Can you take a feat "late" in 3.5?

[Shecky]

Here's the deal: I rolled up a character for our new campaign and sent off an HTML copy to our DM for approval and discussion. Now, I use e-Tools for character creation and maintenance (don't know if any of you remember e-Tools, but I'm a big fan), and when you create a character, one of the first three things you do before you can start building the character is selecting what classes you're taking at what level. I put two levels of rogue in, given that we're starting off at 2nd level (which is not the point of discussion, simply contributing information).

Because of starting out with 2 levels before assigning any attributes, skills, feats, etc., I "began" with a BAB of +1, which made my rogue eligible to take Weapon Finesse. I honestly didn't think about it, but my DM saw it and questioned me on it. He's of the opinion that the feat you get at 1st level should be considered part of the character's background or training, and I honestly don't disagree with him. But it made me wonder about something. I know that with XP, if you earn enough to level up, you can elect NOT to level up until later. Is there an equivalent provision somewhere in the rules regarding feats, where you don't have to take it at the time you earn it and won't be penalized or simply LOSE it if you don't take it then? I can't find one, but I have a sneaking suspicion it's there.

This is primarily just for curiosity's sake, but if there is a compelling rule out there, I'd like to know about it.

[Keld Denar]

No, you have to take feats when you get them. You can't bank them for later. Its in the rules in the PHB that lists the steps to level up a character. Its not in the SRD though.

[Sinfire Titan]

No, you have to take feats when you get them. You can't bank them for later. Its in the rules in the PHB that lists the steps to level up a character. Its not in the SRD though.

You can use the DCFS if you don't mind cheese. But this is the normal rule.


Taint also gets you a bonus feat at any level you need it, but that has other problems attached.

[arguskos]

You can use the DCFS if you don't mind cheese. But this is the normal rule.

Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle, I assume? I rarely hear it referred to as such, normally just the Chaos Shuffle.

[Shecky]

No, you have to take feats when you get them. You can't bank them for later. Its in the rules in the PHB that lists the steps to level up a character. Its not in the SRD though.

I just looked at that, and unless I just plain missed it, there's no mention of having to take a feat when you get it. It simply says you "gain a feat".

[HunterOfJello]

you can't delay level up benefits

it's unfortunate, but understandable

[SilverClawShift]

I dunno about RAW, but if I were DMing I wouldn't allow a character to delay taking a feat unless they couldn't decide what they wanted, and they could only take a feat that they qualified for when they gained a level.

Otherwise, you could piggyback on your party until you hit epic level and then take a half a dozen epic feats instead of anything else. It's not a HUGE abuse, there's certainly things you could do that would make you more effective, but powerful or not it's still obviously not what's intended.

[Yucca]

I also recall seeing a rule about having to spend feats and skillpoints right away, but I can't find a citation right know. I'd appreciate it if someone could provide one.

However, convincing a DM to houserule that rogues can take weapon finesse at level 1 shouldn't be too hard. It fits so well with the flavor of the class that I'm surprised it wasn't granted by a class feature or eventually turned into an ACF.

[Irreverent Fool]

When you get something, you get it when you get it. You can infer that the rules allow something specifically because they don't say that they don't.

The rules imply through their basic components and retraining options that the situation that the OP is specifically trying for is disallowed. That is, even in the event that you take a feat later, the feat taken must be one for which the character met all the prerequisites at the time they gained the feat slot. So even if you 'bank' a feat, there's no advantage in it.

I see no problem with allowing characters without +1 BAB to gain weapon finesse though. My group has always played without that restriction. Initially we just assumed it was a feat available to first-level rogues. Once we found out about the requirement, the unanimous response was, "Meh." Your DM seems to disagree though.

There are a number of ways to pick up Weapon Finesse. You might consider taking Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior) as your first class in order to gain it as a bonus feat and then advancing as a Rogue. At some point down the line, you can take the second level of Swashbuckler which opens up the Daring Outlaw feat (Complete Scoundrel), letting you stack Rogue and Swashbuckler levels for SA and Grace. What I would probably do though is take Rogue first and grab Craven (Champions of Ruin) as your first-level feat, then Swashbuckler 1 for Weapon Finesse. (Fighter 1 works too.)

In your current situation, you could also wait until third level for a Swashbuckler dip and grab your regular third-level feat as well.

