[3.5] Learning the Incarnum

[Touchy]

Well, I've taken to myself out of boredom to learn the incarnum, but I'm having trouble figuring out some things.

1: Do I just know all the melds available to my class?

2: So I have charka slots and an allowed amount of slots for melds, so I can have melds available but not bound to any particular chakra?

3: They probably replace magical item slots(Aleast by RAI), but might as well ask if they do not?

4: Besides soul melds, what does alignment affect, becuase I'm seeing things in handbooks for specific alignment races can ignore a stat and pump another?

Other than that, I really love the flavor.

[Kobold-Bard]

Well, I've taken to myself out of boredom to learn the incarnum, but I'm having trouble figuring out some things.

1: Do I just know all the melds available to my class?

2: So I have charka slots and an allowed amount of slots for melds, so I can have melds available but not bound to any particular chakra?

3: They probably replace magical item slots(Aleast by RAI), but might as well ask if they do not?

4: Besides soul melds, what does alignment affect, becuase I'm seeing things in handbooks for specific alignment races can ignore a stat and pump another?

Other than that, I really love the flavor.

1. Yes, unless they are of an opposite alignment, so a L / N Incarnate can't use Chaotic Soulmelds.

2. You can use any Chakra slot, but can only bind soulmelds to the slot if you've unlocked it (consult the appropriate character class table).

3. Chakra Slots = Magic Item Slots. You can use a Magic Item in the appropriate Chakra slot, unless you have a Soulmeld bound to it, this blocks the slot so you can't use a magic item in it.

4. The big one is that Incarnates get different powers based on which alignment they are. Soulborns can Smite & Detect their opposite alignments, among other things.

<Insert superior post by Sinfire Titan>

[Yuki Akuma]

Alignment mostly affects Incarnates. Depending on their alignment, their class features and a couple of soulmelds do different things, so they tend to gravitate towards different worlds.

[Starbuck_II]

1: Do I just know all the melds available to my class?

No, you have to choose them. Okay, you get them all.
Example, Lv 1 Incarnate has 2 soulmelds from the incarnate list (in the soulmeld section).
Similar to how Sorcerors have limited known but can choose from entire list.

2: So I have charka slots and an allowed amount of slots for melds, so I can have melds available but not bound to any particular chakra?

yes, you can shape 2 at a time. Also Binding is limited.
Example, Lv 1 Incarnate can only shape 2 soulmelds (he could have more than 2 with Shape Soulmeld feat), but can't Bind at all.


When he becomes lv 2, he can bind his crown (head/helmet) area.

3: They probably replace magical item slots(Aleast by RAI), but might as well ask if they do not?

When Bound to an area: they dissplace magic items.
No headband of int and a bound Crown chakra at same time.

4: Besides soul melds, what does alignment affect, becuase I'm seeing things in handbooks for specific alignment races can ignore a stat and pump another?

Other than that, I really love the flavor.

Alignment has actual effects.
MoI classes can't choose an alignment chakra that doesn't match your alignment. Exanmple, that lv 1 Incarnate (he is LN) can't get a good or evil Chakra (doesn't make his neutral alignment).

[Yuki Akuma]

No, you have to choose them.
Example, Lv 1 Incarnate has 2 soulmelds from the incarnate list (in the soulmeld section).
Similar to how Sorcerors have limited known but can choose from entire list.

...What?

This is... this is entirely wrong.

They're like Clerics - they know everything but can only prepare a few per day.

[Starbuck_II]

...What?

This is... this is entirely wrong.

They're like Clerics - they know everything but can only prepare a few per day.

Whoa, seriously? I never noticed you get them all.
I thought it meant 2 known soulmelds.

[Touchy]

Great, thanks guys. Will post more questions as they come up.

But right now I'm too busy laughing at Azurin fluff.

Edit: Is there an incarnum without extremist flavor, because all but the totemist are really pulling me off because of that. And while it might just be stupid fun to be a chaotic stupid(Evil) soulborn/stupid evil incarnate Nightmare-clone, I feel it's kinda limiting my RP.

[Yuki Akuma]

Alignment shouldn't restrict your RP.

But the Totemist is the best Incarnum class anyway.

[Kobold-Bard]

Great, thanks guys. Will post more questions as they come up.

