Half-Dragons: Awesome or Not?

[Alvrick]

I'm a big fan of half-dragons. beyond the general fact that they are draconic creatures, they have excellent stats bonuses for essentially no penalties unless you're relying on your type for something.

However, many have expressed the opinion that half-dragons aren't all that great, particularly due to their +3 LA.

What are the playground's thoughts on this template, both for opposition against the party and a character within it?

[arguskos]

Not worth LA +3. This has been well and conclusively shown a few different times. Compare a (Full BAB Class Combo Here) Half-Dragon to a (Full BAB Class Combo Here) with 3 more levels. The latter will likely perform better in all areas than that Half-Dragon.

[Mando Knight]

I believe the general consensus is as follows:

Problem #1: LA.
Problem #2: Not everyone likes to think about half-dragons.
Problem #3: LA.

[Gralamin]

The solution to Half-Dragon is Dragonborn.

[IonDragon]

Awesome, and cool, but totally not worth it. Sometimes I do it anyway, but mostly when it's a gestalt character with LA only on one side.

[Jon_Dahl]

Generally half-dragons die pretty fast unless they are carefully protected...

So you are born as half-dragon human or elf or some other core race. When you reach your first level, you are effectively 4th-level character. So you really have to be extremely patient and careful to gain 10.000 XP to reach 2nd-level, while have maybe 5 hp if you are a wizard... Even with 15 hp it's going to hard. You can deal out lot of damage with your breath weapon, but you lose the initiative you can easily die against almost any opponent.

[Alvrick]

Not worth LA +3. This has been well and conclusively shown a few different times. Compare a (Full BAB Class Combo Here) Half-Dragon to a (Full BAB Class Combo Here) with 3 more levels. The latter will likely perform better in all areas than that Half-Dragon.

I have to ask, how? by capitalizng on your strengths (strength and consitution) you get even more accomplished than most characters your level. you have +2 con and +8 strength, not to mention the mental bonuses. +8 strength gives you a +4 mod to your attacks, which more than makes up for the lost BAB, even if you can't pour it into Power attack. the enhanced intelligence gives you extra skill points, and the constitution... well, that one is obvious. plus, you are never unarmed as the only way your enemies could do that is but cutting off your hands and pulling out your teeth, and the natural armor is awesome too, giving you a +4, which is the equivalent of a chain shirt, which most lighter characters like rangers and rogues will wear full stop. and that's on top of your other armor, giving you some wicked AC if you combine it with magical full-plate and an enhanced tower shield

on top of that, half-dragons have an area effect straight from the get-go, and once they reach 6 HD, they can use it as many times as they like if they take the Dragon Breath feat, and metabreath feats can enhance it even further for a relatively small sacrifice - waiting a little bit longer to use it again

on top of this, most DMs see nothing wrong with dropping your breath weapon in order to lower your LA to +2. if you can't swing this, pump the breath weapon up, but you lose nothing by focusing more on your fighting feats than breath related ones, and you get rid of a point of LA in the process

Generally half-dragons die pretty fast unless they are carefully protected...

So you are born as half-dragon human or elf or some other core race. When you reach your first level, you are effectively 4th-level character. So you really have to be extremely patient and careful to gain 10.000 XP to reach 2nd-level, while have maybe 5 hp if you are a wizard... Even with 15 hp it's going to hard. You can deal out lot of damage with your breath weapon, but you lose the initiative you can easily die against almost any opponent.

that's why you focus on a high AC and depend on your party members until you can survive fights easier. built well, you can have even more HP than your allies at even relatively low levels

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Not. I mean, got nothing against them, but I've never found dragons that interesting truth be told.

[The Cat Goddess]

Here's a thought...

Powerful Build says: "The physical stature of a goliath lets him function in many ways as if he were one size category larger."

Does that mean a Goliath Half-Dragon would qualify for Wings?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

+1 for Dragonborn of Bahamut. All the taste of half dragon, with none of the cLAories. Typo? You decide.

[Gralamin]

I have to ask, how? by capitalizng on your strengths (strength and consitution) you get even more accomplished than most characters your level. you have +2 con and +8 strength, not to mention the mental bonuses. +8 strength gives you a +4 mod to your attacks, which more than makes up for the lost BAB, even if you can't pour it into Power attack.

