Need input on a 3.5 rogue please

[amaranth69]

I am currently working on a 3.5 rogue. I am going to be the party's main skill monkey, the only rogue in the party, although we will have a bard, which should wrap up the social skills. We are starting at level 8 and I was thinking of being a human so that I could get the able learner feat. Beyond that, I was thinking Rogue 3, Swashbuckler 3, Fighter 2. For feats I am thinking weapon focus (short sword), Improved initiative, Two weapon fighting, Mage slayer, and arterial strike,. This will be a greyhawk campaign and heavy on the fighting. How do you think it would hold up in melee?

[Amphetryon]

A listing of available books would be helpful. Knowing what your party's composition is aside from your build would be, as well.

[Eldariel]

I wouldn't bother with Fighter-levels. If you want Swashbuckler, that's fine, but your skills will hurt too much from Fighter and you don't need those feats all that bad. Swordsage is a much better dip if that interests you, and gives you some of the much-needed versatility, mobile combat capability and overall, more efficiency.

Also, fit in Craven [Champions of Ruin]. Honestly, that's the #1 thing for a Combat Rogue. Also, Daring Outlaw [Complete Scoundrel]. That makes your Swashbuckler-levels work out. So...yeah. That's about my suggestions in a nutshell.

[amaranth69]

A listing of available books would be helpful. Knowing what your party's composition is aside from your build would be, as well.

The DM has pretty much all of the 3.5 books, I only have PHB 1 and 2, complete mage, complete warrior, complete adventurer, and complete arcane. As for the party composition, other than myself we will have a fighter, cleric, a mage, and a bard.

[The Cat Goddess]

Pray that your party flanks...

I have played too many Rogues where the fighters just constantly charge around, the casters never summon monsters and my precious sneak-attack damage gets used maybe once per round.

Last time, I got fed up and went with Master Thrower (building the character to be "all throwing, all the time", Gloves of Endless Javelins ftw!) and two of the party ended up picking Monk & WarHulk!

[Eldariel]

Pray that your party flanks...

I have played too many Rogues where the fighters just constantly charge around, the casters never summon monsters and my precious sneak-attack damage gets used maybe once per round.

Last time, I got fed up and went with Master Thrower (building the character to be "all throwing, all the time", Gloves of Endless Javelins ftw!) and two of the party ended up picking Monk & WarHulk!

You could actually just use Wands of Grease/Greater Invis or just Marbles or such to set up SA for yourself. Though quick chat with the party Fighter on tactics tends to be productive, and Swordsage luckily comes complete with Distacting Ember to rid itself of such issues.

[The Cat Goddess]

You could actually just use Wands of Grease/Greater Invis or just Marbles or such to set up SA for yourself. Though quick chat with the party Fighter on tactics tends to be productive, and Swordsage luckily comes complete with Distacting Ember to rid itself of such issues.

After seven weeks of practically yelling "Flank! Why won't you Flank!?!" I decided that "quick chats" don't help.

[Curmudgeon]

or feats I am thinking weapon focus (short sword), Improved initiative, Two weapon fighting, Mage slayer, and arterial strike,.

I think you can improve these feat choices.

Short swords aren't the best Rogue weapons; they have a poorer critical threat range than rapiers. The threat range is important when you consider Craven, because that adds a constant to your sneak attack damage. Bonus dice aren't multiplied on a critical hit, but constants are. In any event, Weapon Focus is a weak feat -- but then you get it for free with Swashbuckler 1.

Improved Initiative is a decent feat. But do you really need it? You're going to have a better DEX than average. If you walk around with a missile weapon ready to fire you can get sneak attack damage against flat-footed opponents in the surprise round (because you'll be maxing out your Spot, of course), and a full ranged attack against any opponents who haven't acted yet. There should almost always be at least one choice here, even without Improved Initiative. (And this is always a better choice than wasting sneak attack opportunities by closing for melee.) In my considerable experience playing Rogues, Improved Initiative is just a way to get into melee before you've got a flanking partner in position. So not really as good a choice as you might think.

