3.5 Gestalt, Way of the Rogue

[Icewraith]

So this campaign that has been in the "we'd like to do it but no-one really has time" stage has suddenly become much more viable. I haven't actually gotten to game for a couple years and am looking for playing and build advice. The campaign also suddenly went from single-class to gestalt. Most books are allowed (dragon compendium maybe, magazine probably not, 3rd party 99% no but I can ask, online Wizards stuff maybe), there may be some house rules to get extra feats but I'm not counting on it, we've never used flaws, and the point buy will probably be 29. Starting level fourish, depending on how things go this could go for a long time.

I know one of our players is thinking of some weird warblade/dwarven defender combo (I've always objected to the DD on the basis that you can't force the opponents to walk up to you and beat on you, and you have issues stopping opponents from running around you and beating on the party in open terrain), we may have someone coming in who likes clerics, and hopefully a first time player who will probably play a blasty wizard.

So the only obvious remaining role (taking the gestalt skill economy into consideration) is that of the sneaky bastard, which probably means rogue (possibly scout but atm I'm thinking rogue). The problem is, I'd also like to dish out bucketfulls of damage while doing so.

The problem I'm having is how exactly to do it. I could be arcane-sneaky and gestalt with something like warlock, but the warlock doesn't get iterative attacks at ranged and doesn't dual wield in melee, halving the damage output of sneak attack. On the other hand, it would be great fun to conjure black tentacle fields and solid fog without worrying about running out of spell slots, not to mention the continuous dispelling being a pain in the butt for opposing casters. Also if something's grappling in my black tentacle field I can sneak attack with impunity.

Alternatively I could make a melee-focused rogue, in which case the the issue becomes ToB vs. Fighter.

Fighter covers all of the rogue's melee weaknesses (although still stuck in light armor): d10 hd, full BAB, and dual-wielding for damage or spiked chain usage for causing my dm to pull his hair out with combat expertise based feat chains, combat reflexes and reach.

Warblade gives extra mobility and damage but loses out on the feat department, and plays completely different. A fighter can use an exotic weapon and wreak havoc on his opponents with the weapon's advantages, while a warblade is better suited just using all his maneuvers with a longsword and maybe grabbing a shield. Of course, a few of the disciplines are awesome for either dual-wielding sneak attacks or standard-action attacks with multiple swings. Also both classes get uncanny dodge, which won't stack. It's more probably damage and has more mobility, but less sneaky bastard.

Crusader gives both evasion and mettle, but most of the maneuvers are high-damage single strikes, which doesn't pair well with multiple iterative sneak attacks as the best source of damage output. The style is sort of the same objection I have to warlock, even more so since now I'm in melee (warlock at least can full attack with EB and SA dice)

If I dip into shadowdancer for HIPS nonsense and an extra layer of sneaky bastard, which side do I take it on? Also, are there any prestige classes that enhance the level of sneaky bastardness? I'm looking for something that can skillmonkey (rogue slot), deal tons of damage and preferably mess up opponents with special abilities from a magical or mundane source, while avoiding wizard and cleric.

I'm looking for something that will annoy, frustrate, and maim opponents as necessary but not something that will get the DMG chucked at me. I'm looking for a sneaky bastard.

Edit: Dragon compendium may fly, other dragon mag stuff we don't have and likely can't find, 3rd party is right out and web enhance stuff may be difficult to justify.

[Eternal Drifter]

I'm thinking you want to go with Fighter/Rouge, but I only have core...

Here's my thoughts on the plan:

Choose a Spiked Chain. Sure, low damage... but the reach is good. Strike opponents ten feet away from your hiding spot without even moving from it!

Max out your Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, and any other movement skills you find neccacary. You want to be able to move without notice, so you can get into the position you want.

As you level up, have your fighter feats focused on making your Chain more powerful. Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Finesse, Improved Critical... You might also be interested in Improved Disarm; any humanoid enemies would find their weapons missing, and not realize that they are in your hands, ready to strike with a Sneak Attack!

