Ersatz Monk

[Yora]

Or: Playing a monk without being a monk.

I think we don't need to get into detail here: Monk is a cool character concept, but the class is really rather bad way to realize it.
But as most classes in D&D are rather generic and can be combined as desired, and fluff can be made up as required, this doesn't have too big of a problem.

I'm terrible at optimization and have played very few games, above 6th level, so I'd like some thoughts and advice from other people, who know more about these things.

First, let's define the character concept:
"An unarmed (and unarmored) melee fighter who has superhuman control over his body and can perform huge leaps, run on roofs, and kill a bull with his bare hands."

I'd like to stay within the options of the SRD, and want the character to work on all levels of play. Though myself, I'll probably never have to deal with levels above 10th.

I think what seems like a good start is a PsyWar/Rogue multiclass character. PsyWar has the physical magic to allow for sufficient unarmed damage and also fits the concept flavor-wise. Rogue mostly delivers the skill points and class skills, both of them the PsyWar is really lacking.

So, how would you say to best approach this build? (Let's make it 10th level.)
Claws of the Beast, Innertial Armor, and Metaphysical Claw really seem like obvious choices for powers.
Speed of Mind, Mental Leap, and Up the Walls work great as feats for the concept, and Psionic Meditation would be an obvious choice as well.
I'd like Improved Feint and Improved Grapple, but both require another feat as prerequisite, and a character just doesn't get enough feats to get all of them.

The character gains nothing by taking PsyWar at 1st level, but huge loads of skill points as Rogue, so the choice at 1st level is obvious.
For both classes, 5th level does not gain any increase in BAB and saves, so Psw 5/Rog 5 should be avoided.

I think either Rog 4/Psw 6 oe Rog 3/Psw 7 seem like good choices. Or even Rog 6/Psw 4, but that would limit the number of powers to meek 4.

What advice can you give me for this build?
(And not unarmed swordsage. )

[Sinfire Titan]

Totemist makes Sneak Attack even better. And reflavoring=Monk.

[Human Paragon 3]

Possibly Scout would make a better choice than Rogue, since you want to be mobile. You do want to be mobile, right?

Maybe Psywar/Scout/Hunter? or Psywar/Scout/Warmind?

[Toliudar]

Having played a PsyWar as if he were a monk, I'd say 1 level of rogue or unarmed swordsage, followed by Psychic Warrior all the way.

[Prime32]

Tashalatora?

And not quite what you're looking for, but I made a Core-only build which can replicate all of a monk's abilities at higher power without having any levels of monk.

Monk without monk
Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Assassin 10/Blackguard 2/Dragon disciple 2
Feats: Cleave, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Multiattack, Power Attack, Stunning Fist
Items: +1 axiomatic adamantine gauntlet of speed, Monk's belt, Periapt of health, Ring of evasion, Ring of feather falling (optional)

Use dragon disciple to get two extra 4th-level assassin spell slots, and put dimension door in one of them. Death Attack emulates Quivering Palm. Your DD natural weapons, gauntlet and +16 BAB emulate flurry. The blackguard's Dark Blessing improves your saving throws, and CLW 1/day makes up for Wholeness of Body. Still rather MAD, unfortunately (needs 14 Int for assassin spells, plus Wis 11 and good Cha for blackguard). Note that rogue and assassin have UMD as class skills.

If you can put enchantments on an amulet of mighty fists all the better.

[balistafreak]

I filled in the idea of unarmed damage dealer with a Warforged Totemist. By 5th level I had 6 attacks on a full attack at full BAB that forced DC 14 Fortitude saves (albeit only on evil creatures, but seriously what isn't evil these days?) to avoid Dexterity damage. One more level and I would have had Pounce through bound Sphinx Claws as well. That, or I would have just dipped a level of Barbarian to get Pounce anyways

Going up to 5th level gets you a total of 4 feats to work with. Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, Touch of Golden Ice, Jaws of Death (Warforged feat granting a secondary bite attack).

4 claws, a slam, and a bite. Take Second Slam at +6 BAB for the lulz.

(It's better if you take the decidedly against RAI but hardly broken RAW reading of Vow of Poverty to grant you only one Exalted feat, which can be Touch of Golden Ice, and then normal feats after that.)

The only real requirement is to Bind Giralon Arms. You'll still have three melds to work with - use them to improve your mobility/armor with Blink Shirt and Wormtail Belt or something. I also took Dread Carapace, but it's usefulness is a bit limited at this level.

As a natural-weapon, fast moving striker, I'm not sure what Monk build would be better than this.

[awa]

i awl ways felt the psionic focus abbilities felt monkish to me the whole enter a state of absolute focus gain special abbilities as long as you maintain it.
So maby take a few of those feats.