While Weapon Finesse in particular isn't really an offender, there are some feats and combinations thereof which will be quite overpowering if what you suggest is allowed. Consider a number of other feats that require a minimum caster level. A caster of X level would normally only be able to have one such feat, whereas a character under the system you suggest could have ALL of them.

Edit:

I also recall seeing a rule about having to spend feats and skillpoints right away, but I can't find a citation right know. I'd appreciate it if someone could provide one.

As do I. I'm looking for it at the moment.

Edit: The most I've seen so far is a post on another forum where a similar question was asked and the Sage was invoked. Apparently he said no, but the books are silent on the issue. Again though, just because it doesn't say you can't doesn't mean you can. There are no rules for banking feats. There are rules for gaining feats. You can't gain a feat if you don't pick a feat because an unfilled feat slot is not a feat. Similarly, you can't bank negative levels when you gain them.

obnoxious
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[Godskook]

You can use the DCFS if you don't mind cheese. But this is the normal rule.

Wait, what's the Department of Children and Family Services have to do with D&D?

[Eldonauran]

All characters start at level one, no matter what level you actually start playing them at. (Let's keep LA and racial HD away from this, please)

When you gain enough exp to level up; you pick a class (or prestige class), add your HP, BAB, Saves, skills, special abilities and then feats in that order. You can not skip the steps or choose to 'choose one later' (unless you houserule otherwise).

[Shecky]

When you get something, you get it when you get it. You can infer that the rules allow something specifically because they don't say that they don't.

The rules imply through their basic components and retraining options that the situation that the OP is specifically trying for is disallowed. That is, even in the event that you take a feat later, the feat taken must be one for which the character met all the prerequisites at the time they gained the feat slot. So even if you 'bank' a feat, there's no advantage in it.

I see no problem with allowing characters without +1 BAB to gain weapon finesse though. My group has always played without that restriction. Initially we just assumed it was a feat available to first-level rogues. Once we found out about the requirement, the unanimous response was, "Meh." Your DM seems to disagree though.

See, I do have a problem with allowing feats for which the explicit requirements are explicitly unmet, if we're not allowing a not-specifically-excluded option because it's not in the rules or it's inferred by some. I like to see some evidence in either case; in the situation of the 1st-level feat, I can very easily buy my DM's take that it's part and parcel of the "recruit training" that the character has had before becoming 1st level - part of the character's background/backstory, if you will. However, if that's the case, I'd also argue that at later levels, while the character is growing, he should be able to bank feats/skills/etc. I mean, we often reserve action/funds/resources in real life because we have overarching plans that require that multiple steps be taken into account, do we not?

Anyway, this is a side issue; I'm still looking for specific sources that address the question of "banking" feats directly, not just impressions like mine that "I'm pretty sure that I saw it somewhere" or "it must say that". Anyone?

[Eldonauran]

Anyway, this is a side issue; I'm still looking for specific sources that address the question of "banking" feats directly, not just impressions like mine that "I'm pretty sure that I saw it somewhere" or "it must say that". Anyone?

You won't find anything in the rules regarding 'banking' feats or saving for later. Anything like that will be houserule only. There is a simple formula on how to level up and that is how the mechanics work. Deviating from it is houseruling.

There are rules for retraining. That is the closest you are going to get.

[Shecky]

Again though, just because it doesn't say you can't doesn't mean you can. There are no rules for banking feats. There are rules for gaining feats. You can't gain a feat if you don't pick a feat because an unfilled feat slot is not a feat. Similarly, you can't bank negative levels when you gain them.

obnoxious
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Then what of the banked XP you can choose not to apply towards an earned level, then? Unused XP are not XP? I'm not saying this in mirror form in order to be snarky; I'm using that exact formula because XP are even more fundamental to characters than feats, yet we're able to hold off on applying them. And you can't bank negative levels because the books are all very consistent on punishment/loss happening involuntarily (with VERY specific examples on choices of exactly which kind of punishment/loss you wish to take), whereas training and learning are primarily voluntary by definition.

[Shecky]

You won't find anything in the rules regarding 'banking' feats or saving for later. Anything like that will be houserule only. There is a simple formula on how to level up and that is how the mechanics work. Deviating from it is houseruling.

There are rules for retraining. That is the closest you are going to get.

See above regarding use or non-use of XP; by that model, the mechanics are that you gain the option to use those leveling-up-dependent rewards, and deviating from that would qualify as house-ruling. And retraining implies you've already taken up that time training for something else, which would not be the case in my character's situation.

