeed only on a natural 20.

If he can't fly, then use flight to stay out of range, with wind wall to stymie ranged attacks.

Needs Mind Fog as well.

And Crushing Despair.

[Runestar]

Needs Mind Fog as well.

And Crushing Despair.

I find mind fog quite lame. He needs to fail a will save to get a penalty to his subsequent will saves. Why not just target him with a will-save effect instead if you believe he will fail anyways?

[Volthawk]

A new 5-step plan:

1) Lower his will saves (not entirely necessary, but it helps)

2) Feeblemind him. If he saves, cast again.

3) Through Spectral Hand, cast Touch of Idiocy. If he saves, cast again.

4) Coup de grace his unconscious body as many times as necessary to kill him.

5) Win.

[PhoenixRivers]

Contingency (Dimension Door) is a good one for making him come to you. Directly vertical. 920 feet is a long way to cover.

After that, let's focus on things he can't resist.

Elemental damage is easy to block. Focus on non-elemental things. ForceCage + Cloudkill is good... Especially if you can Dimensional Anchor him.

Invisibility + Staying over 120 feet away + Magic Missiles could do it, in theory.

(Magic Missiles: 17.5 average damage)
(Empowered MM's: 26.25 average damage)
(Maximized MM's: 30 damage)
(Max/Empowered MM's: 38.75 damage)

So: Level 1 slots = 17.5 damage
Level 2 slots = 17.5 damage
Level 3 slots = 26.25 damage (save space for Fly and haste)
Level 4 slots = 30 damage (Save space for Greater invisibility)
Level 5 slots = 30 damage
Level 6 slots = 38.75 damage
Level 7 slots = 38.75 damage

Assuming Specialist Evoker, using ONLY bonus slots: 208.25 average damage.

Average HP of a level 13 Fighter:
10+Con (Level 1)
5.5+Con (Level 2-13)
76 + (13xCon)

To survive just your BONUS slots, he'll need a Con modifier of +11.

Keep a way to see in smoke (Wind spells are good), a way to protect from Archery (Invisibility + Range is good)...

And embarass him with Magic Missiles.

[HunterOfJello]

1. Dominate Person
2. "Go Stand in that Corner"
3. Set up a bunch of explosive and dangerous runes.
4. "Walk over here"


~~~


I'd be good to look for spells that ignore spell resistance. He'll probably have a bunch.

[Mastikator]

The fighter must use his gold to buy a potion of anti magic field, and throwing weapons that hit the caster with greater dispel magic (since the anti-magic field only affects the magical throwing weapons while inside the field), and the wizard has no chance to disable the anti-magic field. And any buff will wear off when the throwing weapons hit him. He won't really stand a chance against the fighter without his spells.

Basically, whoever wins initiative wins the fight.

[Anterean]

I am a big fan of invisibility.

Remember it only breaks if you directly attack your opponent. Thus it allows you to cast your preparation spells, summon a few monsters, heck if your "arena" allows for it you could even blast pillars and such to make them fall over your opponent.

Is this super efficient ? Nah but who doesn´t like toying with an inferior opponent ?

[Kobold-Bard]

The fighter must use his gold to buy a potion of anti magic field, and throwing weapons that hit the caster with greater dispel magic (since the anti-magic field only affects the magical throwing weapons while inside the field), and the wizard has no chance to disable the anti-magic field. And any buff will wear off when the throwing weapons hit him. He won't really stand a chance against the fighter without his spells.

Basically, whoever wins initiative wins the fight.

Alternatively the Wizard fills the arena with Cloudkill and Dimension Door's away, then watches as the Fighter's Con is slowly whittled away.

[HunterOfJello]

Boots, Winged are 15000gp and will let you fly for 15 minutes total
Gloves of Arrow Snaring for 4000gp could be useful



a Lavender and green Ioun Stone or rod of absorption could be used by him against single target spells

[Emmerask]

The fighter must use his gold to buy a potion of anti magic field, and throwing weapons that hit the caster with greater dispel magic (since the anti-magic field only affects the magical throwing weapons while inside the field), and the wizard has no chance to disable the anti-magic field. And any buff will wear off when the throwing weapons hit him. He won't really stand a chance against the fighter without his spells.

Basically, whoever wins initiative wins the fight.

Afaik there is no antimagic field potion using phb/dmg only (not even sure if there is one outside ^^)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm

not in the list of potions available

[Mastikator]

Is there any way you can get a anti-magic field into an item that a fighter could activate?

[HunterOfJello]

only items that involve antimagic fields in core are scrolls

[Mastikator]

What's the UMD to activate a scroll again? specifically a 6th level.

[Emmerask]

Use a scroll 20 + caster level

[Volthawk]

What's the UMD to activate a scroll again?

For a scroll of antimagic field, 31 (or 32 if it was from a Sorcerer).

You also need 16 Int (or Cha if it was from a Sorcerer), or make another DC 21 UMD check.

And a Fighter gets 2+Int mod skill points, and UMD is cross-class, so yeah...

[Kobold-Bard]

For a scroll of antimagic field, 31 (or 32 if it was from a Sorcerer).

You also need 16 Int (or Cha if it was from a Sorcerer), or make another DC 21 UMD check.

UMD score needed to activate a scroll is 26 actually (20+spell level).

So a Fighter could have 6.5 ranks, realistically a Cha of +2 Max, meaning he needs a roll of 18 without item support.

\/---- Edit: Damn, so it is. My mistake.

[Volthawk]

UMD score needed to activate a scroll is 26 actually (20+spell level).

So a Fighter could have 6.5 ranks, realistically a Cha of +2 Max, meaning he needs a roll of 18 without item support.

Nope. It's 20+caster level.

[jpreem]

The fighter must use his gold to buy a potion of anti magic field, and throwing weapons that hit the caster with greater dispel magic (since the anti-magic field only affects the magical throwing weapons while inside the field), and the wizard has no chance to disable the anti-magic field. And any buff will wear off when the throwing weapons hit him. He won't really stand a chance against the fighter without his spells.

Basically, whoever wins initiative wins the fight.

How will the throwing wepon cast the Greater Dispel magic? You could load a dispel magic in a spell storing weapon but those allow only up to 3rd level spells.

[pffh]

UMD score needed to activate a scroll is 26 actually (20+spell level).

So a Fighter could have 6.5 ranks, realistically a Cha of +2 Max, meaning he needs a roll of 18 without item support.

Nope it's 20+caster level so he has no chance of using that scroll.

[Emmerask]

[S]UMD score needed to activate a scroll is 26 actually (20+spell level).

20+ spell level is to Decipher a written spell

He could also take skill focus umd + cloak of charisma (no need for other magic items anyway because he will fight in the amf ^^
and we are using raw so masterwork umd tool for another bonus


/edit anyway this is a bit much and doesn´t show anything in the end even if the fighter would win because he would be optimized just for that one purpose everything else he would suck at ^^