Optimization in an Un-Optimized World.

[Saint GoH]

Greetings Giants.

I have come upon a conundrum with my group of PC's. There are roughly 5 people (not including myself) who play this game, and most have midlevel experience (8-10). Prepare yerself for a wall of text with a tl;dr at the end.

The problem that I am having is the polar opposites I play with. Myself and another are fairly heavy into opti-fu. We feel characters are meant to be heroes, and should kick enough butt to be considered so. Also, because of some other players we feel we need to make characters that can save the party if need be. We don't spend hours and hours optimizing, but we do spend a bit of time thinking about it.

Across the board are players who frankly feel that characters are characters, and of no concern. They build them the night we play, about 5 mins before game time, and more often then not they don't even have feats chosen till midway through play (I have literally heard 3-4 hours in "Oh, I have a feat!" ). As such, they tend to have... for lack of a better word... worthless characters. I know it sounds cruel, but they are painfully poorly built, and refuse to accept help.

The other 2 are fairly neutral. They are into building characters, but simply don't have the experience or the knowledge to really optimize it all. These two players would like their girlfriends to play, and I for one am all for the idea. However, we have an issue.

The nonoptimizers feel that with the addition of two more players, their characters will be pushed even farther away from the rest. They already feel that the optimizers do most of the work, so their characters are really only there for role play or to add numbers.

tl;dr

I have too many players and some are upset at the addition of more and the fear that players with more time to actually think will make the session boring/ no longer fun for the non-optimizers.

Basically what would you guys suggest? How do I make it fun for the people who don't care? Especially while making the moderate to elite players feel welcome?

[Paulus]

mmm. I'd go over character creation with your friends, or basically, have a sit down and talk with them about what they WANT to contribute to the game role wise and role play wise. Tank? Sneak? Buffer? etc? In such a case help them narrow down what they wish to do, and then if need be pre-build a character for them that follows these tangents. And have a list of special things they can do easy to pick from. Skill Abilities. Rolls. etc. In other words simplified character sheet.

Crunch the number for them and pick builds that are already 'good at this or that' without having to memorize a great deal of rules. In this way THEY are taken care of and can ask you about certain things on their list until they get comfortable enough to run on their own.

This gives you and the other optimizers something to work with, as in, you guys love to optimize so do it for them, but make it user friendly enough that ANYONE can pick up and play it, but DESIGNED around their concepts so it's inclusive to them from the get go. Now you have your casuals taken care of, lets get to the optimizers.

Have them DE-optimize high tiers or OVER-optimize low tiers to fit the bill of what your party lacks. Since I am sure they enjoy the challenge of optimizing, they will get a real kick out of making a character work in these conditions that need to be optimized too. Lean heavily on support instead of scene stealing or solo, naturally, and of course always make sure that if they need to do something like -buff the casuals- that they have perhaps cards that can be placed along side the sheets of the casuals for reference.

But above all make it a team effort. Also. If they wish to bring in new people, as in totally new, have the 'teaching theses new people how to play' experience bleed onto teaching the people who have played for a while. Not only can you get them to help explain what they already know with you, but it can ALSO re-cement the basics you want them to know.

THIRDLY, the world itself need not be optimized to the extreme, just makes sure your encounters are geared enough to where each player -already optimized to fit a role which can handle that encounter- actually works in favor of THEM solving it so they don't feel useless. And they aren't useless as long as they understand what is going on and can pick what to do added by their cheat sheet, cards, and play experience.

and for the optimizers, you can have special challenges that THEY can shine in, such as, having the casuals solve so and so puzzle while the optimizers hold back this baddie, army, horde etc. Or vice versa.

Expand, learn, and make mistakes. But above all, have fun!

Also, consider if the play base gets to large and you are tired of DMing, a rotation among the optimizers and casuals so they can better learn the game even more and spread the work load. THAT way yo can have casual games and optimized games and EVERYBODY plays a part! wheeeee!

[Aharon]

I found that the tomes by Frank, K and the TGDMB community offer some classes that are easy to play and cover the archetypes in a non-sucky way (assassin, barbarian, ...). Just don't let the optimizers in your group use them, or you'll have power discrepancy again.