Also hammer may be a better choice then the claws becuase it seems more strong punch then the claws.

Whether you want more rogue or more psionic really should depend if you want to focus on your jumping, tumbling, sneaking, and other various skill things or if you want to focus on hitting things really hard

[Pluto]

The Psionic Fist PrC solves most of the Monk's problems on its own (Psychic Warrior powers greatly increase damage, mobility, defenses and just about everything else) and increase the Monk's basic abilities with more skills and a faster power/PP advancement rate than the Psychic Warrior.

Almost any combination of Rogue/Monk/Psychic Warrior makes a good entry (assuming fractional BA, anyway).

Otherwise, Elocator matches the Monk's style pretty well. It's a bit rough on the damage output, but you probably can compensate with your Manifesting (though it might take a bit of work to maintain the concept). Rogue or Monk 1/Egoist 5 could work for entry (Vigor/Share Pain will be the name of the game).


Psychic Warrior is also passable, but it kind of loses out as far as skills are concerned. (It can make up for them with things like Compression and Metamorphosis, but that's kind of diverging from the archetype.)

[Yora]

Also hammer may be a better choice then the claws becuase it seems more strong punch then the claws.

Only at early levels.
At 5th level you can spend 5 pp to deal 1d8 points of damage as a touch attack for 5 rounds with Hammer.
With Claws of the Beast you deal 1d8 + Str points of damage for 5 hours. As natural weapons you gain two attacks per round at full AB on every level.
You can also spend another 5 pp to make the Claws +1 weapons for 5 hours.

Hammers touch attack is nice, but on the long run, claws clearly win out.

[Project_Mayhem]

I would second using one out of core feat and taking the Tashalatora feat. Means a Monk 1/ Psychic Warrior x still has the monk favour while actually working

[Yora]

Tashalatora seems pretty cheesy to me, and I am hesitant to allow another class for my campaign for the sole purpose of making a 1 level dip.

[Project_Mayhem]

?

It's a feat, not a class. I'm pretty sure its not cheesy either. It doesn't add much power at all to the PsyWar, but lets the Monk abilities be viable

[Emmerask]

I would go with the 3 level monk dip, which is very solid choice power wise, good saves, +10ft movement, monk unarmed strike, 5ft steps -> 10ft (a&eg item), and a bunch of useful feats.

Monk 3 / psy Warrior x / Psionic Fist
or maybe monk 3/ scout x /something

or outside srd

monk 3 / swordsage x / master of nine

[Telonius]

Using only nonpsionic core classes:

Human
Fighter1 - Improved Unarmed Strike (Human), Stunning Fist (Fighter), Improved Grapple
Ftr2 - Weapon Finesse (Fighter)
Ftr3 - Combat Expertise
Ftr4 - Dodge (Fighter)
Ftr5
Ftr6 - Mobility (Fighter), Improved Disarm
Ftr7
Ftr8 - Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) (Fighter)
Ftr9 - Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
Ftr10 - Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) (Fighter)
Ftr 11
Ftr 12 - Greater Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike) (Fighter), Iron Will
Ftr 12/Duelist1
Ftr 12/Du2
Ftr 12/Du3 - Improved Trip
Ftr 12/Du4 - Two-Weapon Fighting (Fighter)
Ftr 13/Du4
Ftr 14/Du4 - Improved TWF (Fighter), Snatch Arrows
Ftr 15/Du4
Ftr 16/Du4 - Greater TWF (Fighter)

Equipment: Ring of Feather Fall, Quarterstaff, Dagger, Monk's Belt.
Requirements: Dex 13, Int 13, 3 ranks in perform and 5 ranks in tumble by level 13.
Recommended: Fairly high Int for skills and Canny Defense.

Specifically for the OP, this character gets a lot of his goodies early on. He has most of the Monk feats, full BAB, d10 hit dice throughout. High reflex and fort saves. Duelist to get some advantage out of being lightly armored. A couple items mimic some of the Monk abilities.

[Kylarra]

Tashalatora seems pretty cheesy to me, and I am hesitant to allow another class for my campaign for the sole purpose of making a 1 level dip.

Tash is a feat, not a class.

Note that you'd have to actually allow two noncore feats. Monastic Training from ECS and Tashalatora from SoS.

[Yora]

But with that feat there's no reason to take more than 1 level of mon, so I'd rather leave monks out altogether.

[Kylarra]

But with that feat there's no reason to take more than 1 level of mon, so I'd rather leave monks out altogether.

Well actually Monk 2/PsyWar18 is the usual train for that, but monk has never been more than a dip class for any "optimized" "monk build" anyway...

[Tinydwarfman]

But with that feat there's no reason to take more than 1 level of mon, so I'd rather leave monks out altogether.