But right now I'm too busy laughing at Azurin fluff.

Edit: Is there an incarnum without extremist flavor, because all but the totemist are really pulling me off because of that. And while it might just be stupid fun to be a chaotic stupid(Evil) soulborn/stupid evil incarnate Nightmare-clone, I feel it's kinda limiting my RP.

Incarnates are champions of their alignment. The extremes to which you take that are up to you (eg. Miko, Hinjo and Roy are all the same alignment but you can see the differences in how they act).

Soulborns are basically Incarnum Paladins, and again it depends on how extreme you want to take it.

Totemists are, of course, Incarnum Druids, so neutrality, but once again, it depends for far you want to take it (Boccob - strict noninterference vs. Obad-Hai - everything in balance).

[Yuki Akuma]

Totemists have no alignment restrictions.

[Sinfire Titan]

<Insert superior post by Sinfire Titan>

The only thing I'll clarify is that Incarnates cannot shape soulmelds that have an alignment descriptor that doesn't match their own alignment. LN and CN can't shape Good/Evil-aligned soulmelds, which is really all that matters as the only two Lawful/Chaotic melds have all 4 descriptors.


Necrocarnum is a psuedo-exception. LN and CN Incarnates can take Necrocarnum Acolyte to remove the alignment restriction on Necrocarnum Melds. Evil aligned Incarnates don't need to worry about this.

Totemists are, of course, Incarnum Druids, so neutrality, but once again, it depends for far you want to take it (Boccob - strict noninterference vs. Obad-Hai - everything in balance).

Totemists have no alignment restrictions. It makes things a little confusing when you make one and grab the Incarnate Avatar with Shape Soulmeld.

[Kobold-Bard]

Totemists have no alignment restrictions.

Fair enough, ignore my last one then.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, Incarnates are SUPPOSED to be a paragon of their respective alignment. They are LAW Incarnate, or Evil Incarnate, etc. Soulborns are stupid. Just pretend that every time they are mentioned, you are humming really loud with your hands clasped over your ears. That, or check out one of the many "fixes" proposed for Soulborns around the playground and the internets as a whole.

Totemists, however, are pure prepackaged awesomeness. They aren't bound by alignment. They are as badass as you want them to be. They are relatively versatile, as far as melee classes go, and incredibly fun to play.

What other questions do you have?

[Touchy]

Alignment shouldn't restrict your RP.

But the Totemist is the best Incarnum class anyway.

I'm going to assume Incarnate comes second, followed by Soulborn then?

Thanks for the RP advice, some of the flavor makes it look as if I was forced into playing a lawful/chaotic stupid or a stupid good/evil character.

[Sinfire Titan]

I'm going to assume Incarnate comes second, followed by Soulborn then?

Thanks for the RP advice, some of the flavor makes it look as if I was forced into playing a lawful/chaotic stupid or a stupid good/evil character.

In terms of overall power, the Incarnate has an advantage with UMD abuse. But that's if you are seriously optimizing it to compete with Tier 2 classes. If not, Totemist is the technical strongest class offense-wise; the Incarnate has the best defensive abilities.

[balistafreak]

An easy fix that still keeps a modicum of relationship with the rules is to pick an "alignment" for your Incarnate separate from your actual alignment. Basically, you still don't get to shape all the melds, but you act as another alignment when shaping.

So you could select "evil" for your melds, despite being Good. You'd get access to Bloodwar Gauntlets but not the Lammasu Mantle, and your Incarnate Avatar benefit would be extra melee damage, not AC.

(On the note of the Lammasu Mantle, a similiar fix is to take all the opposition-based melds and make them universal.)

This is mainly for letting gamers take the abilities that they want but preventing them from gaining access to whatever they want. To tell the truth, though, it's not a huge deal anyways. More important than what you can shape is what you actually shape - this just changes your selection, and doesn't widen it.

[Touchy]

An easy fix that still keeps a modicum of relationship with the rules is to pick an "alignment" for your Incarnate separate from your actual alignment. Basically, you still don't get to shape all the melds, but you act as another alignment when shaping.

So you could select "evil" for your melds, despite being Good. You'd get access to Bloodwar Gauntlets but not the Lammasu Mantle, and your Incarnate Avatar benefit would be extra melee damage, not AC.