After you hit 12th Fighter (for Improved Weapon Specialization), you have more options. Dip into Shadowdancer, perhaps... You want Rouge all the way through 20th, though, for the skill points to remain a sneaky person.

That's my two coppers. Take it or leave it.

[bartman]

Rogue goes well with Swashbuckler, but I would keep that on one side of the Gestalt. I have played a swordsage specializing in Desert Wind, with a few shadow hand manoevers, and it was alot of fun. the damage you can do is tremendous. I think if it was my character, I would go rogue2/swashbuckler2//swordsage4 to start, and see where things in game take you. I dont know how many times I have had a character concept in mind only to change midgame and go a completely different route. As for swordsage, I would focus on the shadow hand end, maybe with desert wind thrown in for flavour (pyro, what can I say). you definitely want to get the shadow hand manoevers that let you teleport around the field as soon as you can.

Im interested in your final build, can you post it when you have things sorted out?

[Glimbur]

Swordsage//Fighter? That'll get you full BAB, skills, and sneakiness. You technically don't get Trapfinding, but you could dip rogue for it. Consider Swordsage//Barbarian, or Swordsage//Duskblade if you've got a lot of stats to burn.

[Jack_Simth]

Ninja//Druid.

Ninja is from Complete Adventurer, and is basically a Rogue - it's got a reduced version of Sneak Attack, and only 6 skill points per level, but gets some nifty wis-based abilities and Wis to AC.

Druid is... well, Core. But gets Wis-based spellcasting, a d8 hit die, and a minor meatshield (at 4th, either pick up an Ape as an animal companion meatshield and prepare Reduce Animal for when you go somewhere a Large critter just won't fit, or pick up one of the cats with Pounce). At 5th, you also get Wildshape - which lets you turn into something with multiple attacks. Oh yes, and your base strength/dex suddenly doesn't matter, as you get the Str/Dex of the new form.

At 5th, you use Druidic Wildshape to turn into a cat (or a dino ... but the goal here is Pounce + lots of attacks), use a Swift action to go invisible (Ninja ability), and then Pounce your target for several attacks with Sudden Strike extra damage. Tends to be suitably lethal, as long as the target isn't immune to crits.

[Toliudar]

Alternately, a rogue/wizard using rays and one of a hundred ways to get precision damage at range can be great fun. If your group's going to have a new player in the arcanist slot, and they're going to focus on blastiness, there's also tons of utility and control that a wizard/rogue would be well positioned to provide. At level four, with invisibility, alter self and scorching ray, you're a good scout and striker.

[The Rabbler]

if I may, I'd like to suggest the swordsage and invisible blade.

swordsage has all of the ToB goodness with a focus on doing lots of damage and has maneuvers specifically designed around assassination and other sneaky business.

the invisible blade, conversely, turns a rogue into a melee combatant. not very good for the first 4 levels, so it'd be a pain to go through, but once you hit level 5, feinting in combat becomes a free action. this allows all of your sneak attack damage to apply on every attack every round forever. unless, of course, the creature is immune. in that case you're kinda boned.

scout could be fun as well if you dipped cleric for travel domain. free movement is great when combined with skirmishes.

[Pluto]

Cleric and Artificer (ECS) are the best classes for players who don't know what they want.

Find your role boring? Pick a new one the next day. You'll be great at it, whatever it is.

[bartman]

Where would one find Invisible Blade?

if I ever get back into my campaign with my rogue, I may consider it, or maybe even retrain, if the flavour is right

[The Rabbler]

Where would one find Invisible Blade?

complete warrior; right before justicar.

also, now that I think about it, you could make your DM rage a bit by getting yourself a pair of kaorti-resin kukris. then get improved critical or put keen on them when you can for a grand total of 1d4, 15-20/x4. and if you do decide to go swordsage, you can pick up the stance that lets you move 5ft when you crit. couple that with scout and you'll be dealing skirmish damage every round without spending a move action.

kaorti-resin is from an online suppliment (at least that's where I read it) and it requires an exotic weapon proficiency all of it's own to use (for example: ewp kaorti-resin kukri).

[Icewraith]

Forgot about web stuff, updated initial post.