So you rather have no monk at all than some monk?
ok...

but really, it is an extremely simple and elegant build that WotC actually intended you to take. Tashalatora was completely desgined for monk/psywar or psion.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

The SRD I use also features some unearthed arcana bits. If that is 'core' enough for you, you may want to have a look at the human paragon. It advances spellcasting (2/3) and allows you to pick any 10 skills as class skills.

I have made builds going for human paragon and psion (not literally a spellcaster, but I allow for advancement of psionics for human paragons, not a huge leap). I used most of my feats for Expanded Knowledge to pick from the sweet powers on the Psywar list. This way you get a good boost to the skill-department as well as more powers and more powerpoints. It suits me better than rogue/psywar: a bit lower attack bonus, but more flexibility.

Later on Slayer, Elocator or an other class with manifesting and good/decent b.a.b. as PrC are decent options to make up for the lowish b.a.b.

1-Paragon (get a load of monk-ish skills at 4 ranks, select one skill that will remain class skill throughout career)
2-Psion (seer for listen/spot or nomad for physical skills, depending on your preference, bonus feat)
3-Paragon (+1 psion manifesting, bonus feat, advance skills)
4-Paragon (+1 psion manifesting, +2 to any ability score, advance skills)
5-Psion
Continue psion / advance a good b.a.b. PrC etc.

[Yora]

This would be a Tashalatora Monk2/Psychic Warrior 18.

Psionic Monk Base Class

Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills
Autohypnosis (Wis), Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana/psionics/religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Flurry of Blows|Unarmed|AC|Special|PP/Day|Pw. Known|Max. Power Level
1st|+0|+2|+0|+0|-2/-2|1d6|+0|Improved Grapple|-|-|-
2nd|+1|+3|+0|+0|-1/-1|1d6|+0|Evasion|-|-|-
3rd|+2|+3|+1|+1|+0/+0|1d6|+0|Bonus feat|0|1|1st
4th|+3|+4|+1|+1|+1/+1|1d8|+0|Bonus feat|1|2|1st
5th|+3|+4|+1|+1|+1/+1|1d8|+1|-|3|3|1st
6th|+4|+5|+2|+2|+2/+2|1d8|+1|-|5|4|2nd
7th|+5|+5|+2|+2|+3/+3|1d8|+1|Bonus feat|7|5|2nd
8th|+6/+1|+6|+2|+2|+4/+4/-1|1d10|+1|-|11|6|2nd
9th|+6/+1|+6|+3|+3|+4/+4/-1|1d10|+1|-|15|7|3rd
10th|+7/+2|+7|+3|+3|+5/+5/+0|1d10|+2|Bonus feat|19|8|3rd
11th|+8/+3|+7|+3|+3|+6/+6/+1|1d10|+2|-|23|9|3rd
12th|+9/+4|+8|+4|+4|+7/+7/+2|2d6|+2|-|27|10|4th
13th|+9/+4|+8|+4|+4|+7/+7/+2|2d6|+2|Bonus feat|35|11|4th
14th|+10/+5|+9|+4|+4|+8/+8/+3|2d6|+2|-|43|12|4th
15th|+11/+6/+1|+9|+5|+5|+9/+9/+4/-1|2d6|+3|-|51|13|5th
16th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|+10/+10/+5/+0|2d8|+3|Bonus feat|59|14|5th
17th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|+10/+10/+5/+0|2d8|+3|-|67|15|5th
18th|+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|+11/+11/+6/+1|2d8|+3|-|79|16|6th
19th|+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|+12/+12/+7/+2|2d8|+3|Bonus feat|91|17|6th
20th|+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|+13/+13/+8/+3|2d10|+4|-|103|18|6th
[/table]

Gains: No 2 feats needed and no skill prerequisite. Lots more skill points.
Losses: Combat Expertise/Deflect Arrows bonus feat. Lots of save bonuses for not being multiclass.

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

Shifter Scout 4/Unarmed Swordsage 1/Weretouched Master 10/Bloodclaw Master 5

[gorfnab]

Shifter Scout 5/Unarmed Swordsage 1/Weretouched Master 4/Bloodclaw Master 10

Bloodclaw Master is only 5 levels long.

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

Bloodclaw Master is only 5 levels long.

AFB (as in, at school and books are at home)

than make weretouched master 10 and Bloodclaw Master 5 and scout 4

[Tinydwarfman]

This would be a Tashalatora Monk2/Psychic Warrior 18.

Psionic Monk Base Class

An excellent solution. Show this to any player who wants to make a monk.

[Kylarra]

I'd give them the all strong saves personally, or at least strong will, but that's just me.

[FishAreWet]

that Psionic Monk class is strictly worse then Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18 I think.