Take a two-handed weapon, and a base strength of 18. Normal Fighter swings at + 4 (Strength) + 6 (BAB) + 1 (Mwk) = +11. You swing at +8 (Strength) + 3 (BAB) + 1 (Mwk) = +12. When they hit, they can hit for between +6 to +18 (Depending on Power attack). When you hit, you can hit for between +12 and +18.
At the particular point of level 6, you are doing fairly well, but this doesn't hold up.

the enhanced intelligence gives you extra skill points, and the constitution... well, that one is obvious.

Not true. Say a base Con of 14. Normal fighter has floor(12+7.5*5) = 49 HP. You have: floor(13+8.5*3) = 38 HP. You are actually rather far behind in HP.

plus, you are never unarmed as the only way your enemies could do that is but cutting off your hands and pulling out your teeth, and the natural armor is awesome too, giving you a +4, which is the equivalent of a chain shirt, which most lighter characters like rangers and rogues will wear full stop. and that's on top of your other armor, giving you some wicked AC if you combine it with magical full-plate and an enhanced tower shield

The Natural AC does help, The natural weapons can be nice, depending on build.

on top of that, half-dragons have an area effect straight from the get-go, and once they reach 6 HD, they can use it as many times as they like if they take the Dragon Breath feat, and metabreath feats can enhance it even further for a relatively small sacrifice - waiting a little bit longer to use it again

You cannot take that until ECL 9 though, and by the time you really get it going, it won't be that useful. Plus, I'm not sure which feat you are talking about, but if it grants a breath weapon IT DOES NOT USE THE HALF-DRAGON BREATH WEAPON.

on top of this, most DMs see nothing wrong with dropping your breath weapon in order to lower your LA to +2. if you can't swing this, pump the breath weapon up, but you lose nothing by focusing more on your fighting feats than breath related ones, and you get rid of a point of LA in the process

Not RAW, doesn't matter. And you do still lose a lot.

In addition to everything I said, the other fighter will likely already be in a PRC, will likely have pounce from Lion Totem Barbarian, etc. You are VERY far behind.

[Temotei]

Note that +2 Con is nothing compared to three hit dice--especially in martial classes (d8 - d12, usually d10 (5.5 average)).

Also note that Intelligence boosting is nothing compared to the skill points you get from getting class levels.

Those are just the little notes. I'll let the others crush the above arguments.

Ho! Ninja'd.

[Thrawn183]

The BAB vs. strength argument ignores the most important part: feats. Not only do you have one less feat from having 3 less HD, the feats you have access to just aren't as good.

Remember, when your half-dragon is hitting character level 9, the humanoid melee is hitting 12 and picking up Robilar's Gambit. When your half-dragon is hitting character level 15, the fighter is getting weapon supremacy.

Don't get me wrong, I love half-dragons. Especially half-dragon centaurs, but strictly superior to other choices they are not.

[Alvrick]

You cannot take that until ECL 9 though, and by the time you really get it going, it won't be that useful. Plus, I'm not sure which feat you are talking about, but if it grants a breath weapon IT DOES NOT USE THE HALF-DRAGON BREATH WEAPON.

I concede the other points, as they are generally mathematical, but I'm sorry, I don't think I understand what you mean. having the dragonblood subtype and a breath weapon with limited uses per day is a requirement of the feat. it essentially just gives you more uses, it doesn't change the breath weapon

[Pluto]

the enhanced intelligence gives you extra skill points, and the constitution... well, that one is obvious.

That's actually the one that really screws half-dragons at low levels.

Assuming a melee type (because that's the archetype that puts their abilities to some use):

At low levels:
Half-Dragons have to ride maybe 16 HP to survive until ECL 5.
They have to ride maybe 28 HP until ECL 6.
One hit from a level-appropriate opponent will flat-out kill them.

Their saves are rubbish.
Their skills are inexistant.
Their breath weapons are negligible.

At high levels:
Polymorph is a part of the game.
Suddenly racial selection doesn't matter.
But the LA still does.




As you attest, they aren't unplayable. They're just weaker than the base melee classes.

Dragonborn (RotD), Dragonfire Adept (DM) or Totemist levels (MoI, especially with DM soulmelds) can give you the same sort of character, but without the LA problems.