Ninja /Druid isn't something I'd considered since I don't like the normal ninja. But that idea has its merits as well. I'll definitely be posting the final version here, don't worry. So far ideas have been good, keep 'em coming!

As a side note I think we have Dungeonscape, I should have a flanking buddy so the ACF/feat that lets rogues gain half sneak attack vs. crit-immune targets will be in there if I end up going rogue.

[The Rabbler]

well, if you want more, I'd suggest waiting a few levels and getting my personal favorite armor ever. it costs the same as a +5 mithril fullplate: the +1 halfweight (UD) mithril fullplate of nimbleness. totals fullplate AC, 0 ARP, +4 max dex, and it's treated as light armor. a bit pricey, but I always found it fun to run into battle with a giant suit of armor and then slice people to ribbons.

as for a build, I'd suggest something along the lines of:

swordsage 1//scout (maybe riposte variant) 1
swordsage 2//cloistered cleric 1
swordsage 3//scout 2
swordsage 4//scout 3

etc with invisible blade stuck onto the scout side of things.

also, you might want to look into thri-kreen (non-psionic). buying off the LA and throwing the racial HD onto the scout side would let you become a true blender. not to mention the godlike jumping skills to help out with those jumpy-maneuvers.

[Telonius]

(I've always objected to the DD on the basis that you can't force the opponents to walk up to you and beat on you, and you have issues stopping opponents from running around you and beating on the party in open terrain),

DD by way of Knight isn't that bad, since it does give you a way to force opponents to walk up to you and beat on you. If he weren't already going Warblade I'd recommend it, but there are better things to gestalt against a warblade.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, Sneak Attack is the worst kind of extra damage. It is the least reliable at all levels, and the better it gets on your character sheet the worse it gets in play because more and more opponents will be outright immune to it. I would advise you to go with the Feat Rogue variant from UA page 58, trading your entire sneak attack progression for the Fighter's bonus feat progression. That would allow you to go Warblade and have the best of three classes, in which case I'd go with a two-handed weapon and Power Attack.

Wilderness Rogue, also from UA, gets superb special ability options and would add another layer of versatility to the character. Wild Cohort would be both useful and fitting, especially if you opt to keep sneak attack. Mixing this with a similarly flavored class like Ranger would result in too many redundant abilities, so I'd still combine it with Warblade.

If you can take Carmendine Monk from Champions of Valor it would be a good idea to dip two levels into Swordsage on the Rogue side. You could get your Int bonus to AC in light armor, you would gain access to some useful maneuvers and stances depending on when you take it, and you could even take Master of Nine.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Archivist//Factotum can pull off nearly anything, and makes a pretty decent damage dealing sneak/archer. Use Factotum for INT to everything, ++ skills, and extra actions. Use Archivist for Divine Power, a bunch of great Ranger spells from SpC, and your move-action stun to set up all sorts of shenanigans. I'd put out a stat line of something like Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 17, Wis 12, Cha 8, bumping Int at level 4. The Wis is a little low, but I think you'll be able to get away with it. Nabbing Knowledge Devotion is icing on the cake.

[JaronK]

Archivist//Factotum would be the super high powered option. Factotum//Warblade would be the more sane option. Both can be a lot of fun.

JaronK

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Archivist//Factotum would be the super high powered option. Factotum//Warblade would be the more sane option. Both can be a lot of fun.

JaronK

It's only super high powered once you dark secret stun + hunter's eye + spam standard actions to pincushion opponent at 11th (or do some other fun trick). At level 4 it's about as powerful as a Warblade//Factotum, if slightly more useful out of combat.

[Icewraith]

First of all, Sneak Attack is the worst kind of extra damage. It is the least reliable at all levels, and the better it gets on your character sheet the worse it gets in play because more and more opponents will be outright immune to it. I would advise you to go with the Feat Rogue variant from UA page 58, trading your entire sneak attack progression for the Fighter's bonus feat progression. That would allow you to go Warblade and have the best of three classes, in which case I'd go with a two-handed weapon and Power Attack.