I almost always recommend against Two-Weapon Fighting for Rogues, for the following reasons:

• With only 3/4 BAB you can't afford attack penalties.
• You get no benefit from the feat unless you use a full melee attack. Which means your enemies get a full counterattack.
• The tree has poorer results for each additional feat, so why start?
• Rogues need more magic equipment than just about any other class. Why tie up your resources with 2x the cost for weapon enhancements?

Mage Slayer only prevents enemies from casting defensively. But they know all about your feat, so they can just step back 5' and cast something that isn't a touch spell instead; it really doesn't work out. Now, Pierce Magical Concealment has some solid benefit, except that's 3 feats to get there. Just not worth the investment.

Arterial strike actually makes sense if you expect to get in a lot of successful sneak attacks. If you've got a reliable flanking partner, it's a good choice; otherwise, probably not.

Now, as Eldariel already pointed out, Craven is the best possible Rogue (especially multiclassing Rogue) feat to take. And you don't want Rogue + Swashbucker without Daring Outlaw. This is solid advice.

If you want more melee hits I suggest Snap Kick (Tome of Battle); this gives you an extra unarmed attack whenever you make a melee attack. So, instead of just on full attacks, you also get an extra attack on

• standard action attacks
• attacks of opportunity
• bonus attacks (such as from Improved Trip)

Snap Kick requires Improved Unarmed Strike, which you can buy. Bracers of Striking (Magic of Faerûn) grant IUS for only 1,310 gp. If you've got more gp you can get that plus better damage with a Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic).

You're going to want to increase your critical threat range. A keen rapier is the way to go. But if you're low on gp, Improved Critical (rapier) is an OK choice, because you can retrain it later when you've got the money to get that weapon upgrade.

[PhoenixRivers]

Swapping Fighter levels with Ranger will still get you Two Weapon fighting, and better skill points.

[Kaiyanwang]

There could be a way to make the fighter dip worthy: take a look in Drow of the Underdark.

There is a fighter ACF allowing to lose heay armor proficency (useless for you) for a constant +2 in initiative and makes you able to add your dexterity modifier as a damage against flat footed opponents.

I guess that adding the very good and already suggested Craven, we can stack up a reasonable flat damage bonus (maybe adding in swashbuckler insightful strike too, but now there are 3 classes and I don't know what rules your group uses for multiclassing).

Take a rapier or some other 18-20 threat weapon and take advantage of it.

[Saint GoH]

Staggering Strike from Complete Adventurer. Whenever you sneak attack you limit yer foe to 1 standard action a round. Super helpful for when you nuke a mob and he decides to full attack action you. Limits it to only one.

Telling Blow from PHB 2 is also nice with large threat weps like the rapier. Allows you to add sneak attacks on a crit (useful when ally isnt flanking and you've dropped keen on yer rapier to make it a 15-20*2) even when not flanking/denying dex.

[MarvinMartian]

I have just one suggestion -

Regardless of what type of rogue you build - my experience is that they all need a Blink Ring (pg230 DMG) - basically you ensure that
a) when you hit (80% of the time) your target is denied dexterity bonus - HALLO sneak attacks!!
b) you have a permanent +2 attack bonus
c) area attacks do only 50% damage to you (if they cannot hit ethereal creatures and if you fail your saving throw)
d) opponents miss you 50% of the time!!
d-1) opponents that see invisible have miss 20%
d-2) opponents that can strike ethereal creatures have miss 20%
d-3) opponents that qualify for both d-1 & 2 have 0% miss chance
e) you move at 3/4 of your max speed.
f) you can move through material items (i.e. locked doors for example!!) with a 50% chance of incurring damage (1d6 per 5').

When I got this sweet lovely item for my rogue (my precious!), my DM decided it was too much cheese in the hands of my rogue and deemed that the ring could only be used for 7 non-consecutive rounds per day. However if RAW the ring can be used at the cost of 1 std action to activate and for 7 consecutive rounds - but can be activated as often as wanted.

