[3.5] Fighterblading pt. II

[Paulus]

Ah~ fellow players, I humble myself before you in selfish need for your advice. Little while ago I bit the bullet to make a Warblade with some Fighter levels because I wanted to do melee in a D&D game for once in my life. So I worked out some jawesome maneuvers and had all my bases covered. THEN I threw some feats down and thought I could call it a day. Wow was I wrong. After rearranging the stats (32 pt. buy) to make use of the Warblade features I came up with. Str,Dex,Con:14, Int:16, and Wis,Con:10. A few Items later everything except Wis and Cha are at 20 meaning +5 mods. So I figure I'm pretty balanced except... defensively.

As we all know D&D is a caster's dream, if you want to tier it up you need casting. Melee especially PC melee just can't compete very well. High HP, fort and will saves are essential. So this lead me to look at my maneuvers and my saves. If I take Moment of Perfect Mind I'm golden, but only for one save. As a counter you can only use once until it's refreshed, meaning multiple casters can just spam me and I'm done for. Plus I'm using Wall of blades pretty often and until stance of Alacrity, I can only use one per-until refresh. Whereas feats to heighten will saves is a constant. ON TOP of this you have the problem of actually HITTING casters, and I came across "Pierce Magical Concealment" And I'm all like, Wow, nullify some of the strongest protections caster have in the game? for only three feats? AND the warblade gets one of them as a bonus feat? HOW CAN I MISS!?

But then came the issue of needing Scent, Blindsense, Tremorsense or some such to actually find which square they are in and I heard some of these can easily be gotten through feats, but I don't know which ones. BUT. I am also going the double-hander route, and it would be utter nonsense to miss using Power Attack+Shock Trooper+Leap Attack+Wall of Blades combo. But I also want a good Will save which requires a lot of feats. But now I also want Mageslayer so I can actually break through a caster defenses, but I also want, but I need, but I but I but I bu bu bu bu bu-! basically my feat choices are being stretched over a massive field of play. Then I seemed to recall an ability in unearthed arcana that lets you trade bonus feats for real feats. Does this work for warblade I wondered? SO.

tl;dr
Here is what I am asking.
My Stats are as follows:Str/Dex/Con:14, Int:16, and Wis/Con:10
This is my current feat selection.

Spoiler

Show

Warblade 1/ Fighter 2/Warble 17
1. ADAPTIVE STYLE (Level 1st)
1. POWER ATTACK [GENERAL] (Level 1 human)
2. EXOTIC WEAPON PROFICIENCY [GENERAL] (Fullblade) (Level 2 Fighter)
3. MAGE SLAYER [GENERAL] (Level 3rd)
3. IMPROVED BULL RUSH [GENERAL] (Level 3 fighter)
5. IRON WILL [GENERAL] (Level 5 warblade)
6. LEAP ATTACK (Level 6th)
9. ENDURANCE [GENERAL] (Level 9 warblade)
9. SHOCK TROOPER [TACTICAL] (Level 9th)
12. STEADFAST DETERMINATION [GENERAL] (Level 12th)
13. BLIND-FIGHT [GENERAL] (Level 13 warblade)
15. PIERCE MAGICAL CONCEALMENT [[GENERAL] (Level 15th)
17. DIEHARD [GENERAL] (Level 17 warblade)
18. INDOMITABLE SOUL [GENERAL] (Level 18th)

First, is this a good selection for achieving A: Awesome offense. B: Awesome Defense(via will saves) and C: Awesome offense against caster defense?

Second, do I need Scent, Blindsense, Tremorsense to make this work and where do I get any of them? Would taking Hunter's Sense instead of say Punishing Stance be a good option and what other options are there?

Thirdly, is this overkill? I have no idea what size will save one should normally have, nor if it will even matter against some of the more troublesome caster defenses. I'd have like to fit Scorpion's Resolve in there too... somehow... maybe exchange my Warblade Bonus 17th for it with Unearthed Arcane feat swap, would that work? Do I even need it?


Thank you all in advance for your patience and help.