Wilderness Rogue, also from UA, gets superb special ability options and would add another layer of versatility to the character. Wild Cohort would be both useful and fitting, especially if you opt to keep sneak attack. Mixing this with a similarly flavored class like Ranger would result in too many redundant abilities, so I'd still combine it with Warblade.

If you can take Carmendine Monk from Champions of Valor it would be a good idea to dip two levels into Swordsage on the Rogue side. You could get your Int bonus to AC in light armor, you would gain access to some useful maneuvers and stances depending on when you take it, and you could even take Master of Nine.

Precision damage generally isn't reliable, the scout's skirmish was ruled precision damage as well, which is what makes the ability from dungeonscape to still apply half sneak attack damage to a target you still flank even if it's precision immune so strong in my consideration. (and Dragonfire Strike with the right dm ruling, unless the target is also immune to fire) The point is to MAKE it reliable via alternative class features, feats, prestige classes (Invisible Blade), or at worst equipment (truedeath crystal, one for constructs as well if you have the $$)

Still, the Fighter feats lets me power attack and grab the combat expertise "screw with you" ability chain while maintaining other rogue abilities, plus full BAB and maneuvers from Warblade.

The warlock idea interested me but to go for damage I'd have to drop most (not all thought) of the skillmonkey concept and go ranger 2/scout 3/enlightened soul/something else//warlock (enlightened soul grants bonus dice to eldritch blast and specific invocations, which is legal under gestalt rules to pair with standard warlock) although that's 10 levels of d6 hd, 1 good save, 3/4 bab in a Gestalt it does add an extra 5d6 EB damage and some nifty extra invocations.

I've got a funky build somewhere that gets 17 or 18d6 damage of sneak attack with a spiked chain without ever getting multiple dice of sneak attack at one level in case the dm claims they don't stack since it's the same ability granted by 2 different classes. Unfortunately I don't know where it is and it used Ninja Spy from the 3.0 Rokugan book and Assassin, so it'll be difficult to pull off and would need to be updated (at the very least with the dungeonscape ability to make sure at least half of that dice pool is usable).

Arguably the best thing about the rogue with fighter feats/warblade build is the ability to not take rogue levels later for something else without worrying about losing sneak attack damage. Swordsage, shadowdancer, exotic weapon master, bard (Song of the White Raven for full inspire courage with a few levels to get extra music, use cure and grease wands without a umd check, plus I might be able to find a variant bard that drops the casting for something interesting) and Assassin (try to get the spells dropped for bonus feats a la paladin) would all be interesting combos.

Come to think of it, Bard//Fighter or Warblade or Dragon Shaman//Fighter or Warblade would be able to drop a passive bonus to attack rolls and damage (might need a prestige class for bard but it's doable) on top of either Power Attack ridiculousness or maneuvers from ToB. This will require more research!

Edit: Lots more research, I'm going to have to see if the dungeonscape book is at the other house or if it's one of the few we never bought, both to check out the Rogue ACF I know exists for loopholes and to show to the dm if he asks for it, and to see how much endurance the Factotum has, since it sounds like its core mechanic is limited uses/day. I like abilities that are easy to refresh (ToB) or you never run out of (Fighter/Rogue) since then I don't worry about not having them when they're needed most. After a few levels, Bardic Music falls into a similar category.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Swordsage//Rogue/Invisible Blade/Master Thrower/<cherry pick +1d6 SA dips for flavor>

You want bucketfulls of damage output? Here ya go. Pouncing Strike + Time Stands Still + Raging Mongoose + TWF + massive amounts of Sneak Attack dice = lots of fun.

Even better, with the right Setting Sun maneuvers, you're pretty damn hard to hurt too. They swing at you, you make a pathetically easy Sense Motive check, negate the attack, and 5' step out of reach from the rest of the attack progression.

Or, just stand back, use a combination of Sneaky Shot and Chink In The Armor, and sneak attack everything without needing to close.

So yea. Skillmonkey, check. Buckets o' damage dice, check. Survivability, check.

