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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Weimann's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Fighter Manifesto - Please Contribute!

    Wonderful initiative! I'm not able to contribute properly due to poor system knowledge, but I will state two things that stuck me right away.

    1) Take into account that there are really many many many types of fighters. The great warrior who gloriously slaughters his enemies in a heroic rage is one type. The upright soldier who form ranks, do his part by not breaking line and are individually weak but strong in numbers are one. The leader who overlooks such people can also be one, as can the archers and such that control a battlefield. (Okay, rangers use bows, but they are hunters and outdoorsmen. Fighters can use all weapons. I feel a bow spec can work wonders for a fighter as well, particularly within battlefield control.) Keep this in mind when determing what is thematic for the fighter class.

    2) There is some aversion to giving the fighter a magical touch. In D&D, this is a problem because most everything that does anything functionally distinct from different kinds of killing is a spell or anything supernatural. Fighters are put at this natural disadvantage. I feel that skills need to at least toe the line to supernal, or the desire for "normality" will keep the utility of the class down.

    Good luck :)
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: The Fighter Manifesto - Please Contribute!

    An idea I had on feats:

    How about this: some feats are known as pretty useless, i.e. Weapon Focus. How about changing them to something like:

    Weapon Focus

    Choose a weapon. You gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls with that weapon.

    Special: A fighter instead gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls per four fighter levels, and a damage equal to one half his fighter level with the chosen weapon.


    Another problem:
    You said there are many kinds of warriors, and that is true. However, quite a lof these are already covered well by other classes. Want to be a leader? Be a slightly reflavoured bard, a marshall or a Warblade focusing on the White Raven school.
    Want to slaughter enemies left and right while trampling them into the blood-soaked mud, laughing and screaming as you are covered in gore? That's a barbarian.

    Basically, the problem is finding the fighter's niche, not giving him abilities which left him also partially cover another class'.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: The Fighter Manifesto - Please Contribute!

    I think the 'feats scale' idea has a lot of merit to it because it frees up future feats which would otherwise be devoted to doing that very same thing to pursue other options.

    Case in point: If I pick up TWF, then I automatically can ITWF and GTWF when my BAB gets high enough to have iterative attacks of the appropriate number. This frees up 2 feats, which can then be put towards more interesting options.

    Honestly, I'd like to see the situation wherein someone faces a Fighter in combat and goes "Whoa, I'm not gettin' close to that mo-fo... screw dat!"

    This is a flexible class with several possible roles, including Meat Shield, Beatstick, and Battlefield Control. Eventually, if we design it right, you might even be able to be all three. But only if you are a Fighter.

    The biggest flaw with Fighter is that everyone ELSE gets feats as well, and can generally cherry-pick the best feats for themselves without needing to be a Fighter. There is nothing unique to a Fighter that another class can't also pick up, along with class abilities. This is, in my opinion, what needs to be fixed about the Fighter. Give it options, sure, but give it options other classes don't have access to.

    With this philisophy in mind, I propose the following simple change:

    Replace bonus feats with Style Points. A Fighter gets Style Points at the same rate he used to get Bonus Feats.

    Style Points may be used to purchase fighter-specific abilities, or they may be used to purchase bonus feats. These fighter specific abilities may include the following:

    * Taunt (Ex)
    The Fighter can make an Intimidate check much like a Demoralize option, only without any bonuses from fear effects. If successful, the target of the Taunt must target the Fighter for (some number of rounds) as his primary target of hostility. This will not work on Mindless opponents, but is not mind-affecting.

    * Crippling Blow (Ex)
    The Fighter targets his opponent's limbs, rather than going for the kill shot. As an attack action, he may make an opposed attack roll. If he wins, he lands a crippling blow, which impairs that limb for (some number of rounds). However, if he fails, his opponent gets an immediate Attack of Opportunity against him for leaving himself open. His opponent ONLY gets this AoO if the fighter looses the contested attack roll.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: The Fighter Manifesto - Please Contribute!

    A nice idea. Intimidate really is a skill the fighter should be using more anyway.


    Suggestion: the fighter, as he is now, has a lot of empty levels. Instead of replacing all the bonus feats, how about this:

    We leave the bonus feats he has. There are so many fighter bonus feats in all the books out there, it would be sad to waste them all. Make a few new ones as well, and bind them into trees.

