OOTS #716 - The Discussion Thread

[RickDaily12]

1. The prophecy was made to Roy. He is expecting that Belkar will die, permanently. So, he's not going to bother to raise him, even if he could, because it would break the prophecy (which of course makes it self-fulfilling).

2. Roy has already confirmed to both Haley and the deva that he only keeps Belkar around because he's useful and does less Evil with the party than he would on his own. If Belkar's dead, he can't do any Evil at all. Roy's not about to turn him loose on the world again when there's finally a prison - death itself - guaranteed to hold him permanently.

Who's to say that this means he's just eager to watch Belkar die though?

I'll admit, my theory isn't rock solid, but even THEN- The whole world doesn't completely hate Belkar. Someone like Jenny, if she heard of his death, might pay quite a penny to bring him back. Or maybe someone else completely new or forgotten to us.

I really want to stress that this is Belkar's last breath. This is huge. Would the Giant seriously say: "Yep everyone, sucks to be Belkar, because the world hates him too much to bother to raise him." I would be bashing heads through walls if he did. And every other Oracle prophecy (that has a seperate plot around it) otherwise has been climatic. That one sounds rather... dull.

Haley had that long bit with Nale
Vaarsuvius had gone insane with "ultimate arcane power"
Roy had EVERYONE freak out that he forgot about Azure city
Belkar died from -insert cause of death here- and everyone hates him so he wasn't raised.

I don't think it fits nicely.

Because the entire world doesn't hate him. And more importantly, Roy doesn't have a lot of people he can trust with this. Durkon has Resurrection prepared constantly, and lots of diamonds. I see no reason why he'd ignore Belkar. Because if Belkar dies, who replaces him who is guarenteed not going to screw with the Order?

Belkar has constantly proven his loyality, and he's useful as an Order member. If he were to randomly die, but his body was saved, I see little reason not to reraise him. Like I said- my theory doesn't contained hardcore evidence- but in any DND campaign, would you let a player's character stay dead, even if he were Evil? Of course not! So why is this different?

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And don't bother mentioning the Astral Deva's warning to Roy. He batted her off easily as it was, and his logic was sound. He needs people, no matter what their alignment is, to defeat the Snarl and Xykon. Sure, he wants him to do as little evil as possible, and Death is a very good prison, but I think he needs to care MORE about saving the universe from destruction than letting fallen members rot in the ground because you're maximizing the chance that the party member won't run off and kill an innocent (which, to be fair, was rather long ago.) Belkar had MAJOR character development. He's no longer the crazy guy (or at least as much) that's in this quest to kill anymore.

So because of that, I don't agree. You may be right, but your conclusion comes to me as anticlimatical and too simple. There must be more to it that Belkar would not ever live again. And, assuming Roy was right about them saving the world before the end of year, and assuming Belkar is alive before the final battles, then I stick to my theory. It has to be the Snarl.

[Werbaer]

Durkon has Resurrection prepared constantly, and lots of diamonds.

In #649, Durkon said he prepared ressurrection that morning because of the sending spell. And Haley had to steal the diamond from the cast page as spell component, since Durkons' were stolen.

[Kish]

Because if Belkar dies, who replaces him who is guarenteed not going to screw with the Order?

Belkar has constantly proven his loyality,

Guaranteed not going to screw with the Order? Loyalty? I thought we were talking about Belkar.

Like I said- my theory doesn't contained hardcore evidence- but in any DND campaign, would you let a player's character stay dead, even if he were Evil?

If I was in a full-PvP-allowed, you-can't-leave-if-you-want-to, group where one of the PCs was blatantly and unsubtly Chaotic Evil, had already tried to kill another member of the Order, asked an Oracle as the one question he could ask if he would ever get to kill anyone from a list of people which included another member of the Order and me, and only didn't betray the Order because he was too stupid to realize the main villain could remove his Mark of Justice--ignoring the several ways this would never happen? I would have killed him myself a long time ago. And burned the body to make sure no one carelessly resurrected him.

Of course not! So why is this different?

You mean, other than the little fact that it's real life for the members of the Order, not a game?