[Tytalus]

To expand upon Paulus' points, you basically have the following options to consolidate optimizers and non-optimizers:

• Help the non-optimizers with their characters (see Paulus' point above). Unless your friends believe that optimizing prevents them from roleplaying, everybody wins (hey, if you enjoy optimizing, you can do even more of it). The simplified character sheet is an excellent idea, too, one which I have successfully used in my game.
• Optimized lower tiers vs. non-optimized higher tiers (see also above). Might work, but if the gap is too large, the tiers do little to help. It's not too hard to screw up even a tier one class. Still, can't hurt.
• Optimized builds for party benefit. The real problems are not optimized builds, but those that are too self-reliant, and are thus threatening to steal the show. Instead, optimize buffer builds and power multipliers. This makes the non-optimizers shine with any kind of build.
• You can use sub-optimal tactics with an optimized build, such as hindering enemies instead of taking them out or spending your actions to build up strong defenses or heal. You could give your character a trait that he will save his strongest options (spells) for situations of dire need only, etc. I'm not talking about completely gimping your character(s), but to avoid stealing the show. You can still be viciously effective. Debuffer builds are an example.
• Suggest classes to the non-optimizers that are difficult to get wrong. Wizards, sorcerers (most full casters), fighters, etc. can be terrible if DE-optimized. However, there are classes that are very difficult to screw up, granting you a decent power level (and thus the ability to meaningfully contribute) even with a haphazard character creation. Examples are the Tome of Battle classes (Warblade, Crusader, Swordsage), Duskblade, Beguiler, Dragonfire Adept, Dread Necromancer, and - to a lesser extent - Warlock, (Lion Totem) Barbarian. I think this is a much safer bet than to rely on the tiers (see above).

Good luck!

[taltamir]

this is why I am against the whole "metagame is evil, always" notion...

I think you need to all sit down and metagame a solution. talk about the issue, discuss the appropriate power levels, then adjust every character up or down to match. Talk about the party roles and make sure everyone has a role... Note that in 3.5 there are classes who don't fill any role. Those have been noted and ridiculed by char oppers... if someone wants one of those, ask them what it is they want to really play and suggest alternatives (classic example, unarmed swordsage instead of monk)

Those who would like to optmize but can't? show them these forums, and more importantly, show them the character handbooks found on brilliant gameologists..

the biggest issue seems to be whether the guys who have useless characters are stormwinding or are they just too busy / not care and thus produce crap characters.
If they are stormwinding it might be a case of incompatible gameplay styles... as the char oppers will never agree to handicap their heroes to the stormwind levels, and the stormwinders will never agree to beef up their characters or let you help them beef it up.

Although, remember that sometimes you just can't help people...
I had a game recently where our party tank refused to allow me to cast enlarge person on him... he didn't want the penalty to AC you see :P... so he passed on what is arguably the best possible buff... no matter how hard I tried to convince him it is a good buff he didn't want it.
And I am now having a debate about optimization fu that is very frustrating on this forum: http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8003

Hopefully your case would be more resolvable... because I really don't know what to advise you if some of your guys just refuse to see reason...

[Fizban]

They build them the night we play, about 5 mins before game time, and more often then not they don't even have feats chosen till midway through play (I have literally heard 3-4 hours in "Oh, I have a feat!" )...
The nonoptimizers feel that with the addition of two more players, their characters will be pushed even farther away from the rest. They already feel that the optimizers do most of the work, so their characters are really only there for role play or to add numbers.

I don't see how any of this is your problem. If they refuse to spend time building their characters, then they should expect to be pushed aside in combat where they're practically useless. My question is: are they unhappy because their characters aren't being useful, or because they think the group is already full and don't want more players joining?

If they were spending time on their characters and the group just needed to find a common power level, then that's one thing, but they have no right to complain about you doing all the work when they refuse to do any work. The way you've worded it, it sounds like the problem is more of having useless characters than having new players joining, and they haven't even thought about why that is. If I sound harsh it's because I'm being harsh: this kind of behavior is just inexcusable to me. It's like showing up for a test without having been to class at all: why are you wasting my time?