[Koury]

Well, after just a quick glance, Endurance and Diehard can be done away with. Two feats for what amounts to 9 more HP? Only slightly better then Toughness. Unless they are prereqs for something I'm not aware of, drop them.

If you really must live until -9, take Shape Soulmeld: Rageclaws. Does the same thing, for one less feat. From Magic of Incarnum.

I'd drop Iron Will too, but thats just me. +3 will is not exactly impressive.

[Paulus]

Well, after just a quick glance, Endurance and Diehard can be done away with. Two feats for what amounts to 9 more HP? Only slightly better then Toughness. Unless they are prereqs for something I'm not aware of, drop them.

If you really must live until -9, take Shape Soulmeld: Rageclaws. Does the same thing, for one less feat. From Magic of Incarnum.

I'd drop Iron Will too, but thats just me. +3 will is not exactly impressive.

Iron Will (+2 to will btw) and Endurance are Prereqs for the Indomitable Soul and Steadfast Determination feats, but more so they are Warblade Bonus feats which come from a very small list and are basically free.

Diehard is just cause, and also because I have to choose from a Warblade bonus feat list. Also free. But I was wondering if one could switch it out using an unearthed arcane variant that worked for fighter bonus feats? could be wrong though. I'd totally ditch diehard for Scorpions resolve otherwise...

[Temotei]

Well, after just a quick glance, Endurance and Diehard can be done away with. Two feats for what amounts to 9 more HP? Only slightly better then Toughness. Unless they are prereqs for something I'm not aware of, drop them.

If you really must live until -9, take Shape Soulmeld: Rageclaws. Does the same thing, for one less feat. From Magic of Incarnum.

I'd drop Iron Will too, but thats just me. +3 will is not exactly impressive.

Iron Will only gives +2.

Ninja'd.

[Paulus]

Iron Will only gives +2.

Ninja'd.

No no, I'm a WARBLADE not a Swordsage! why do I derail my own threads so much?

[Koury]

Iron Will being only +2 only further reinforces my point!

(Excuse: Got mixed up with the flaws that lower saves)

[AdalKar]

I am not quite an optimizer and don't know dnd so well but why do you take the Fullblade? It costs you a feat and only gets you an average of 1 damage more (if I am correct here).
Take instead a feat for you power attack line or something like that. I think that would be a greater gain for you.

[Chen]

Whats the rest of the party composition? Being the absolute greatest mage killer doesn't help if there's a hoard of mooks in front of the mage you need to get through first. Also you seem pretty vulnerable to regular old hp damage. A lot of people focus on saves and such and then get killed by the power attacking ogre or something. Remember Wall of Blades is usuable once every 2 rounds. You can get a few more counters as well, but charging into a group of monsters is only going to one shot one of them at best, leaving you quite vulnerable.

[Paulus]

I am not quite an optimizer and don't know dnd so well but why do you take the Fullblade? It costs you a feat and only gets you an average of 1 damage more (if I am correct here).
Take instead a feat for you power attack line or something like that. I think that would be a greater gain for you.

It's the ultimate two handed weapon, plus for concept reasons, always wanted to make a character with a sword as big as he was. Guts, Cloud, Iron Sword style from Soul Calibur 3 etc. 2d8 dmg vs. 2d6 dmg isn't much I know, but when you factor in the awesome of a gigantic sword, it's too much! Also, what other feats for power attack are there?

Whats the rest of the party composition? Being the
absolute greatest mage killer doesn't help if there's a hoard of mooks in front of the mage you need to get through first. Also you seem pretty vulnerable to regular old hp damage. A lot of people focus on saves and such and then get killed by the power attacking ogre or something. Remember Wall of Blades is usuable once every 2 rounds. You can get a few more counters as well, but charging into a group of monsters is only going to one shot one of them at best, leaving you quite vulnerable.

Well I have the con item for +6 meaning my score will be 20 when I can afford it. And Yeah, I won't be leap attacking all the time for maximum Power Attack dmg to shock trooper AC with Wall of Blades counter. Others I'll be doing some full attacks insanity and what not with Quicksilver and Time Stands Still, etc. Don't know what party composition will be yet... but I figured I'd need some kind of defense against Casters as well as a way to get past THEIR defenses. I mean, how DOES melee handle that? Swing and hope? I figured some feat choices would greatly improve my ability to leap attack the wizard.... given the chance.