Edit - It basically allowed me to go toe-to-toe with most enemies and do close (not as much - but close) to as much damage as the tanks and get hit very infrequently...

[Escheton]

factotum

3 lvls, any skill, including autohypnosis and more obscure skills.
int to str and dex skills and checks. Thats bullrush, trip, initiative, tumble, climb, jump, pick lock, sleight of hand etc
abililty to add int to attackroll or damage a couple of times per encounter.
And/or to a skillcheck 1/day per skill.

[MarvinMartian]

Hmm - If the idea of playing a humanoid jackal doesn't turn you off, look at Marrulurk (Sandstorm). 3 RHD +1 LA, but it gives 2 bonus feats, GREAT stats, great skill bonuses to rogue skills, +2d6 sneak attack, and some other stuff that is awesome for rogues.

[Lin Bayaseda]

Why not take Weapon Finesse instead of Weapon Focus? Assuming a normal rogue build, you'll have an average Strength and maximized Dexterity - so Weapon Finesse effectively adds +3 or +4 to your attack roll, and Weapon Focus only +1.
Definitely take Improved Init - winning initiative means not only an extra attack, but an extra Sneak attack. Yes, you will win init about 60-70% of the time with your superior dexterity, but why not make it 80-90%?
Make sure your Tumble skill modifier is +14 (easily achievable on this level), so you can make the DC15 check for tumbling past an enemy into a flanking position automatically.
For those times you can't get into flanking position, consider Improved Feint - although it requires INT 13 and a good Bluff skill as well, so might be problematic.
Never take Weapon Focus with a ranged weapon; if you really feel your ranged attacks need a boots, take Point Blank Shot instead. PBS will, most of the time, prove strictly better than ranged WF.

[Curmudgeon]

I was thinking Rogue 3, Swashbuckler 3 ...

... In any event, Weapon Focus is a weak feat -- but then you get it for free with Swashbuckler 1.

Why not take Weapon Finesse instead of Weapon Focus?

I think these quotes answer your question.

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

I actually have an off-beat suggestion: Drop your rogue levels. No, seriously.

For true rogue power, Be a Sneaky Thug Fighter (2 variants taken at the same time) from UA, then take whatever SA-Focused PrC you want (I suggest Ninja of the Crescent Moon, because you don't loose BAB or SA Progression)

[Kaiyanwang]

I actually have an off-beat suggestion: Drop your rogue levels. No, seriously.

For true rogue power, Be a Sneaky Thug Fighter (2 variants taken at the same time) from UA, then take whatever SA-Focused PrC you want (I suggest Ninja of the Crescent Moon, because you don't loose BAB or SA Progression)

That fighter variant does not have uncanny dodge, evasion, maybe penetrating strike, and almost twice the skillpoints.

It depends from what you want obtain.

[RagnaroksChosen]

In my daringoutlaw builds im a big fan of telling blow so i don't need to rely on flanking. Especialy with two kukri's.

realy all you need for stats is dex and int. every thing else is gravy.

I would go for feats like such:
twf, telling blow, craven, daring outlaw, improved init.


so for level 8 i would go
Swash 3/rogue 5
1. Telling blow
3. TWF
6. Daring outlaw

grab two kukri's get them keened asap.

[denthor]

After seven weeks of practically yelling "Flank! Why won't you Flank!?!" I decided that "quick chats" don't help.

DO NOT BE THE FIRST IN TO BATTLE.

Tumble (skill to maximum) for your flanks.

use a two handed spear (10 foot reach) for your flanks.

find a source for cats grace to help with tumble skill

Use rope is not really used

Hide, listen, spot are three more of your best skills Listen is the least important of the three.

Search may very well be useful

somebody said it but ranger is a better combo with the rouge.

if ranger wilderness survival is great even without the ranger take at least 1 point.

suggest 3 rogue/3 magic user/ 2 ranger is better combo.

cats grace invisibility are your main second level spells

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

That fighter variant does not have uncanny dodge, evasion, maybe penetrating strike, and almost twice the skillpoints.