(On the note of the Lammasu Mantle, a similiar fix is to take all the opposition-based melds and make them universal.)

This is mainly for letting gamers take the abilities that they want but preventing them from gaining access to whatever they want. To tell the truth, though, it's not a huge deal anyways. More important than what you can shape is what you actually shape - this just changes your selection, and doesn't widen it.

Nah, I'll find a way to play an alignment.

Currently, making a chaotic evil soulborn, a skarn named Souls.

[Lycanthromancer]

So, I have a question, and I'll direct it mostly at Sinfire_Titan, since he tends to know a lot more about these things than most, although anyone's welcome to answer, of course...

What happens when you have, say, a Good [Evil] character, or an Evil [Good] character, or perhaps something similar along the lines of Chaos and Law?

I mean, what if that succubus paladin had been a NG incarnate/cleric of the burning hate Pelor, instead?

[Person_Man]

Other things you might want to know:

1) You can get access to Soulmelds of any class with the Shape Soulmeld feat. This is particularly important for the 1-3 useful Soulborn soulmelds, since the Soulborn is complete garbage.

2) You can open chakra slots with the Open Chakra feats or with spells or psionic powers. The important exceptions are the Totem, Heart, and Soul chakra slots, which can only be opened with class levels. This lets some soulmelds be useful at higher levels even if you multi-class.

3) Some soulmelds require a Saving Throw. The Save DC is 10 + # of essentia points invested + Con bonus (Totemists) or Wis bonus (Incarnates). This means that your Save DC is sometimes quite low for your ECL, because the Totemist has a somewhat constrained essentia pool and capacity, and the Incarnate has MAD. So it's often advisable to avoid soulmelds with Saving Throws (though certainly not always).

4) Some soulmelds are based on meldshaper level. These soulmelds are most useful if you do not multi-class or enter most PrCs (which usually lose one or more meldshaper levels).

5) On the flip side, a great way to get access to a wide variety of options is if you go Dragonborn Dwarf Totemist 2/Incarnate 3/Ironsoul Forgemaster 10.

[Optimystik]

So, I have a question, and I'll direct it mostly at Sinfire_Titan, since he tends to know a lot more about these things than most, although anyone's welcome to answer, of course...

What happens when you have, say, a Good [Evil] character, or an Evil [Good] character, or perhaps something similar along the lines of Chaos and Law?

I mean, what if that succubus paladin had been a NG incarnate/cleric of the burning hate Pelor, instead?

From the SRD, Subtypes (combining the aligned subtype entries):

Most creatures that have [the Good, Evil, Lawful, or Chaotic] subtype also have [Good, Evil, Lawful, or Chaotic] alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a [Good, Evil, Lawful, or Chaotic] alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment.

In other words, just as you can Smite Evil a Succubus Paladin, so too can she don [Evil] soulmelds. But the last sentence seems to indicate that she can wear [Good] ones too. Unless MoI has some clarification I'm missing, it seems like you get the best of both worlds here.

Another way to double-dip aligned soulmelds is by being a Hellbred. A good-aligned Hellbred Incarnate can wield both Good and Evil soulmelds thanks to Evil Exception, so long as you Soulmelds-Magic transparency is in effect. He even gets a bonus to Constitution if you pick the Body Aspect, making him a handy meldshaper.

[AmberVael]

So, I have a question, and I'll direct it mostly at Sinfire_Titan, since he tends to know a lot more about these things than most, although anyone's welcome to answer, of course...

What happens when you have, say, a Good [Evil] character, or an Evil [Good] character, or perhaps something similar along the lines of Chaos and Law?

I mean, what if that succubus paladin had been a NG incarnate/cleric of the burning hate Pelor, instead?

To clarify your question, you're asking if having a Good or Evil subtype allow or disallow you to shape certain soulmelds.

My interpretation would be no.

To quote the Evil subtype (the Good subtype uses the same wording):

Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment.

Typically, DnD uses 'effect' when talking about spells, abilities, or other such things that target a creature- having an Evil subtype would mean you're affected by spells that target Evil creatures, no matter your alignment: but it wouldn't mean you could qualify for a feat that has the prerequisite of Evil.