    Then take the empty levels and give them the things you suggest on the other levels. An intimidation tree (the barbarian has it via feats, why not the fighter) is a good one as well. There are various intimidation feats, we could give similar abilities to the fighter. Free intimidate attempts against enemies he attacks in melee, perhaps?

    I still dislike the taunt thing, however. Many have said it, it feels too much like mind control, even if it isn't, by the rules. How would your players react if you told them "you feel that it is necessary to stab the guy in adamantine mountain plate instead of the robed old man blasting you with searing rays of fire, since he seems much more dangerous, and he is taunting you."
    "Après la vie - le mort, après le mort, la vie de noveau.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: The Fighter Manifesto - Please Contribute!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I still dislike the taunt thing, however. Many have said it, it feels too much like mind control, even if it isn't, by the rules. How would your players react if you told them "you feel that it is necessary to stab the guy in adamantine mountain plate instead of the robed old man blasting you with searing rays of fire, since he seems much more dangerous, and he is taunting you."
    The guy in adamantine mountain plate who just insinuated that your <parental figure> was overly enamored with a/n <opposing faction/race> which is why his looks were clearly diminished, although a <other opposing faction/race> might consider it fetching...

    Piss something off, they're going to go after you.

    They were only suggestions, mind you, but the concept of a resource used to customize your Fighter with options not available to any other class is what I was trying to drive home.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
    All hail great Shneekeythulhu! Ia Ia Shneeky fthagn
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    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
    Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
    Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
    Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

    My homebrew world in progress: Falcora

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: The Fighter Manifesto - Please Contribute!

    I think the best way to realisitcally build agro is not by forcing other creatures to attack the fighter, but to make it in their very best interest to do so.

    There's a fighter and a wizard and the fighter steps in the way of an attacker. As it is, the attacker will just run by the fighter because the wizard is more likely to kill him, and you can take him out without worrying too much about that guy with the sword. Just ignore him now and deal with him after the real threat is out of the fight.

    Instead the attacker should focus on the fighter, because the fighter will just tear him to shreds if he ignores him for two or three rounds to kill the wizard. You don't have to taunt him to attack you, he could attack you purely for the sake of self preservation.

    How to do that? I currently have no idea.
    Rogues have sneak attack, which has a very similar effect but just giving it to fighters would be cheap.
    Maybe something like reversed dodge: The fighter concentrates on one target, and that target has to attack the fighter, or the fighter gets a big boost in attack power.

    One thing I like about the Tome Fighter is the ability to make 5 ft. steps as an immediate action. That way, when you see an enemy nearby trying something funny, you might get close enough to get an attack of opportunity, or even block his path.

    Tactical Combat (General)
    Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes.
    Benefit: Once per round, you can take a 5 ft. step as an immediate action. This 5. ft. step is in addition to the one you can make on your turn.

    What also might be interesting, is to allow a 5 ft. step after every attack.

    Follow Up Attack (General)
    Prerequisite: Base Attack Bonus +6.
    Benefit: When you make a full attack, you can make a 5 ft. step after each of your attacks. When you have no target to attack, you can skip one of your attacks but make the associated 5. ft step anyway. For example, a 12th level fighter could make one attack at +12 BAB and then take a 5 ft. step. He could then skip his seccond attack with a BAB of +7 and take another 5 ft. step, and then make his third attack at +2 BAB. You can not move distances greater than your normal movement rate.

    I'm unsure about TWF though. Should the number of 5 ft. steps be limited by the number of attacks by BAB, or by the actual number of attacks the character has? Moving down a corridor for 30 ft. and hacking at 6 people on your way would be pretty cool. Seems a bit powerful, but then TWF is considered pretty weak.

    I would also like a rewrite for Whirlwind Attack. It requires 4 feats, 3 of which are based on dodging and movement, and you do neither during the round you use Whirlwind Attack. Only Combat Expertise would be somewhat justified.
    Last edited by Yora; 2010-04-23 at 09:08 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: The Fighter Manifesto - Please Contribute!

    How about...