[Riffington]

I'm seeing 3 problems here. Optimization is the smallest, and I'd actually ignore it for now.
A larger problem is that you've already got 5 people, and the spotlight's getting dim as is. Expanding to 7 is tough - how are you going to avoid the "here I am sitting around while other people do stuff" problem?
A still larger problem is you are bringing in players' girlfriends. That will totally change the play dynamic. Are any of your 5 players girls to begin with? Do your players spend 100% of the time playing, or is some spent discussing Optimus Prime?

[potatocubed]

A group of more than 6 is a disaster in the making. Even more so in this case, since more players tends to highlight and worsen discrepancies in character effectiveness - once you've got more than four PCs niche protection starts getting hard to maintain, and with eight I can guarantee the least skilled character builders will be totally marginalised.

Have you considered splitting into two groups? With 8 + GM you're good for a group of 4 and a group of 5, and you can perhaps divvy up the optimisers and non-optimisers so that they don't tread on each others' toes so much.

[The Glyphstone]

Although, remember that sometimes you just can't help people...
I had a game recently where our party tank refused to allow me to cast enlarge person on him... he didn't want the penalty to AC you see :P... so he passed on what is arguably the best possible buff... no matter how hard I tried to convince him it is a good buff he didn't want it.
And I am now having a debate about optimization fu that is very frustrating on this forum: http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8003

...

I think you're wasting your time there, those are the same people who decided a Paladin should fall for letting one of their friends take part in a drinking contest...

[Emmerask]

Greetings Giants.

I have come upon a conundrum with my group of PC's. There are roughly 5 people (not including myself) who play this game, and most have midlevel experience (8-10). Prepare yerself for a wall of text with a tl;dr at the end.

The problem that I am having is the polar opposites I play with. Myself and another are fairly heavy into opti-fu. We feel characters are meant to be heroes, and should kick enough butt to be considered so. Also, because of some other players we feel we need to make characters that can save the party if need be. We don't spend hours and hours optimizing, but we do spend a bit of time thinking about it.

Across the board are players who frankly feel that characters are characters, and of no concern. They build them the night we play, about 5 mins before game time, and more often then not they don't even have feats chosen till midway through play (I have literally heard 3-4 hours in "Oh, I have a feat!" ). As such, they tend to have... for lack of a better word... worthless characters. I know it sounds cruel, but they are painfully poorly built, and refuse to accept help.

The other 2 are fairly neutral. They are into building characters, but simply don't have the experience or the knowledge to really optimize it all. These two players would like their girlfriends to play, and I for one am all for the idea. However, we have an issue.

The nonoptimizers feel that with the addition of two more players, their characters will be pushed even farther away from the rest. They already feel that the optimizers do most of the work, so their characters are really only there for role play or to add numbers.

tl;dr

I have too many players and some are upset at the addition of more and the fear that players with more time to actually think will make the session boring/ no longer fun for the non-optimizers.

Basically what would you guys suggest? How do I make it fun for the people who don't care? Especially while making the moderate to elite players feel welcome?

Take very suboptimal base classes, monk, ninja, samurai etc and optimize from there on, problem solved.

[Irreverent Fool]

Play 4e core.

Or Lords & Labyrinths or Mazes & Monsters. When there is little optimization to be had, there is little problem balancing optimization.

I have the same problem as the OP, though over the years I've managed to bring the other players around a bit. They understand that fluff can be shifted over to a different batch of crunch. Any class can be a paladin, it doesn't have to be one with built-in crippling effects.

The thing is, they probably view you as a powergamer/munchkin.

obnoxious
sig

[Lycanthromancer]

If it's a case of the non-optimizers wanting to play, but just not having the time, then split into two groups and have the optimizers help them build their characters.

If it's just a case of them not giving a damn about building their characters, then kick them out and bring in some new players. After all, if they don't care enough about your game and the other players to actually spend 30 minutes building a character, then they don't want to play enough to actually, y'know, play.