[TheMadLinguist]

spellthief//factotum gets unlimited usage of the factotum's slas, plus sneak attack to add to your iaijutsu. Not much else in favor of it, though if you stagger the progressions with a fighter level you'll get full BAB

[JaronK]

spellthief//factotum gets unlimited usage of the factotum's slas, plus sneak attack to add to your iaijutsu. Not much else in favor of it, though if you stagger the progressions with a fighter level you'll get full BAB

Generally speaking, you want to use fractional BAB with gestalt, so you wouldn't get the full BAB. Also, the Spelltheif sneak attack is lackluster and adds Cha dependency.

JaronK

[JaronK]

It's only super high powered once you dark secret stun + hunter's eye + spam standard actions to pincushion opponent at 11th (or do some other fun trick). At level 4 it's about as powerful as a Warblade//Factotum, if slightly more useful out of combat.

Eh, you're a full caster with complete access to nearly every spell in existence (though it can be a little harder to get some spells, depending on the campaign situation). With some work, you can have Alter Self at level 4, and that's quite nasty.

JaronK

[Icewraith]

Yes, we use fractional accounting for AB and saves. Also, extensive Prestige Class dipping has to be justified IC unless it's a class that's meant to be dipped (Exotic Weapon Master, Archmage, etc). Also (forgot about this one) we houserule you can't get the starting good save (2.5) more than once for each save, so a Wiz5/Good will save prestige class/ditto/ditto doesn't have a will save twice as high as a standard wizard's.

[Gan The Grey]

Holy crap.

I can't believe no one has mentioned Rogue/Warlock with Eldritch Glaive. Lots and lots of d6s all off of a melee touch attack. Invisibility, Flight, Tentacles...

Fun stuff.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Eh, you're a full caster with complete access to nearly every spell in existence (though it can be a little harder to get some spells, depending on the campaign situation). With some work, you can have Alter Self at level 4, and that's quite nasty.

JaronK

Hm, I forgot about the early Alter Self access. Still, Archivist is one of those T1 classes where you really have to work in and out of game to squeeze all the power out of it. The OP can simply opt to avoid finding scrolls made by any Slayers of Domiel; much easier than de-powering a Druid//Swordsage, no?

[Tura]

For melee/skillmonkey, I'd go Rogue 4//Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 1/Swordsage 2. Swordsages have tons of useful maneuvers in low levels. Now that's a sneaky bastard.

Saves are nice, you get enough feats to start with TWF, Weapon Finesse, Adaptive Style and Shadow Blade (= SAD character, DEX only), and BAB won't lag too much (you can take a 2nd Fighter level later and grab ITWF as soon as possible).

For more power, Druid//Ninja is cool and has better defenses, but Druid//Rogue is wonderful, since you can simply flank with your Animal Companion and deal sneak attack on a regular basis. While in the shape of a large bear.

Rogue//Wizard can wreak havoc and is highly customizable.

And Rogue//Beguiler may not super powerful, but is definitely a sneaky bastard - and something I'd like very much to play. :)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Hm, I forgot about the early Alter Self access. Still, Archivist is one of those T1 classes where you really have to work in and out of game to squeeze all the power out of it. The OP can simply opt to avoid finding scrolls made by any Slayers of Domiel; much easier than de-powering a Druid//Swordsage, no?

Warlock cohort or NPC hireling with Imbue Item, Archivist gets Scribe Scroll for free, screw ever needing to find a character of one of those obscure (prestige) classes to make a scroll for you.


I still say go Feat Rogue//Warblade, give or take a few dips and/or PrCs on either side. Take Knock-Down starting out, along with Jotunbrud if possible and anything you hit will get knocked flat. Power Attack two-handed for damage and go for as much out of combat versatility as possible.

[Radar]

I was wondering: would a Bard with Dragonfire Inspiration be a good class to gestalt with a TWF Rogue? It's obviously not the strongest combination, but the sheer number of damage dice (SA + DI) makes it somehow fulfilling. You get some spells out of it as well (up to 9th level, if you go into Sublime Chord) and most of all: you won't be just a sneaky bastard, you will be a magnificant bastard!