Belkar had MAJOR character development.

He's doing a very bad job of faking no longer being completely psychotic, and that's what you call MAJOR character development? I have to wonder what you'd say he had if he actually changed at all.

[hamishspence]

In DStP, it's his attachment to Mr Scruffy that is described as the major change- giving him a redeeming feature.

[k_bukie]

He's doing a very bad job of faking no longer being completely psychotic, and that's what you call MAJOR character development? I have to wonder what you'd say he had if he actually changed at all.

He has changed, just not in the way he's trying to fake. With Mr. Scruffy, he now cares about something other than himself, and beyond the lust/hate toggle he used in the past for everything.

[SaintRidley]

Who's to say that this means he's just eager to watch Belkar die though?

I'll admit, my theory isn't rock solid, but even THEN- The whole world doesn't completely hate Belkar. Someone like Jenny, if she heard of his death, might pay quite a penny to bring him back. Or maybe someone else completely new or forgotten to us.

I really want to stress that this is Belkar's last breath. This is huge. Would the Giant seriously say: "Yep everyone, sucks to be Belkar, because the world hates him too much to bother to raise him." I would be bashing heads through walls if he did. And every other Oracle prophecy (that has a seperate plot around it) otherwise has been climatic. That one sounds rather... dull.

Haley had that long bit with Nale
Vaarsuvius had gone insane with "ultimate arcane power"
Roy had EVERYONE freak out that he forgot about Azure city
Belkar died from -insert cause of death here- and everyone hates him so he wasn't raised.

Think of it more like how Roy would see it.

The Oracle is an oracle and gives accurate predictions.
"Belkar will take his last breath. Ever." - so I have paraphrased the Oracle.
So when Belkar dies, why would Roy try to get Belkar raised? He has good reason to think it wouldn't work.


Besides, raising him would only serve to later bring needless pain and suffering into the world. Raising Belkar is almost certainly an evil act that just would not fly with Roy's conscience.

[Herald Alberich]

I'll admit, my theory isn't rock solid, but even THEN- The whole world doesn't completely hate Belkar. Someone like Jenny, if she heard of his death, might pay quite a penny to bring him back. Or maybe someone else completely new or forgotten to us.

I suppose that's possible, but Belkar has spent a lifetime doing his level best to be hated, though he didn't realize it until his Hippie Vision Quest. Jenny or others like her might feel a bit sad, but they're not likely to go to the trouble of raising him, which is a huge hardship if you're not mid- to high-level. Powerful people wouldn't bother with Belkar in that manner.

I really want to stress that this is Belkar's last breath. This is huge. Would the Giant seriously say: "Yep everyone, sucks to be Belkar, because the world hates him too much to bother to raise him." I would be bashing heads through walls if he did. And every other Oracle prophecy (that has a seperate plot around it) otherwise has been climatic. That one sounds rather... dull.

Haley had that long bit with Nale
Vaarsuvius had gone insane with "ultimate arcane power"
Roy had EVERYONE freak out that he forgot about Azure city
Belkar died from -insert cause of death here- and everyone hates him so he wasn't raised.

I don't think it fits nicely.

Well, it was a freebie, separate from the plot-tastic Strip of Prophecies. Belkar's other prophecy, the one from that strip, has been fulfilled. But I think Belkar's impending death will be dramatic for a reason other than its permanency. Epic battle, dies in defense of Mr. Scruffy (or vice-versa, then dies in battle raging at the cat's death), something like that.

But once he dies, there might be some angsting about whether he's redeemed himself and deserves to come back, but the consensus, I think, will be no.

Because the entire world doesn't hate him. And more importantly, Roy doesn't have a lot of people he can trust with this. Durkon has Resurrection prepared constantly, and lots of diamonds. I see no reason why he'd ignore Belkar. Because if Belkar dies, who replaces him who is guarenteed not going to screw with the Order?

The obvious first answer is: one of the four remaining paladins of the Sapphire Guard. Probably not Hinjo or Thanh, since they're busy leading people. If Roy wants a ranger, one of the elven allies. Maybe a fighting type that's risen through the ranks of the Azurites, like Daigo and Kazumi. The Order is not without allies here, and while few of them are as high-level as the Order, they're not worthless either.