My interpretation would be that you have soulmelds based off of your alignment, not your subtype, and I think it is how you would interpret it by RAW.

To affect your ability to shape Soulmelds, you'd need an ability more akin to the Hellbred's Evil Exception racial ability (page 78, Fiendish Codex II).

[Godskook]

Here's one I've been scratching my head over.

How come the Totem Avatar's Heart-bind gives you DR/Magic????? Its a L17 Totemist bind, but gives you an effect that stops being useful around L6. And to make it worse, the Heart-bind is the "Tarrasque" totem, which is just a laughable comparison.

-----------

Also, is there a guide that divides soulmeld and bind selections based on approximate character level? Cause all the guides I've found lump everything in together, and having to shift through level-inappropriate information is annoying when you're building a character(Kinda like having to shift through L9 spells for a 5th level caster).

[Optimystik]

@ Vael - I can see the issue being decided both ways. Ultimately, it depends on how your DM defines "effect."

From a power standpoint, I see nothing wrong with subtyped creatures whose alignment differs from the subtype to be allowed to "double-dip." After all, they are always subject to all the negative aspects of dual-alignment. Lycanthromancer's succubus paladin, for instance, can be discovered via both Detect Good and Detect Evil; she can be smote by Paladins of Honor and Tyranny alike; and she is vulnerable to both Blasphemy and Holy Word.

Therefore, in my opinion, granting her access to both [Good] and [Evil] soulmelds is not upsetting that balance; it is redressing it.

[Sinfire Titan]

So, I have a question, and I'll direct it mostly at Sinfire_Titan, since he tends to know a lot more about these things than most, although anyone's welcome to answer, of course...

What happens when you have, say, a Good [Evil] character, or an Evil [Good] character, or perhaps something similar along the lines of Chaos and Law?

I mean, what if that succubus paladin had been a NG incarnate/cleric of the burning hate Pelor, instead?

I can only tell you that the subtype won't affect their ability to shape a soulmeld. The only major exception is Hellbred, but that requires the DM to interpret soulmelds as Magic Items or spell effects.

Here's one I've been scratching my head over.

How come the Totem Avatar's Heart-bind gives you DR/Magic????? Its a L17 Totemist bind, but gives you an effect that stops being useful around L6. And to make it worse, the Heart-bind is the "Tarrasque" totem, which is just a laughable comparison.

Because the Devs are idiots. I'd change it to /- or /Epic, or even Magic+Cold Iron/Silver at the very least.

Also, is there a guide that divides soulmeld and bind selections based on approximate character level? Cause all the guides I've found lump everything in together, and having to shift through level-inappropriate information is annoying when you're building a character(Kinda like having to shift through L9 spells for a 5th level caster).

Not really. The best I can do is point you to the current Incarnate Handbook at BG, where Person_Man made a post regarding who gets what Chakras the fastest. That will tell you what soulmelds to look at when binding them each day.

[Person_Man]

Here's one I've been scratching my head over.

How come the Totem Avatar's Heart-bind gives you DR/Magic????? Its a L17 Totemist bind, but gives you an effect that stops being useful around L6. And to make it worse, the Heart-bind is the "Tarrasque" totem, which is just a laughable comparison.

You are correct. There are a number of souldmelds which are sucky and/or inefficient and/or duplicative and/or only useful at specific levels and/or against very specific enemies. Incarnum requires a pretty high level of rules mastery to use well.

Also, is there a guide that divides soulmeld and bind selections based on approximate character level? Cause all the guides I've found lump everything in together, and having to shift through level-inappropriate information is annoying when you're building a character(Kinda like having to shift through L9 spells for a 5th level caster).

If the base ability of the soulmeld is useful, then it's generally worth shaping at level 1. If the soulmeld is only useful because it provides a bonus (To-Hit, damage, Skills, etc) then it becomes useful when that bonus becomes large enough to have a real impact - usually around level 6. If the soulmeld is only useful when bound, then it becomes useful at the level that chakra bind becomes available to you.

[AmberVael]

@ Vael - I can see the issue being decided both ways. Ultimately, it depends on how your DM defines "effect."