[Gralamin]

I concede the other points, as they are generally mathematical, but I'm sorry, I don't think I understand what you mean. having the dragonblood subtype and a breath weapon with limited uses per day is a requirement of the feat. it essentially just gives you more uses, it doesn't change the breath weapon

As I noted: I don't know which feat you are talking about, so I was making a general assumption. If you give a source, I will give you a better, more Succinct argument.

[Alvrick]

Regarding how everybody keeps telling me that half-dragons are crap for optimization, I've started considering other options

what about a half-ogre, then? are they as bad as the half-dragon?

As I noted: I don't know which feat you are talking about, so I was making a general assumption. If you give a source, I will give you a better, more Succinct argument.

source is Races of the Dragon

[arguskos]

I concede the other points, as they are generally mathematical, but I'm sorry, I don't think I understand what you mean. having the dragonblood subtype and a breath weapon with limited uses per day is a requirement of the feat. it essentially just gives you more uses, it doesn't change the breath weapon

Uh... no? The actual requirements of Draconic Breath are the Draconic Heritage feat and sorcerer level 1st, and it doesn't give you more uses, it lets you sacrifice arcane spell slots to create a supernatural breath weapon based on the level of the slot sacrificed.

[Alvrick]

Uh... no? The actual requirements of Draconic Breath are the Draconic Heritage feat and sorcerer level 1st, and it doesn't give you more uses, it lets you sacrifice arcane spell slots to create a supernatural breath weapon based on the level of the slot sacrificed.

DRAGON BREATH not DRACONIC BREATH. it's under general feats

[arguskos]

DRAGON BREATH not DRACONIC BREATH. it's under general feats

...ah. Clearer. Also, dude, was a misread, no need to shout.

[Gralamin]

Regarding how everybody keeps telling me that half-dragons are crap for optimization, I've started considering other options

what about a half-ogre, then? are they as bad as the half-dragon?



source is Races of the Dragon

Half Ogre, if its the thing I'm thinking of, is good because you get the Size increases IN ADDITION to everything else noted.

---
Dragon Breath is, indeed a very good feat. However, you get it at around level 9, and your Breath weapon is always going to be dealing 6d8 damage without more feats.
On the bright side, your breath weapon is better then a Dragonborns until ECL 18.
On the bad side, A Dragonborn and a Dragonfire adept (Or a Dragonborn Dragonfire Adept) will of been able to do this since level 1, Will of accumulated more Meta Breath feats, and in the case of a Dragonfire Adept, will soon have the ability to massively outclass you with its powerful, versatile breath.
Not only that, to make it really worth doing you have to put a lot of your feats into your breath weapon - Which usually will cost you whatever other advantages you may of had.

[Divide by Zero]

...ah. Clearer. Also, dude, was a misread, no need to shout.

Everyone knows caps lock isn't for shouting anymore. It's CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL.

[Draz74]

As I noted: I don't know which feat you are talking about, so I was making a general assumption. If you give a source, I will give you a better, more Succinct argument.

He's talking about the feat "Dragon Breath" from Races of the Dragon, which is specifically for Half-Dragons. It is simultaneously the biggest boost and biggest nerf the Half-Dragon template has ever gotten:

Biggest boost, because it does indeed make their breath weapon 100x more useful.

Biggest nerf, because their breath weapon still sucks (terrible damage), and now you'll be tempted to actually try to use it productively.

Dragon Breath and Entangling Exhalation, ok, now the breath weapon is starting to be useful ... but you'd be much better off taking 3 levels of Dragonfire Adept and spending one feat, instead of having +3 LA and spending two feats.

[The Cat Goddess]

what about a half-ogre, then? are they as bad as the half-dragon?

With a Reach Weapon (Spiked Chain, or Rope Dart from Dragon Magazine... reach weapon for Monks!), Combat Reflexes, Large and In Charge (Draconomicon), Standstill (Expanded Psionics), Improved Trip... perhaps levels in Crusader with a two level dip in Fighter for some of the feats.

A Half-Ogre makes an excellent battle-field control maniac.