Durkon's diamonds were stolen, and he has no reason to prepare Resurrection every day, but that's been addressed already.

Belkar has constantly proven his loyality, and he's useful as an Order member. If he were to randomly die, but his body was saved, I see little reason not to reraise him. Like I said- my theory doesn't contained hardcore evidence- but in any DND campaign, would you let a player's character stay dead, even if he were Evil? Of course not! So why is this different?

If you were roleplaying a good story, you might well leave him dead. The other points have been addressed: Belkar's loyalty is always suspect at best, and this isn't a game, despite the rules of the universe. It really is the fate of the world they're fighting over. Belkar is too much of a liability to justify the cost of raising him and the risk of returning him to the world.

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And don't bother mentioning the Astral Deva's warning to Roy. He batted her off easily as it was, and his logic was sound. He needs people, no matter what their alignment is, to defeat the Snarl and Xykon. Sure, he wants him to do as little evil as possible, and Death is a very good prison, but I think he needs to care MORE about saving the universe from destruction than letting fallen members rot in the ground because you're maximizing the chance that the party member won't run off and kill an innocent (which, to be fair, was rather long ago.) Belkar had MAJOR character development. He's no longer the crazy guy (or at least as much) that's in this quest to kill anymore.

Roy's logic is sound as long as Belkar is still alive. He's not going to just execute Belkar, that wouldn't be LG. Returning a Chaotic Evil psychopath to life after he's dead, though, is also not LG and may well be considered Evil. Because Belkar certainly is still the crazy murderer, he's just pretending not to be.

So because of that, I don't agree. You may be right, but your conclusion comes to me as anticlimatical and too simple. There must be more to it that Belkar would not ever live again. And, assuming Roy was right about them saving the world before the end of year, and assuming Belkar is alive before the final battles, then I stick to my theory. It has to be the Snarl.

Well, you may turn out to be right, but I don't see any reason why it can't be that simple. Belkar merely dying and not being Soul Bound or soul-destroyed or anything can still be quite a climactic ending for him, depending on the manner of the death.

[Adeptus]

The Giant is more clever than people give him credit for. I have a suspicion about Belkar "not being long for this world", but I think it's best I don't spoil it any further.

[Felecies]

That's Slaves.

Bountys tend to only care about "dead or Alive". Or possibly "Well enough to answer questions".

Does Elan look well enough to answer questions? Besides my bet is that the Empress has a personal grudge against Nale, and wants him conscious and somewhat unharmed for the full bounty. Think about when Red Cloak kept healing O-Chul for the daily torture segment.

[Felecies]

Heck WE know (although I don't think they did) that Sabine had Level drain on touch. The mere fact that he COULD grapple her without having his levels eaten down to nothing would clue any someone who knew Sabine.

Wait she has a level drain? then how did Roy have sex with her in strip 355? for that matter how did he fight her at all?

[SensFan]

Wait she has a level drain? then how did Roy have sex with her in strip 355? for that matter how did he fight her at all?

She has used level drain on someone before, Haley I think.
The whole point of the joke in 355 was that the 'anything' Roy wanted to do was throw her out a window, nothing else.
Level draining wouldn't happen just by fighting her.

[The MunchKING]

Does Elan look well enough to answer questions?

An hour of napping, he'll be FINE.

While he's no Final Fantasy charecter, RPG heros still get a lot back just by rest.

[DSCrankshaw]

An hour of napping, he'll be FINE.

While he's no Final Fantasy charecter, RPG heros still get a lot back just by rest.

Not in 3.5. Assuming he went below 0, but is stable, then without any help (which V can't provide), he won't recover HP until he becomes conscious (which he has a 10% chance of doing each hour), and instead, loses 1 hp (which can kill him if he goes to -10). Even once conscious, he only has a 10% chance of starting to regain hp each day, otherwise he loses 1 hp. An untreated character has a pretty high chance of dying, even if he manages to stabilize.