Are the girlfriends in question passably familiar with, and interested in, the game? If so, bring them in as the new players. If they're just joining to spend more time with their respective significant others, be very very wary about bringing them in, because unless they do develop interest in the game, you'll end up with a group that collapses as the GFs monopolize the BFs' time, and when you finally ask for them to leave they'll probably try to take their BFs with them.

[eepop]

1) Find a level you like to DM at.
2) Have a session where you don't play, but you all work together to make characters that are
---a) On an even tier mechanically.
---b) Are interesting characters from a roleplay perspective.
---c) Have a reason to adventure together.
---d) Fit the adventure setting(s) you have planned.
3) Play at that level, with those characters, and don't level up regularly. If it becomes necessary to play at a different level, return to step 1.

If you are playing 3rd edition, I would suggest 8th level. That gives lots of room for different character options, and is at a reasonable caster/non-caster balance point.
If you are playing 4th edition, I would suggest 12th level. Characters concepts seem to "gel" very well at around that level. and you have a lot of good options with the encounter building budget at those levels.

[Saint GoH]

Gah. Sorry mates, I knew posting just before falling asleep would be an issue.

Let's start from the top....

• I'd love to build them characters (or at least have the optimizers do it for me) but they are big on "Do it Yourself" and dis-like when I even suggest feats for them (which may be a problem in and of itself). So the whole idea of "What do you want to play? Sneak? Great. Do this." is out of the question. The new players I think I will do that (just to ease them into it), but the original non-opto's have been playing for close to a year and would prolly take it as an insult

• The world generally isn't optimized to the extreme. There are a few pretty powerful NPC's but these generally stay out of the way of the party (The general for the army, for instance, is lvl 20. They've never spoken to him.)

• The stormwind has appeared on more then one occasion (even though they have never heard of it before ((gasp!))) but I don't feel thats the issue. But I agree with Fizban, it appears that they refuse to do any of the work, so we do all of the work. Of course when new players come in intending to fulfill a role the people with no role are going to feel pushed out.

• The player's girlfriends have actually sat in on a session or two, asked questions, read some books, looked over sheets and what not. Been pretty active in terms of teaching themselves. Which is breaking the stereotype (thank god) that I have started to create because our two "hopeless" players are, in fact, females.

• The final thing to address is how much we talk about Optimus Prime as opposed to actually playing. Alot as is. Which I can definitely see 2 more causing the problem to worsen. It seems like a party break up and multiple games is the best choice. Although the co-ordination of that will be a colossal disaster in and of itself.

• Curse you eepop The issue I have with that mostly is starting players out at a level above 1, they really don't have a grasp on their characters. Even the neutral folks get confused when they try and make a character at lvl 7 because they simply don't have the experience with that character (or in general yet), and the non-optimizers get confused by simple level 1 characters so just tossing em into level 7 would boggle their mind.

Thanks for the input Giants. It's nice to know other people deal with power-gaps

[Swordgleam]

Why not split the group? It's a large group already, you want to add two more. So why not have a group of optimizers and a group of non-optimizers. Assuming you can find someone to DM the second group, everybody wins.

[Yakk]

I'd love to build them characters (or at least have the optimizers do it for me) but they are big on "Do it Yourself" and dis-like when I even suggest feats for them (which may be a problem in and of itself). So the whole idea of "What do you want to play? Sneak? Great. Do this." is out of the question. The new players I think I will do that (just to ease them into it), but the original non-opto's have been playing for close to a year and would prolly take it as an insult

Of course. I mean, in combat you take all of the spotlight -- and now you want to take over in character building as well?

You might want to think about what game system you are playing in.

[*]The stormwind has appeared on more then one occasion (even though they have never heard of it before ((gasp!))) but I don't feel thats the issue. But I agree with Fizban, it appears that they refuse to do any of the work, so we do all of the work. Of course when new players come in intending to fulfill a role the people with no role are going to feel pushed out.

Why would someone who doesn't read online gaming forums have heard of the stormwind fallacy?