Please note that I don't disagree with you opinion-wise. It's just that I'm frustrated that I can't find anything anywhere in any of the books that says when I must take those options, and I'm asking if anyone has any specific material that at least hints strongly at this. That's all. No need to try to convince me that this is the way the rules tend.

[Eldonauran]

I usnderstand where you are coming from. But what you are doing is something called 'the rules don't say I can't, so I can'. This in incorrect.

When you gain enough exp to level up, you can do one of two things:

a) Level up
b) Not level up

If you choose to level up, you follow the formula. If you choose not to, you don't. You can not deviate from the formula unless rule 0 is invoked (houseruling).

It's just that I'm frustrated that I can't find anything anywhere in any of the books that says when I must take those options

Player's Handbook, section on how to level up. You either follow the steps or you don't. Once you start, you don't stop until you are leveled up. Can't have a level 2 5/6 character walking around cause he/she didn't choose his feat.

[Douglas]

Then what of the banked XP you can choose not to apply towards an earned level, then?

Actually, you can't do that either. You can spend your XP to create magic items instead of going up a level as per Item Creation Feats: XP Cost on page 88 of the PHB, but you must do so immediately. The normal rule, as stated on page 58 of the PHB, is "When your character’s XP total reaches at least the minimum XP needed for a new character level (see Table 3–2), he or she 'goes up a level.'" As worded, it is automatic with no choice involved with regard to when it happens. You get enough XP, you go up a level. Period.

The levelup process is worded in a similar fashion. Just go down the list on page 58, and record your benefits. Every benefit, without exception, is worded in terms of immediate changes.

At the top of the levelup process list on page 58, it says "When your character attains a new level, make these changes." Following that rule, you must make each change listed at the time you gain the level.

Step 7 of that process says

7. Feats: Upon attaining 3rd level and at every third level thereafter (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level), the character gains one feat of your choice (see Table 5–1: Feats, page 90). The character must meet any prerequisites for that feat in order to select it. As with ability score increases, it is the overall character level, not the class level, that determines when a character gets a new feat.

It says specifically "gain one feat of your choice", not "increase the maximum number of feats you can have." You must follow this step at the time you level up, and you must gain your feat immediately. Gaining a "feat slot" or the option to gain a feat later is unequivocally not the same as what this step gives you. You gain a feat.

[Shecky]

Still not seeing a "must" anywhere in any of those (good point on the immediate expenditure of XP on item creation if one chooses not to level up yet, however!). Let me say it again so it's totally clear: I am not saying "the rules don't say I can't, so I can". I am saying that the progression seems reasonable as is, not held off. My arguments in this thread are devil's-advocate arguments, arguing against my own opinion because of a dearth of facts disproving it and a number of things inconsistent with it. I already agree that I do believe those benefits should be taken "on time", as it were - what I am looking for is some concrete foundation upon which to place that belief.

Furthermore, the leveling-up aspect itself is already explicitly allowed (even suggested) to be modified greatly in the sourcebooks. "How PCs Improve" (DMG p. 197) suggests that characters not be able to apply the leveling-up benefits until they've trained, a very rational, real-world take on the rules. By this token, could it not be argued convincingly that waiting to take a feat would correspond to someone knowing what he wants to train to do waiting until he's physically/mentally capable of learning how to do it?

Feh. Now I've made myself conflicted - I believe it should happen when it says it happens, but any rational, at least quasi-real-world analysis points in the other direction, at least when it comes to delaying benefits.

[The Glyphstone]

From a simple balance perspective, look at how many feats have prerequisites of BAB, stats, skill ranks, whatever. If you could 'bank' feat slots, you could spend all your feats on the high-level feats that you're only expected to have one or two of.

[Douglas]

I see and understand what you're looking for here, I'm just trying to provide the foundation you want.

Still not seeing a "must" anywhere in any of those

Why would one be necessary? Each of these steps states, not what must or should happen, but what does happen.

Furthermore, the leveling-up aspect itself is already explicitly allowed (even suggested) to be modified greatly in the sourcebooks. "How PCs Improve" (DMG p. 197) suggests that characters not be able to apply the leveling-up benefits until they've trained, a very rational, real-world take on the rules.

That section contains some options for possible house rules, not any actual modification of RAW.

By this token, could it not be argued convincingly that waiting to take a feat would correspond to someone knowing what he wants to train to do waiting until he's physically/mentally capable of learning how to do it?