[Eldariel]

This would be a Tashalatora Monk2/Psychic Warrior 18.

Psionic Monk Base Class

Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills
Autohypnosis (Wis), Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana/psionics/religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Flurry of Blows|Unarmed|AC|Special|PP/Day|Pw. Known|Max. Power Level
1st|+0|+2|+0|+0|-2/-2|1d6|+0|Improved Grapple|-|-|-
2nd|+1|+3|+0|+0|-1/-1|1d6|+0|Evasion|-|-|-
3rd|+2|+3|+1|+1|+0/+0|1d6|+0|Bonus feat|0|1|1st
4th|+3|+4|+1|+1|+1/+1|1d8|+0|Bonus feat|1|2|1st
5th|+3|+4|+1|+1|+1/+1|1d8|+1|-|3|3|1st
6th|+4|+5|+2|+2|+2/+2|1d8|+1|-|5|4|2nd
7th|+5|+5|+2|+2|+3/+3|1d8|+1|Bonus feat|7|5|2nd
8th|+6/+1|+6|+2|+2|+4/+4/-1|1d10|+1|-|11|6|2nd
9th|+6/+1|+6|+3|+3|+4/+4/-1|1d10|+1|-|15|7|3rd
10th|+7/+2|+7|+3|+3|+5/+5/+0|1d10|+2|Bonus feat|19|8|3rd
11th|+8/+3|+7|+3|+3|+6/+6/+1|1d10|+2|-|23|9|3rd
12th|+9/+4|+8|+4|+4|+7/+7/+2|2d6|+2|-|27|10|4th
13th|+9/+4|+8|+4|+4|+7/+7/+2|2d6|+2|Bonus feat|35|11|4th
14th|+10/+5|+9|+4|+4|+8/+8/+3|2d6|+2|-|43|12|4th
15th|+11/+6/+1|+9|+5|+5|+9/+9/+4/-1|2d6|+3|-|51|13|5th
16th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|+10/+10/+5/+0|2d8|+3|Bonus feat|59|14|5th
17th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|+10/+10/+5/+0|2d8|+3|-|67|15|5th
18th|+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|+11/+11/+6/+1|2d8|+3|-|79|16|6th
19th|+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|+12/+12/+7/+2|2d8|+3|Bonus feat|91|17|6th
20th|+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|+13/+13/+8/+3|2d10|+4|-|103|18|6th
[/table]

Gains: No 2 feats needed and no skill prerequisite. Lots more skill points.
Losses: Combat Expertise/Deflect Arrows bonus feat. Lots of save bonuses for not being multiclass.

Give it a good Will-save or a good Ref-save since the loss of two good save progressions kinda bites and it eats into the value of Evasion. Also, obviously, one has to write the Monk UA Strike (complete with IUS) and AC progression into the first level.

Also, you could just call that "Monk". Monk is already "mind over body", as is Psionics; they're pretty much the same thing, part of why Psionics work so well for a Monk. And definitely include the clause that it works for Stunning Fist as a Monk since being Wis-derived, Stunning Fist is an excellent option for a Monk/Psy War.

I'd probably give it a few more power points since Psy War itself is a bit starved which leads to people usually having to work around it with Manifester Arrows and other random stuff like that, and it's really no fun to be of a class with tons of cool abilities and being unable to use them. Heck, they're limited in Power Levels so you could place them closer to Psions in Power Points (the "Duskblade"-solution) and they'd be fine.


An interesting spinoff is the Divine Monk, Monk 1/Cleric 4 (or 5)/Sacred Fist 10/whateverClericcasting 4. It fits more of the western concept of Monk's work blended into the oriental "martial Monk" making for an interesting mix of a divinely empowered martial artist.

That's definitely another functional Monk replacement. Monk 2 is the other possible entry, but as that gives up 9th level spells by 20, it's kind of annoying. But yeah, as long as writing base classes, that fills two slots: Divine warrior (as opposed to Cleric who is more of a divine caster, and Paladin that just...meh) and martial artist.

If one wants an extraordinary Martial Artist, ToB can provide but outside that it's hard to make work. Fighter picking Superior Unarmed Strike can be decent, but not amazing.

that Psionic Monk class is strictly worse then Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18 I think.

Not quite, what he said is true: It saves two feats and only loses one, which is +1 feat. It does lose good save progressions, but gains extra skill points. Overall, it's functional, while a bit different.

[Yorrin]

An adaptation of a build I've been playing around with:

Ninja 1/Moon Warded Ranger 2/Swordsage 4/Shiba Protector 1

And that covers your first 8 lvls. Grab Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, and Intuitive Attack for feats, and you've got great Wis synergy, plenty of skills, effortless AC, and it's easy to flavor the way you want.