[Draz74]

As others have said, Exotic Weapon Proficiency isn't really worth it.

Combat Reflexes is awesome on any melee character with a Dex bonus. And it's on the Warblade's bonus feat list. I'd definitely take it, and probably Improved Initiative too, over Diehard.

[term1nally s1ck]

You get 4 Warblade Feats:

Blind Fight.
Combat Reflexes
Improved Initiative
Quick Draw

Indomitable soul is not that impressive.

EWP IS worth it...for a warblade. They gain proficiency in all Exotic weapons provided they can practice at the start of the day. This lets you have the spiked chains, and all the other nice exotics that most characters can't use.

Steadfast Determination is nice. But I'm still not sold on it. There are plenty of ways to avoid will negates effects without using a feat. You should be able to do it with items alone.

Iron Will can be gotten (thanks to complete scoundrel) by having been in the otyugh hole.

[Draz74]

EWP IS worth it...for a warblade. They gain proficiency in all Exotic weapons provided they can practice at the start of the day. This lets you have the spiked chains, and all the other nice exotics that most characters can't use.

Yes, let me amend what I said: EWP isn't worth it if you plan to use it mostly on a medium-sized Fullblade. If you have some crazy method in mind for making whole collections of exotic weapons useful, or even if you just plan to use a Kusari-Gama most of the time, then it's worth it.

[Paulus]

You get 4 Warblade Feats:

Blind Fight.
Combat Reflexes
Improved Initiative
Quick Draw

Indomitable soul is not that impressive.

EWP IS worth it...for a warblade. They gain proficiency in all Exotic weapons provided they can practice at the start of the day. This lets you have the spiked chains, and all the other nice exotics that most characters can't use.

Steadfast Determination is nice. But I'm still not sold on it. There are plenty of ways to avoid will negates effects without using a feat. You should be able to do it with items alone.

Iron Will can be gotten (thanks to complete scoundrel) by having been in the otyugh hole.

I've heard otherwise, especially against save or die. but...
Bolded for Emphasis, what ways? What items, please and thank you? How high should my will save normally be?

My current item list:
Spoiler

Level 16 200,000gp

Ring of Sustenance: Ring 2,
Travel Outfit: 5 lb.
+5 Mithril Chainmail of Nimbleness : Body, 25 lbs.
(+5 En bonus, +5 AC, +5 Max Dex, 0 ACP, 20% Spell fail, Light )
+1 Transmuting Fullblade: 12 lb. (2d8, 12 lb., 19-20/x2, Varies)
Handy Haversack: 5 lb.
Crystal of Adaptation: Armor Crystal
Vest of Resistance: Torso, 1 lbs.
Gloves of Dexterity: Hands,
Amulet of Health: Neck,
Belt of Giant Strength: Waist, I lbs.

Not much wiggle room price-wise. I don't even have a flight item. heh.

Yes, let me amend what I said: EWP isn't worth it if you plan to use it mostly on a medium-sized Fullblade. If you have some crazy method in mind for making whole collections of exotic weapons useful, or even if you just plan to use a Kusari-Gama most of the time, then it's worth it.
Well I DO wish to be prepared to use any weapon on hand, if I ever loose my own. Exotic reach weapon would go nicely with Mage Slayer, too. But again mainly I'm using EWP for a fullblade so I can go the sword-as-big-as-body concept. Guts, cloud, etc.

Improved Initiate or Combat Reflexes, which would be more beneficial switching out for diehard? especially at those high levels

[term1nally s1ck]

Ah. My apologies, I saw your selected feat at 18, and assumed more money would be available. At that level, you'll be relying on buffs to keep yourself from harm from spells. What kind of casters are in the party?

Also, if your party caster will have the ability to use a chained GMW, grab some +1 defending armor spikes. Boosted to +5, you can allocate all of that to AC.

Also, Animated shields are often a better source of AC than that last bonus on the armor, and you can still 2-hand.