Adding Cha to attack and/or damage would be great as well (Snowflake Wardance feat seems to be a popular choice). All this and more was put together in a neat form here.

[Pluto]

I was wondering: would a Bard with Dragonfire Inspiration be a good class to gestalt with a TWF Rogue?

Sure. Especially with Savage Bard for all good saves.

Snowflake Wardance is rough on the weapon selection. And with 4 encounters/day, you might not have music to spare for until around level 10.

If you're optimizing IC, I wouldn't worry about adding Cha to attack. You'll have high bonuses there, regardless.

[Icewraith]

The feat rogue/warblade has me intrigued, plus I found a really interesting rogue alternative class feature from PHB II. Lets me delay getting uncanny dodge 4 levels in order to apply a -5 penalty to the AC of anything I would normally be able to sneak attack instead of sneak attacking it, and this works on creatures that are immune to precision damage. Disrupting attack I believe it's called.

Now, the interpretation is a little wonky for a rogue that has already given up its sneak attack damage for fighter feats, but it also works as an alternative sneak attack concept, because the rogue has given up sneak attack for fighter feats. Plus it still encourages a rogue-like style of combat that emphasizes flanking and ambushes without suddenly penalizing the rogue for having the temerity to encounter undead or constructs. Oozes and barbarians probably qualify as being immune to disrupting attack (due to being immune to flanking and surprise) but everything else works. I can feed that AC penalty straight into Power Attack!

Also, here's why I haven't brought up the rogue//glaive-lock: d6 hd and I'm not sure if the Eldritch Glaive is wielded one or two-handed, and the damage that gets tossed around in Gestalt games can get pretty high. The Scout/Ranger/Enlightened Soul//Warlock is a nifty mobile sniper, doesn't need to burn feats to keep ac high in combat, and picks up 2/3 of the attacking feats it needs from ranger 2. Having 10 foot reach means you're one 5' step away from an opposing full attack (from a medium sized opponent) and you won't have the strength score or extra feats necessary to pull trip-monkey nonsense to prevent that.

Necessary Feat Rogue/Warblade feats (not in order of appearance):

Combat Reflexes
Ex. Weapon Pro: Spiked Chain
Combat Ex/Imp Trip/(Imp Disarm)/Knockdown
Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper

8 minimum feats to be a bastard, maybe 9. Also consider Imp. Sunder and Bull Rush for 11.

also considering Weapon Supremacy Feat Chain, it's a 7-feat chain but makes me a lot better at hitting things, damaging them, and eventually lets me full attack with a spiked chain in a grapple. At high level there are a lot of things with swallow whole, it's something to consider.
...I'd have to go straight combat rogue//warblade to get them all, though. Warblade gets bonus feats but I don't think any of those are on my list, the Warblade bonus feat list is really weird IIRC. Granted if it turns out I can use those for weapon mastery feats I only need to use 2 of my actual feat slots on them. 13-7=6, so minimum Rogue levels in the 10 range.

Skills are at minimum:
Disable Device
Spot
Search
Listen
Jump
Tumble
(UMD)
(Bluff)
(Sleight)

Parenthetical skills are skills that may not be on 6 skill point class-dip lists, such as shadowdancer or swordsage, or skills that would probably be dropped first. 13 int is minimum for combat expertise, not sure what else to take if I go for the extra point there or am human. Sense Motive, then Diplomacy I think.

This build is best served with a chilled goliath, although the dex penalty hurts the ability to make standing long jumps without penalty and the +4 str are excellent for a build that will be relying on power attack to deal damage and trip. The question then becomes... 16 to str or dex?

either 20 str 12 dex 16 con 13 int 10 wis 8 cha
or 18 str 14 dex 16 con 13 int 10 wis 8 cha after racials. Does swordsage actually need wis to do anything or does it just pump save dcs for those maneuvers that require a save?





This isn't the final version but if I were to go this route it would definitely make my dm pull out his hair. Tripping with reach, good damage, good mobility from warblade and maybe some tricky stuff from a future dip in shadowdancer or swordsage.