They want to toss together characters of their own choosing, and they don't want to be overshadowed in play by people who are better at making characters. These are not unreasonable things to want.

I'm guessing you are playing 3e? Both 3e and 4e have problems with large groups of players.

][*]The final thing to address is how much we talk about Optimus Prime as opposed to actually playing. Alot as is. Which I can definitely see 2 more causing the problem to worsen. It seems like a party break up and multiple games is the best choice. Although the co-ordination of that will be a colossal disaster in and of itself.

I suspect people where talking about that because they figured that women wouldn't want to talk about Optimus prime (ie, Boyz zone crap).
---

A good way to deal with power gaps is to play a game with a power baseline that isn't broken accidentally.

Another good way is to play the "optimize to a target" game with your characters. Instead of optimizing for maximum power level (and, as you aren't playing pun-pun, you aren't going for real max power), aim for a power level similar to the rest of the party.

How powerful your party is is a function of how tough your party is compared to the world, not an absolute function of your character's abilities. If your DM is willing to pay in sync with your parties power level (reduced after the optimisers pull back), then there shouldn't be much problem.

If you want to have fun optimising, find a hard thing to optimize (a character concept that doesn't work in your game, for example), or even throw in a fluff tax where you spend character resources on the wrong things (like a level 3 fighter/level 1 rogue/level 2 bard/level 1 wizard) to keep your power level down.

Such a character build, in the hands of an optimizer, could easily match the power of a strait level 7 wizard, or barbarian, or druid, and not suffer unduly for spotlight time. It wouldn't be as dominating in combat as a really optimal build, but the problem you have is that a handful of players are dominating the spotlight in combat.

[ryzouken]

At 8 players you really should break into two groups. I'd lump the non optimizers with the mid optimizers and take the new players with the optimizers to begin with. The optimizers will be able to teach the new players the game system better (as they have a better grasp of it) and the removal of "crutch" optimizers from the non optimizers will either engender independence (by forcing them to improve their play skills) or frustrate them into quitting, which all told may not be too far down the road for them anyway.

Our epic level group is 8 strong, which works great for epic level play where combat doesn't matter (sling spells until we figure out what works while our melee guys beat on them, or try to. Is it dead? Cool, back to RP.) but when we went to a lower level game (of Pathfinder, which I ended up running) we cut two of our players who were least able to show up.

[jiriku]

Yeah, it's totally a chronic issue everywhere.

The root of it that I've found, is that if you really want to play D&D, it's best to form a group of other people who also really want to play D&D. People who refuse to show up with characters built do not qualify as really wanting to play.

When there's a disagreement about how to play the game or who should be invisted, it's often wise to give the most consideration to the players who are most invested in the game, and the least consideration to those who show the least commitment.

[Riffington]

I suspect people where talking about that because they figured that women wouldn't want to talk about Optimus prime (ie, Boyz zone crap).

Partly (although it's not crap - having some boys' time/girls' time is healthy, and is ruined by adding in SOs). It is separately true that the larger a game is, the harder it is to keep everyone on target, so I was curious how bad it was. Given that it's a problem as is, it'll be unworkable if you go to 7.

I'd lump the non optimizers with the mid optimizers and take the new players with the optimizers to begin with.

If you split the game, you have to divide it "people bringing SOs" and "people not bringing SOs". Which ends up meaning nonoptimizers in one group; newbies in the other group. The other optimizer can be in either group (or DM).

[Paulus]

Gah. Sorry mates, I knew posting just before falling asleep would be an issue.

Let's start from the top....

Yes, lets!