Once I know what buffs you'll have access to, I can recommend some more items.

[Paulus]

Ah. My apologies, I saw your selected feat at 18, and assumed more money would be available. At that level, you'll be relying on buffs to keep yourself from harm from spells. What kind of casters are in the party?

Also, if your party caster will have the ability to use a chained GMW, grab some +1 defending armor spikes. Boosted to +5, you can allocate all of that to AC.

Also, Animated shields are often a better source of AC than that last bonus on the armor, and you can still 2-hand.

Once I know what buffs you'll have access to, I can recommend some more items.

EDIT: for clarity, I always plan up to 20 but I can only begin play as a 16.
Like I said I have no idea what the party make up will be, I'm just making a character who should be able to hold his own in melee, that means against everything. Hence the awesome offense, and high hp, and AC I've got covered. But not against casters, I need high will saves for that and a way to beat their magical defense against melee...

but as you said:

There are plenty of ways to avoid will negates effects without using a feat. You should be able to do it with items alone.

Which ones? What items? I have Vest of Resistance, what other items will boost my will save and negate a lot of the save or die that casters are so famous for?

[gallagher]

for a couple thousand gp, one can purchase Strongarm Bracers, which will allow you to hold a large fullblade. thats a whole extra die of damage

and if youw ant to spend that hour practicing, you could also try and get a jovar, which is an 18-20x2 crit. with strongarm bracers you can wield a large, which is 3d6, and since you will be swinging alot, you want to maximize your crit range to do extra damage, which also multiplies power attack damage IIRC

[Paulus]

for a couple thousand gp, one can purchase Strongarm Bracers, which will allow you to hold a large fullblade. thats a whole extra die of damage

and if youw ant to spend that hour practicing, you could also try and get a jovar, which is an 18-20x2 crit. with strongarm bracers you can wield a large, which is 3d6, and since you will be swinging alot, you want to maximize your crit range to do extra damage, which also multiplies power attack damage IIRC

oo! What book is a Jovar in?

[Keld Denar]

Planar Handbook

[Paulus]

for a couple thousand gp, one can purchase Strongarm Bracers, which will allow you to hold a large fullblade. thats a whole extra die of damage

and if youw ant to spend that hour practicing, you could also try and get a jovar, which is an 18-20x2 crit. with strongarm bracers you can wield a large, which is 3d6, and since you will be swinging alot, you want to maximize your crit range to do extra damage, which also multiplies power attack damage IIRC

Planar Handbook

hmmm wouldn't this be the same as wielding a Large Keen Greatsword?
Then again a Large Keen Jovar would be better I suppose...

Of course... then again, why not a Large Sunblade?
EDIT: Don't think you'd need Strongarm bracers to wield it... if it can be wielded as a shortsword then a large would be wielded as a longsword wouldn't it? No feat needed. Just lots of cash.

...ooooof course by that logic... A Huge Sun Blade could be wielded like a Greatsword. Lets not get silly and try the Gargantuan Sun Blade being wielded like a Bastard sword territory... sweet bahamut.

That can't be legal.

[term1nally s1ck]

AFAIK, nothing actually says that the wrong-size penalties don't apply.

[Paulus]

AFAIK, nothing actually says that the wrong-size penalties don't apply.

I got wrong anyway, It wouldn't be treated as a longsword but a large short sword. And a Huge Sunblade would be a huge short sword and so on...

Still...

[Koury]

I got wrong anyway, It wouldn't be treated as a longsword but a large short sword. And a Huge Sunblade would be a huge short sword and so on...

Still...

No, this isn't a longsword! Its just a huge dagger, duh!

[Paulus]

No, this isn't a longsword! Its just a huge dagger, duh!

Well if I have this right... a medium character can use a large short sword as a one handed, they can use a Huge short sword as a two handed weapon...

So therefore they could use a Large Sun Blade as a one handed weapon, and a huge Sun Blade as two handed weapon with size penalties of -2 and -4 respectively.