From a power standpoint, I see nothing wrong with subtyped creatures whose alignment differs from the subtype to be allowed to "double-dip." After all, they are always subject to all the negative aspects of dual-alignment. Lycanthromancer's succubus paladin, for instance, can be discovered via both Detect Good and Detect Evil; she can be smote by Paladins of Honor and Tyranny alike; and she is vulnerable to both Blasphemy and Holy Word.

Therefore, in my opinion, granting her access to both [Good] and [Evil] soulmelds is not upsetting that balance; it is redressing it.

And when it comes to the various soulmelds which simply have different effects on differently aligned Incarnates? What then? Do they gain the bonuses of both?

From a power standpoint, I can see the argument. But that's not the argument we're having. The question isn't 'should this be allowed,' but 'what happens by the rules.'

By the rules, Effect seems to have a fairly standard and consistent definition, and I'm pretty sure Prerequisites and similar things (such as the ability to shape soulmelds) don't count as Effects. In other words- if something targets you and it affects Evil creatures, one way or another, and you have the Evil subtype, you are affected by that effect.

If it allowed you to function in all ways as if you had an Evil alignment, then it would use different wording, as can be seen in abilities that do that sort of thing. It would probably state something along the lines of "A creature with the Evil subtype is treated as if they had an Evil alignment, even if their actual alignment is not Evil." (presumably a clause would follow that stated that this doesn't substitute for your actual alignment). That would allow you to qualify as being Evil. As is, it only makes it so you're hit by things that affect Evil creatures. Like Smite Evil.

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

While saying this may be blasphemy, Soulborn isn't a weak class. You just need to multiclass. For instance, If you were a CG player, then a Paladin of Freedom 5/Battledancer 1/Soulborn 14 is a great combo, all based off CHA, while a CE goes for Paladin of Slaughter 5/Battledancer 1/Hexblade 3/Soulborn 11. Personally, I use Soulborn as villains (specifically the forementioned)

and for those in Gestalt, Incarnum is unstoppable in gestalt. From Incarnate/Factotum to Soulborn/Paladin to the infamous Druid/Totemist, it's a Gestaltmonkey's best friend

[Person_Man]

While saying this may be blasphemy, Soulborn isn't a weak class. You just need to multiclass. For instance, If you were a CG player, then a Paladin of Freedom 5/Battledancer 1/Soulborn 14 is a great combo, all based off CHA, while a CE goes for Paladin of Slaughter 5/Battledancer 1/Hexblade 3/Soulborn 11. Personally, I use Soulborn as villains (specifically the forementioned)

Here's a rundown of the Soulborn's abilities:

• d10 hit die, full BAB, heavy armor, shields, Strong Fort Save
• Level 1: Smite Opposition 1 per day, cleric/paladin aura (useless).
• Level 2: Incarnum Defense: Minor immunity based on your alignment.
• Level 3: Incarnum bonus feat.
• Level 4: Your first Soulmeld.
• Level 5: Smite Opposition 2 per day.
• Level 6: Your first point of essentia.
• Level 7: Incarnum bonus feat.
• Level 8: Your first Chakra bind. It's notable that anyone can open the same chakra slots at level 6 by using a feat.

And so on. You end up with 5 soulmelds (compared to 9 for the Totemist or Incarnate) 10 points of essentia (compared to 20 for the Totemist and 26 for the Incarnate) 3 chakra binds (compared to 5 for the Totemist and Incarnate) with no access to the Totem, Heart, or Soul chakra slots. You also do not get the expanded soulmeld capacity abilities, which are a huge deal. And your capstone ability is the useless Timeless Body.

Like many other utterly nerfed classes, I'm willing to accept that it might be useful for an NPC. But for players, it's most definitely a Tier 5 or 6 class.

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

So, personman, you claim my way of using it is incorrect?

[Person_Man]

So, personman, you claim my way of using it is incorrect?

You stated that it was not a weak class. I presented my evidence for why I believe it is a weak class. I think my arguments are pretty strait forward. I conceded that it could be used as an NPC successfully, just as you could use a Healer or a Samurai as an NPC successfully. And like any other weak non-caster class, you can make it better by adding levels of other stronger classes. But you can accomplish the exact same things and much much more by replacing ALL of the Soulborn levels with levels of Totemist or Incarnate. You just have to swap out Power Attack feats for soulmeld boosts, and/or use Divine Power.