• I'd love to build them characters (or at least have the optimizers do it for me) but they are big on "Do it Yourself" and dis-like when I even suggest feats for them (which may be a problem in and of itself). So the whole idea of "What do you want to play? Sneak? Great. Do this." is out of the question. The new players I think I will do that (just to ease them into it), but the original non-opto's have been playing for close to a year and would prolly take it as an insult

YOU DARE TO SUGGEST THINGS TO YOUR PLAYERS SO THEY CAN HAVE FUN IN YOUR GAME!? HOW DAAAAARRREEE YOU! Seriously, if they don't wish to fall behind either split into two groups, and rotate DM's with those casuals so they KNOW how much work it is you do FOR them to have fun, or tell those casuals maybe D&D isn't the game for them. It's obvious this will put a lot of strain on you. And if they still expect you to please everybody then they will have to actually pull their weight if they want to pull their weight. It is simple, if they don't wish to fall behind, then THEY should work so they DON'T fall behind. It is not your responsibility to make sure everyone has the right characters for them. I simply suggested the kindest method of helping them if indeed you wish to help them give you more work.

But now it seems they are more inclined to simply walk all over you. In which case I think they need some humility, as in, YOU DM if you think it is so easy. They want you to cater to their needs but without helping them? Yet they won't even accept help if you explain it to them? Fine, then do not help them. let them fall behind and when they complain, remind them you tried to help them but they didn't want it... Also remind them if they think it is so easy to cater to everybody needs and please everyone while running a game, then they should try it sometime. There is no excuse for not understanding a game and yet whining it to make it easier for them by making it harder on you.

They should be happy to even play. I know I am.

• The stormwind has appeared on more then one occasion (even though they have never heard of it before ((gasp!))) but I don't feel thats the issue. But I agree with Fizban, it appears that they refuse to do any of the work, so we do all of the work. Of course when new players come in intending to fulfill a role the people with no role are going to feel pushed out.

Exactly, see above. Don't be afraid to set down some rules if they want to play in YOUR game. Rules such as, 'you must at least know how to make a standard character with feats, skills, class abilities, and so forth' especially if you are taking on extra players and don't rotate DM's or even split.

• The player's girlfriends have actually sat in on a session or two, asked questions, read some books, looked over sheets and what not. Been pretty active in terms of teaching themselves. Which is breaking the stereotype (thank god) that I have started to create because our two "hopeless" players are, in fact, females.

Maybe they'll show the hopeless ones how it is done and sed hopeless ones will be shamed by their eagerness to learn and memory attention and gratefulness to play that they will get the hint and finally decided and Lyco said, PLAY if they want to PLAY.

• The final thing to address is how much we talk about Optimus Prime as opposed to actually playing. Alot as is. Which I can definitely see 2 more causing the problem to worsen. It seems like a party break up and multiple games is the best choice. Although the co-ordination of that will be a colossal disaster in and of itself.

Not if you rotate DMing and you make it clear that for YOUR games there is a general chatter buffer of about ten minutes before game, but afterwards, focus on the game. Pauses in between for discussion should last no longer then five minutes, especially if everybody really wants to PLAY. Can vary per group actually, maybe you can have more chat time with your casuals in one group vs. more game time with your optimizers in the other.

also, rotate DMing.

• Curse you eepop The issue I have with that mostly is starting players out at a level above 1, they really don't have a grasp on their characters. Even the neutral folks get confused when they try and make a character at lvl 7 because they simply don't have the experience with that character (or in general yet), and the non-optimizers get confused by simple level 1 characters so just tossing em into level 7 would boggle their mind.

MY group had me start playing at level 15. I had never played before. I sucked it up and learned everything the hard way with study and vigor, because I am just happy to play. Even if it IS online, because there are no DMs or even other players where I live. Believe me I've looked. Playing D&D is a privilege, a luxury, not a right.

Thanks for the input Giants. It's nice to know other people deal with power-gaps

Not a problem, I would just hope to make it clear to you it is a game, it's suppose to be fun for everyone, and that includes YOU. They don't get to make these demands just because you are the DM, they should realize how lucky they are to even HAVE a DM who DOESN'T make them rotate and DOES suit their needs and DOES allow girlfriends at the table... in fact you tolerate a lot more than I world, and I've directed a play single handedly. I how much work goes into just telling a story with friends, let alone before a paying audience. My cast was seven people for a thirty minute play, trust me... I lost my voice from stress. Don't do that to yourself. Realize YOU have some rights and some rules you can throw down.