Monkey grip would eliminate the penalty for using Large Sun Blade with one hand, and I could wield a Huge Sun Blade one handed at a -2 penalty. But I could not wield a Gargantuan Sun Blade at all even with Monkey Grip

But if I wielded a Large Sun Blade two handed there would be no penalty, unless I tried to use it one handed then it would be at -2. Correct?

[term1nally s1ck]

I don't think so..it's still an inappropriately sized weapon, made for a larger character. It's been a while since I looked at the rules for this, though, so I may be completely wrong.

[Paulus]

I don't think so..it's still an inappropriately sized weapon, made for a larger character. It's been a while since I looked at the rules for this, though, so I may be completely wrong.

SRD: "A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. A weapon's designation is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all."

A short sword is a light weapon, so a large one would be a one handed weapon to a medium character with a -2 penalty and huge one would be a two handed weapon to a medium character with a -4 penalty.

So if one were to wield a one handed weapon with two hands, there shouldn't be a -2 penalty, like if you tried to wield it with one hand. But I'm more inclined to think there is a -2 penalty for size regardless if you use it one or two handed simply because RaW is crazy like that...

But if I took Monkey Grip instead of Exotic Weapon proficiency, or bought a Strong Arm Bracer, I could use a Large Sun Blade without penalty in one or two hands easy.

It would take a Monkey Grip or Strong Arm Bracer to use a Large Greatsword too...
and it would take Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Strongarm or Monkey grip to wield a Large Jovar... as everyone suggested.

In any case. I think I'd go with Large Greatsword so it only took Monkey Grip or Strongarm Bracers... 3d6 as opposed to 3d8... and if I took Strongarm Bracers I could free up a feat... so there is Scorpions Resolve... EDIT: and if Indomitable Will isn't so great, what should I take instead?

At least... until I find out what other items can easily protect my Will save...

[term1nally s1ck]

It's actually logical.

If the handle is designed to be gripped by a creature whose hands are a certain size, it'll be too thick/thin, and too long/short for them. Plus, a Huge dagger will be a very different proportion to a longsword, much thicker in comparison to it's length, and the balance point will be all wrong.

As for the other feat, if you have combat reflexes, grab one of the feats that lets you take a 5' step if you take an AoO, in addition to the attack (sidestep, in the miniatures handbook, iirc...and one in the dragon mags, too.)

[Paulus]

It's actually logical.

If the handle is designed to be gripped by a creature whose hands are a certain size, it'll be too thick/thin, and too long/short for them. Plus, a Huge dagger will be a very different proportion to a longsword, much thicker in comparison to it's length, and the balance point will be all wrong.

As for the other feat, if you have combat reflexes, grab one of the feats that lets you take a 5' step if you take an AoO, in addition to the attack (sidestep, in the miniatures handbook, iirc...and one in the dragon mags, too.)

Okay, but that would leave my will saves much lower... still haven't heard from you what items increase it aside from Cloak of Resistance. I mean, It's gotta be high, so, what others items increase it so it is easily taken care off? If I have those items I can get rid of a bunch of feats!

[Draz74]

Okay, but that would leave my will saves much lower... still haven't heard from you what items increase it aside from Cloak of Resistance. I mean, It's gotta be high, so, what others items increase it so it is easily taken care off? If I have those items I can get rid of a bunch of feats!

Crystal Mask of Mindarmor (XPH, updated in MIC). 10k gp, +4 insight bonus to Will saves.

Also Mind Vault (MIC): essentially lets you use Moment of Perfect Mind 1/day without Readying it.

EDIT: Also Wisdom-boosting items, obviously. Probably not economical for a Warblade until high levels, though.

[term1nally s1ck]

You can't get the list of immunities you need with that amount of wealth, and boosts to saves are mostly spells at this level. As I say, what casters are about?

The two above are good boosts, and would be my usual picks at this level, but I'd just like to comment that moment of perfect mind doesn't need to be readied, it's a counter.

[Draz74]

The two above are good boosts, and would be my usual picks at this level, but I'd just like to comment that moment of perfect mind doesn't need to be readied, it's a counter.

Um. Why on earth would a counter not need to be readied?

Counter. Not Stance.