It depends from what you want obtain.

Understandable, but that Full BAB gives a high chance of actually hitting things with High AC

[amaranth69]

I think these quotes answer your question.

you get weapon finesse for free with swashbuckler, not focus. I was going to take weapon focus then bring fighter to four for specialization.

[amaranth69]

I think you can improve these feat choices.

Short swords aren't the best Rogue weapons; they have a poorer critical threat range than rapiers. The threat range is important when you consider Craven, because that adds a constant to your sneak attack damage. Bonus dice aren't multiplied on a critical hit, but constants are. In any event, Weapon Focus is a weak feat -- but then you get it for free with Swashbuckler 1.

Improved Initiative is a decent feat. But do you really need it? You're going to have a better DEX than average. If you walk around with a missile weapon ready to fire you can get sneak attack damage against flat-footed opponents in the surprise round (because you'll be maxing out your Spot, of course), and a full ranged attack against any opponents who haven't acted yet. There should almost always be at least one choice here, even without Improved Initiative. (And this is always a better choice than wasting sneak attack opportunities by closing for melee.) In my considerable experience playing Rogues, Improved Initiative is just a way to get into melee before you've got a flanking partner in position. So not really as good a choice as you might think.

I almost always recommend against Two-Weapon Fighting for Rogues, for the following reasons:

• With only 3/4 BAB you can't afford attack penalties.
• You get no benefit from the feat unless you use a full melee attack. Which means your enemies get a full counterattack.
• The tree has poorer results for each additional feat, so why start?
• Rogues need more magic equipment than just about any other class. Why tie up your resources with 2x the cost for weapon enhancements?

Mage Slayer only prevents enemies from casting defensively. But they know all about your feat, so they can just step back 5' and cast something that isn't a touch spell instead; it really doesn't work out. Now, Pierce Magical Concealment has some solid benefit, except that's 3 feats to get there. Just not worth the investment.

Arterial strike actually makes sense if you expect to get in a lot of successful sneak attacks. If you've got a reliable flanking partner, it's a good choice; otherwise, probably not.

Now, as Eldariel already pointed out, Craven is the best possible Rogue (especially multiclassing Rogue) feat to take. And you don't want Rogue + Swashbucker without Daring Outlaw. This is solid advice.

If you want more melee hits I suggest Snap Kick (Tome of Battle); this gives you an extra unarmed attack whenever you make a melee attack. So, instead of just on full attacks, you also get an extra attack on

• standard action attacks
• attacks of opportunity
• bonus attacks (such as from Improved Trip)

Snap Kick requires Improved Unarmed Strike, which you can buy. Bracers of Striking (Magic of Faerûn) grant IUS for only 1,310 gp. If you've got more gp you can get that plus better damage with a Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic).

You're going to want to increase your critical threat range. A keen rapier is the way to go. But if you're low on gp, Improved Critical (rapier) is an OK choice, because you can retrain it later when you've got the money to get that weapon upgrade.

I like the idea of the rapier, I was going with short sword since it is a light weapon and can be wielded in the off hand, but if I drop TWF then it would be a non issue. Mage slayer also gives you a +2 bonus to will saves, like iron will with a little bonus.

[Mike_G]

you get weapon finesse for free with swashbuckler, not focus. I was going to take weapon focus then bring fighter to four for specialization.

Fighter four loses too many skill points if you are the designated Skill Monkey. Weapon Specialization isn't all that good, just +2 to damage. Losing four Rogue levels for Fighter levels is a net loss of 24 skill points.

If you want some more full BAB levels, take Ranger, take the 6 + Int skill points, and the two weapon feats. Sneak Attack with two light weapons, using Finesse is probably the best way to dish out the damage. There are many ways to get that Sneak Attack. If you do take Ranger, your Animal Companion can flank for you if nothing else.