[Gorbash]

I'm playing in a group of 6 (+ the DM) with mix and match of optimizers, neutral and waste of space, so I can give you some first hand experience:

First of all, even 6 players is too much. The combat drags on, nobody gets enough spotlight (or if they do, some don't get any). So, you most definitely shouldn't invite 2 more players to a group that has an ideal number of players.

Second, the issue with optimizers vs. non-optimizers. Yeah, that one is a pain in the neck. But from what I've seen, people who aren't intrested in building their characters usually don't care how they fare in combat, so it's really not an issue. This may or may not apply to your players, but simple logic suggests that if they aren't happy with their performance in combat - they'll do something about it.

As I've said my group has 6 players:

- Me, as the one who's most knowledgable about rules and optimization (but choose not to optimize to full potential lest I attract the wrath of the DM). I play a Batman Wizard.
- Cleric, who reads charop forums and knows what's OP and what isn't, but can't optimize on his own.
- Barbarian, who's neutral about the whole thing (he neither sucks, nor does he optimize). Cleric and me buff him and he's happy slicing and dicing.
- Rogue/Bard/Invisible Blade - dies often because of his crappy saves at 15th lvl and doesn't contribute much unless he miraculously succeed at his attack rolls. He's the worst player (mechanics-wise) that I've seen, but a good roleplayer.
- Ranger/Beastmaster - little to no damage output, he sucks and he knows it, but it doesn't bother him.
- Sorcerer - DM's girlfriend. I have no idea why she even plays, since it's usually the DM that suggests her course of action.

[Saint GoH]

- Sorcerer - DM's girlfriend. I have no idea why she even plays, since it's usually the DM that suggests her course of action.

Oh you deal with that too? I've actually started penalizing people for telling certain characters what to do next (OOC).

[Gorbash]

Well, since her response to nearly anything happening is "I cast Fireball" (even agains Red Dragons and at lvl 15, mind you), it's usually for the best...

[Paulus]

Well, since her response to nearly anything happening is "I cast Fireball" (even agains Red Dragons and at lvl 15, mind you), it's usually for the best...

But fireballs are awesome...

[Eldariel]

But fireballs are awesome...

Balls of fire are awesome. Fireballs aren't even hot (seriously, they deal less damage than lava immersion).

[Paulus]

Balls of fire are awesome. Fireballs aren't even hot (seriously, they deal less damage than lava immersion).

Well yeah... lava is molten rock, fireballs are just fire... balls.
Still pretty hot though, just ask that commoner.

[Kylarra]

Well, since her response to nearly anything happening is "I cast Fireball" (even agains Red Dragons and at lvl 15, mind you), it's usually for the best...

Well, that just means she needs searing spell.

[Gorbash]

I think she needs to stop being such a waste of space.

[Eldariel]

Well, since her response to nearly anything happening is "I cast Fireball" (even agains Red Dragons and at lvl 15, mind you), it's usually for the best...

This generates an interesting scenario, by the way.

DM: 'The king greets you: "Hail, valiant warriors. What manner of business bring you to my not-so-humble halls?"'
Wizard: 'I cast Fireball.'
Others: 'What?!'
DM: 'Wait, are you going to try to torch the king in his own halls while returning the usurper's head to him?!'
Wizard: 'He asked a question. I answered. Is he burning yet?'
Others: :rolleyes: and stupendous faces
DM: 'FINE! You cast Fireball. His court mage counters it and inquires: "What in the blazes are you doing?!" while very threateningly holding his hands pointed towards you.'
Wizard: 'I cast Fireball.'
Everyone: '...'
DM: 'Your spell resolves scorching various furniture and leaving you staring at a furious, unscathed court mage, king and the Kingsguard in said king's throne room. Your magical protections are suppressed by a field. Roll a dozen Will-saves.'
Everyone fails.
DM: 'You're unconscious, and later wake up finding yourself in the dungeon naked, whipped and with your magic suppressed.'
Wizard: 'See how fast I got us through the discussion; imagine how much time we saved!'

[Gorbash]

She's a Sorcerer. I'm the Wizard.

And, of course, she never speaks in character. After 2 years of playing I still don't know the name of her character.