Assuming he does receive some non-magical treatment (from his captors, if no one else), he'll only recover his level in hp per day, or three times that with complete bed rest. So that's about 15 hp. Once he's conscious, he can cast his healing spells, but that doesn't heal a whole lot.

[RMcMurtry]

Doubt it.

The Oracle said it'd be before the end of the year. The Giant is probably not going to off Belkar that easily. Especially if it's his "last breath ever".

I mean, face it. If it's his last breath- ever-, Belkar's at a young age. Were he ever killed before the end of the story, Roy's likely to just have him raised.

So something must be stopping him from being raised.

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My money is that he gets eaten by the Snarl at the end of the story.

Have to disagree. All that's needed to stop him from being raised is Durkon refusing to do it, or being talked out of it. He's not required to cast the spell. Roy and Haley are both convinced Belkar's running a scam on them with his "changed behavior". I can easily see them refusing to have Belkar raised.

[slayerx]

Does Elan look well enough to answer questions? Besides my bet is that the Empress has a personal grudge against Nale, and wants him conscious and somewhat unharmed for the full bounty. Think about when Red Cloak kept healing O-Chul for the daily torture segment.

you really think the empress of blood is gonna care about having her local cleric burn a cure light wounds spell on a prisoner and/or possibly waiting a day (after already waiting X number of months) or to execute his punishment? cause really that's all it takes

Really the ONLY way she MIGHT refuse to pay them the bounty when "nale" is still alive is if he was in an outright coma that he was impossible to wake him up for years. I mean sure she's probably planning on killing him, but being unconscious takes all the fun out of it

[Kish]

Wait she has a level drain? then how did Roy have sex with her in strip 355?

...he didn't. Ew.

for that matter how did he fight her at all?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm Scroll down to "Energy drain and negative levels."

[Cealocanth]

I wonder if they're lackeys of the boss blue dragon eating spaghetti on that one strip. They are both dragonflok, and they seem like they know what they're doing.

[Shale]

They'd know who Bozzok is if they were from Greysky.

[lothos]

Well, Iothos, for that to occur, Girard would have to know about the Order from way earlier back when they were dungeon crawling and fighting at Azure City. Hard to get that kind of info off a single scry. Girard could cast other spells to research information but it seems a little elaborate to set something like this up. This is likely something to do with Nale's activities and the bounty hunters think that Elan is Nale.

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I still think the other members of the Order will enter the area rapidly and soon due to hearing the power word. They can locate V, Elan and Haley through magical means. Getting there is going to be a trick depending on how far away it is.

Is it not possible that Girad first found out about them while in the desert, then using some magic like legend lore or some epic spell he created, researched their history working back from that point ?

Note that I'm not asking if this is likely in real life, just if it's possible in this story :-) Even if it is possible in this story, doesn't make it likely in this story either. It's just an idea that occurred to me and I wanted to share.

The Giant is more clever than people give him credit for. I have a suspicion about Belkar "not being long for this world", but I think it's best I don't spoil it any further.

I think quite a lot of people in this forum give Rich quite a lot of credit for this sort of thing.

[factotum]

I think quite a lot of people in this forum give Rich quite a lot of credit for this sort of thing.

And there's quite a few who believe that he's not into yanking the chains of his readership and that Belkar is going to die, permanently, within the next few weeks.

[pjackson]

It was assumed a long time ago that Rich is not going with the official limits of the spell. Otherwise the wizard NPC who had nothing better to do with his life than get drunk in Cliffport (see strip #340) would have had to be 18th level,

Or have something that boost Teleport - there being at least one prestige class that does.

[pjackson]

4th edition has Dragon Born,

3.5 has Dragon Born too - though not quite the same - in Races of the Dragon.

[factotum]

Or have something that boost Teleport - there being at least one prestige class that does.

A prestige class that Tsukiko also apparently possesses AS WELL AS arcane caster, divine caster, and Mystic Theurge, given that she teleported herself and six Wights when Haley's gang attacked the granary in Azure City? I think it's easier to assume Teleport has higher limits in OotS-verse!