4e SoD debate

[Anasazi]

One of the given things about 4e is that they did away with Save or Die effects (referred to as SoD's from this point on). However, if a specific campaign, with players in the epic tier, calls for such an object, what is the protocol?
Would you lay out the object and let it be what it is (as any player attempting an epic teir challenge should be past the 'touch everything before looking' skill set), or would you have a first touch side effect (such as: lose all healing surges) and then let it be what it is?

[Choco]

Let it be what it is IMO.

Plus, 4e already has at least one possible SoD effect: Getting pushed/pulled/slided off a cliff or into a pool of lava, etc. No matter the character or the stats, the saving throw for that is always the same too. In a way this one 4e SoD effect is more brutal than any in 3e (if you optimized your char that is).

[KillianHawkeye]

Something that kills you just by touching it? What the heck is it, Uranium??

I think the players should have a chance to drop it before they die, at least.

At worst, I'd have something that drains 1-2 healing surges a round or does some amount of ongoing damage (no save) for as long as the object is held. That way, the players know they can't touch it but nobody gets slain outright.

[Sir_Elderberry]

Seems like you want this to be serious stuff. Considering the availability of resurrections, I don't see the problem with making it pretty brutal. On touch, make two saving throws. If you fail both of them, you die. If you fail one, you lose all healing surges for the day. If you fail none, you feel a lot weaker or maybe lose half your saving throws or something.

[Nightson]

At epic level. Ongoing 20 damage (save ends). Aftereffect: Ongoing 15 damage (Save ends) Aftereffect: Ongoing 10 damage (save ends)

Not as some sort spammable skill.

[Anasazi]

Just to throw something out there,
the object when the player encounter it is just sitting there, its not possessed by any enemy and will never be, due to its location. Also, theres no effective way for a player to pick it up, due to the obvious effect and how its being held. After certain things are accomplished, the object will go quiet and then be a black hunk of rock, at which point it can be picked up and most effectively used as chauk or potentially thrown as an improvised weapon, :) but thats about it.

Also, as for the nature of the object, its not just a standard death, think disintegration.

[Tiki Snakes]

I think the sleep/etc style model is the way to go.

So you'd have an instant, horrible effect, then on the first, second, third or whatever failed save, the kicker.

Amongst other things, this gives the player a few moments to do something about it, but it still hits hard and fast.

For comparison, Medusa creatures have their whole close-blast petrify, and if you fail the save twice, it's Petrified with no save. This can turn up as low as a level 10 creature. At Epic, I think full on death if falling for idiot trap item in a non-pressurised situation is not out of the question.

[Anasazi]

I think the sleep/etc style model is the way to go.

So you'd have an instant, horrible effect, then on the first, second, third or whatever failed save, the kicker.

Amongst other things, this gives the player a few moments to do something about it, but it still hits hard and fast.

For comparison, Medusa creatures have their whole close-blast petrify, and if you fail the save twice, it's Petrified with no save. This can turn up as low as a level 10 creature. At Epic, I think full on death if falling for idiot trap item in a non-pressurised situation is not out of the question.

An excellent point,
I think I'll lean this way for the object unless anyone else has anything to add to the topic. I appreciate everyones help in this matter.

[Kurald Galain]

Plus, 4e already has at least one possible SoD effect: Getting pushed/pulled/slided off a cliff or into a pool of lava, etc. No matter the character or the stats, the saving throw for that is always the same too.

...not exactly. There are several items or feats that boost all your saving throws (including this one), there are powers that let you teleport out of forced movement, and I've even seen printed adventures where lava instead deals a bunch of ongoing fire damage instead.

[hamishspence]

4E Draconomicon in particular has stats for the various effects of a volcano, from just heat, all the way up to falling into lava.

And DMG did not, in fact, state that faling into lava was a Save of Die effect- it in fact said nothing about lava.

[Thajocoth]

Let it be what it is IMO.

Plus, 4e already has at least one possible SoD effect: Getting pushed/pulled/slided off a cliff or into a pool of lava, etc. No matter the character or the stats, the saving throw for that is always the same too. In a way this one 4e SoD effect is more brutal than any in 3e (if you optimized your char that is).

I have a character that, when faced with a pit of any size, will try to determine if there is hazardous terrain at the bottom... And just jump. They're immune to fall damage (Winged Boots). It's a lot of fun. Today they jumped down a 400 foot pit, and later flew off an ice slide into a 200 foot pit and had to work his way back up. (I don't like playing over-cautiously. I don't really find it fun.)

There are four good ways in 4e to have something like a save or die. One is like Medusa's petrification, where you slowly get the effect as you fail saves (slow, immobilize, petrify). A second is like Sphere of Annihilation in the DMG. It deals a lot of damage if it's attack hits, with special information for if that damage reduces you to 0. A 3rd is to use the disease system, in a similar fashion to the Medusa's petrification, only it takes a lot longer to die. (Many diseases do result in eventual death...) A 4th way is to have the enemy (or whatever) basically temporarily petrify the person, with a condition that a party member of theirs can do to un-petrify them.

[Colmarr]

Just to throw something out there,
the object when the player encounter it is just sitting there, its not possessed by any enemy and will never be, due to its location. Also, theres no effective way for a player to pick it up, due to the obvious effect and how its being held. After certain things are accomplished, the object will go quiet and then be a black hunk of rock, at which point it can be picked up and most effectively used as chauk or potentially thrown as an improvised weapon, :) but thats about it.

Also, as for the nature of the object, its not just a standard death, think disintegration.

This sounds like a Sphere of Annihilation which, as pointed out about, is statted in the DMG. Maybe look at the official stats for it and go from there?

[Kurald Galain]

And DMG did not, in fact, state that faling into lava was a Save of Die effect- it in fact said nothing about lava.

IIRC that was stated in one of the previews before 4E was released. For a variety of reasons, not everything in those previews actually made it into the core rulebooks.

[hamishspence]

Yes- I think the Draconomicon rules were a definite improvement.

[eepop]

That sounds like a sphere of annihilation or similar.

In which case, I would do the following:
1) Upon seeing the object, players are prompted to make one of a few skill choices. The obvious being Arcana or Perception. A successful check tells them that the object would very likely be lethal if touched.
2) If they go to touch it, they make an immediate save to only lose one surge, if they fail it drains all their surges and stuns them for one round. If they are still touching it at the end of their next turn, they die.

So they get a chance to know what they are up against, and then if they touch it anyway, they must rely on their allies to save them from utter destruction.

[Hzurr]

One thing to look at would be the Nightwalker (Lvl 20 Elite Brute). He has the Finger of Death ability (formerly a Save-or-Die in 3.5), but rather than killing you, it simply drops the target to 0 HP (range 5, +21 vs. Fortitude attack, encounter ability, only effects bloodied creatures). I believe Bodaks have a similar ability (but can only do it to weakened creatures). While it doesn't "kill" the character exactly, it will drop them very suddenly. This way you still get the shock of dropping a character suddenly without all of the stupid "oh, sorry. One lucky roll killed you" annoyance that was had in 3.5

[Ormagoden]

Something that kills you just by touching it? What the heck is it, Uranium??

Sphere of annihilation...

Lostfang should read entire threads...

[taltamir]

how about "save or take LOTS of damage"?

And touching uranium (certainly in small amounts) does not kill you. Certainly not instantly.

[hamishspence]

Uranium itself is actually somewhat less dangerous (radioactivity-wise) than what it's obtained from (pitchblende) because that contains other, much more powerfully radioactive elements (radium and polonium)