[Sinfire Titan]

I have to ask, how? by capitalizng on your strengths (strength and consitution) you get even more accomplished than most characters your level. you have +2 con and +8 strength, not to mention the mental bonuses. +8 strength gives you a +4 mod to your attacks, which more than makes up for the lost BAB, even if you can't pour it into Power attack. the enhanced intelligence gives you extra skill points, and the constitution... well, that one is obvious.

+2 Con= +1 HP/Level. Those three levels you are giving up? All three of those give you a minimum of 1d4+Con/level. You're losing out.

That +8 Str? Doesn't qualify you for PrCs with a BAB requirement (which most melee characters need) or feats with the same requirements.

That Int bonus? An LA 0 race gives it. An LA 1 race gives it (and that race sucks).

plus, you are never unarmed as the only way your enemies could do that is but cutting off your hands and pulling out your teeth, and the natural armor is awesome too, giving you a +4, which is the equivalent of a chain shirt, which most lighter characters like rangers and rogues will wear full stop. and that's on top of your other armor, giving you some wicked AC if you combine it with magical full-plate and an enhanced tower shield

Kobolds get a AC bonus comparable to Half-Dragons. +3 for an LA 0 Race VS +4 for an LA 3 race.

And the Natural Weapons? Anyone can get those with a feat. Or not, as it's really very rare to be weapon-less unless your DM is forcing it on you or you made a major mistake.


And for those 3 levels I lost, I could take two levels in Totemist to get everything Half-Dragon offers and then some.

on top of that, half-dragons have an area effect straight from the get-go, and once they reach 6 HD, they can use it as many times as they like if they take the Dragon Breath feat, and metabreath feats can enhance it even further for a relatively small sacrifice - waiting a little bit longer to use it again

Cool, you have an AoE 1/day that can't be used until you are at least 4th level, and can't be used more than 1/day until you are at least 9th level.



Dragonfire Adepts do the same thing, faster. Totemists have Breath Weapons that kill things starting at level 2, and spellcasters fraggin sneeze AoE effects better than your breath weapon.

on top of this, most DMs see nothing wrong with dropping your breath weapon in order to lower your LA to +2. if you can't swing this, pump the breath weapon up, but you lose nothing by focusing more on your fighting feats than breath related ones, and you get rid of a point of LA in the process

Still not worth it. And House Ruling something to make it playable doesn't mean it is worth taking as written.

that's why you focus on a high AC and depend on your party members until you can survive fights easier. built well, you can have even more HP than your allies at even relatively low levels

1: Focusing on your AC is worthless. Enemy attack bonuses scale faster, and your Touch AC will suck.
2: Focusing on your AC is a GP sink. You'll end up losing out on damage if you are a frontliner.
3: I just proved that the HP you gain from Half-Dragon isn't worth 3 levels. It's actually worse than taking those three levels in Commoner.


Level Adjustments above 1 need to be very powerful to make up for what you lose. Class features are considerably better than stat bonuses.

what about a half-ogre, then? are they as bad as the half-dragon?

Savage Species version: Yes. By miles. But not for a caster.
Races of Destiny version: Kinda. Not for a Caster though.

[Doc Roc]

I throw my weight behind Sinfire.

I think you should consider Dragonborn or the draconic template, which is great if you're allowed to buy it off.

If you really want to be a dragon-spawn, I recommend the white dragonspawn template... ;)

[Alvrick]

alrighty then. I guess I'll be playing a half-ogre for my next melee build. combat control is a wonderful thing.

(For note, I'll be playing with the races of destiny one. My group widely views Savage Species as cheese until proven otherwise)

[Doc Roc]

Well, let me lay a proposition in front of you:

War-forged can be dragonborn.

Yes, you can build mecha-godzilla.

Is this optimal? No, not really.
Is it hilariously awesome? God yes.
Can it have the excellent Dark template? Yes.

[Alvrick]

Well, let me lay a proposition in front of you:

War-forged can be dragonborn.

Yes, you can build mecha-godzilla.

Is this optimal? Probably not.
Is it hilariously awesome? God yes.

sorry, but I believe a dragonborn has to start off as a humanoid. awesome Idea though.

... I wonder if warforged count as living corporeal creatures? then you you could put half-dragon/fiend/celestial on it and have it be perfectly legit

[Doc Roc]

Dragonborn is legit. It was clarified a while ago by WotC.

Dragonborn, for reference, are found in Races of the Dragon. Shocking, I know.