But what would he be learning and training in until then? If he's not capable of training for X at the moment and, rather than training for Y, just doesn't train at all in the mean time, he should end up with nothing, not a backlog of training that can all be applied to X once he becomes sufficiently capable.

[Lin Bayaseda]

I use this fix: you can take a feat regardless of prerequisites. However, you only gain the benefits of the feat if/when you meen the prerequisite.

So, go ahead and take Weapon Finess as a level 1 Rogue. The benefits will be delayed until your BAB hits +1.

[Zeful]

Still not seeing a "must" anywhere in any of those (good point on the immediate expenditure of XP on item creation if one chooses not to level up yet, however!).

Do the rules use "you may" anywhere in the text? If they don't then you may not. It's the way the English language works. With out an instance of a word that puts choice in you hands (e.g. "You may choose to forgo your saving throw") then you don't get one. It doesn't need to put "must" anywhere, it just has to omit "may".

[Mongoose87]

I use this fix: you can take a feat regardless of prerequisites. However, you only gain the benefits of the feat if/when you meen the prerequisite.

So, go ahead and take Weapon Finess as a level 1 Rogue. The benefits will be delayed until your BAB hits +1.

Could be pretty OP at high levels.

[Shecky]

Could be pretty OP at high levels.

Mm, yeah, I can see that. Would be less overpowered simply to defer feat-taking itself.

[Kylarra]

Could be pretty OP at high levels.

Yeah, depending on your group's power levels, the ability to effectively save any feat as for when you qualify is pretty strong. Many many people would take null feats that don't do anything until you qualify for them this way.

[Shecky]

Do the rules use "you may" anywhere in the text? If they don't then you may not. It's the way the English language works. With out an instance of a word that puts choice in you hands (e.g. "You may choose to forgo your saving throw") then you don't get one. It doesn't need to put "must" anywhere, it just has to omit "may".

Sorry, no, linguist here, and that's not the way English works; it's an astoundingly illogical language. Not that any other language works with logical thought any better, mind you.

[Irreverent Fool]

I use this fix: you can take a feat regardless of prerequisites. However, you only gain the benefits of the feat if/when you meen the prerequisite.

So, go ahead and take Weapon Finess as a level 1 Rogue. The benefits will be delayed until your BAB hits +1.

Then I'll go ahead and take nine feats that require CL 10 and soon as I hit 10 they all come on-line? I guess if everyone has this option, it's fine, but it tends to encourage characters not having any feats.

Feat banking is not RAW. If you wish to argue it is, provide evidence. An argument cannot be based on a lack of evidence to the contrary without anything to support it.

obnoxious
sig

[Zeful]

Sorry, no, linguist here, and that's not the way English works; it's an astoundingly illogical language. Not that any other language works with logical thought any better, mind you.

And D&D is a game with an extensive list of what you can do. If the game doesn't cover it then either the DM houserules something or you can't.

So again do the rules say you can (normally signified by "may")? If yes, then yes. If else, then no.

[Lin Bayaseda]

Then I'll go ahead and take nine feats that require CL 10 and soon as I hit 10 they all come on-line? I guess if everyone has this option, it's fine, but it tends to encourage characters not having any feats.

Feat banking is not RAW. If you wish to argue it is, provide evidence. An argument cannot be based on a lack of evidence to the contrary without anything to support it.

obnoxious
sig

I'm not sure if the 2nd paragraph is directed at me, but I never intended to argue it was RAW. I said it's a local fix I use.
As for the first paragraph, your mileage may vary, of course, but my own practical experience showed my players would never do that. At the most, they will take a feat for which they are 1-2 levels short once in a while.

[Shalist]

3.5 FAQ link

Can a crusader (ToB 8) delay learning a new stance to a later level? If not, how can he ever learn an 8th- or 9th-level stance, since his last stance is gained at only 14th level?

As a general rule, you can’t ever delay gaining any feature that comes from reaching a new level, whether that’s a feat, skill points, class feature, or anything else...

RETRAINING
The most basic level of character revision is retraining--that
is, adjusting a decision you made earlier in your character's
career by selecting a different legal option...

The Process

You can exchange one of the feats you previously selected
for another feat. If the new feat has prerequisites, not only
must your character meet them in his current state, but you
must also be able to show that he met them at the time you
chose the previous feat.
Example: A 4th-level fighter/1st-level rogue couldn't trade
the Mobility feat...for Weapon Specialization, even though he currently
meets the prerequisites (fighter level 4th), because he could
not have done so as a 3rd-level character.