    Block the Way

    Prerequisite: Str 13, Combat Reflexes, Tactical Combat, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, BAB +8

    Benefit: When making a five-foot step outside your own turn using Tactical Combat, you may step in the path of another creature's movement. If you do so, make a bull rush attempt against that creature. If you are successful, that creature's movement ends in the square it occupied when you first came into direct contact. If you win by 5 points or more, the target falls prone.




    Oh, and perhaps also add Cleave to the requirements of Follow-up attack?
    Actually, wasn't there already something like this, with steps between cleave attacks?
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: The Fighter Manifesto - Please Contribute!

    I think that a fighter should both be a threat to creatures when defending (currently, most damage dealers are chargers, and it's obvious that you can't run in this case, and full attacks are not threatening enough).
    So, new options for combat are needed.

    Some ideas: Have Stand Still be a combat option instead of a feat (you can make a bullrush like check to stop movement, in the same way that you can make a trip attempt)
    Then the feat would be something like: Gain +2 bonus to your attack of opportunity and bullrush attempt when caused by a foe that is running past you, and you still deal your normal damage for that attack of opportunity.

    Some defender like feat ideas too:

    Ally Defender: Any ally within range of your threatened area receives a +2 (deflection? cover? untyped?) bonus to his AC, as you use your own attacks to foil your enemy's advances. Special: If you do the defense or total defense action, or use Combat Expertise, you can transfer the AC bonuses to your ally intead of yourfelf. Penalties for your own attack rolls apply as normal.
    (notice that this allow a group to "turtle" around, protecting each other. Of course, it'll make group attacks difficult, unless the people in the back use reach weapons, ranged, or spells, and makes them easy targets for AoEs)

    Avenging Guardian: Whenever an enemy attacks one of your allies, you can make an attack of opportunity against that enemy with a +2 bonus to your attack roll.
    (just another opportunist-like feat)

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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default My Prior Art P.E.A.C.H. still welcome.

    Well, I have several pre-existing contributions to this... please tell me what you think, since most of these got very little to no review (partially my fault in some cases since some of them were always part of a larger post...), and I think this project puts people in the right frame of mind to consider them in their proper context.

    Of all things a SPELL... because they messed this up trying to fix something else in the transition from 3.0 to 3.5, and teamwork tastes good to me...
    True Haste.
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    True Haste
    Target: One Creature Touched

    As per Haste(Including which level it is for which classes) except that no bonus to base movement rate is given, but if the creature forgoes the extra attack granted, or does not attack in a given round it gains an additional move action (which may ONLY be used for movement).

    Hey presto, its allows full-attacks after movement again! I could see giving this a 30 foot range for casting it... still should be single target, and be aware that it turns dragons that can cast it into even more of mobile wood-chippers into which PCs get feed than they already are... Also useful to allow Monks to break land-speed records, but that is another thing entirely...


    HOUSE RULE that allows fighters to do what low level arcanists should do when really trapped (note that the reflex save stuff is new as of this posting, rather than being pre-existing like the rest of this):
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    Two new actions:
    Steel Will fighting
    Equivalent action to Fighting Defensively, provides no bonuses to AC or Reflex saves, but DOES give a +2 to Will saves instead.

    Total mental defense
    Equivalent action to Total Defense, provides no bonuses to AC or Reflex saves, but DOES give a +4 to Will saves instead.


    Also (and less importantly for fighters) :
    Evasive Maneuvers:
    Equivalent action to Fighting Defensively, provides no bonuses to AC, but DOES give a +2 to Reflex saves instead.

    Total Evasion:
    Equivalent action to Total Defense, provides no bonuses to AC or, but DOES give a +4 to Reflex saves instead.

    Feel free to increase the bonuses from +2/+4 to +3/+6 if this seems under-powered... even +4/+8 might be allowed by some groups (but that would have to be a feat or fighter class feature or something). Also, since they both involve physically avoiding/countering threats, you might allow Fighting Defensively and Total Defense to ALSO give bonuses to reflex saves, INSTEAD of having Evasive Maneuvers and Total Evasion as separate actions from those two.
    For another house rule, by someone else, that deals with another problem, see "Attribute skill points" listed in the feats section.

    FEATS:
    Feats are the fighter's current bread and butter... here are my feats, all of which are useful to fighters.

    Similar to "Block the Way" (and perhaps inspiring it? I like to pretend people actually read my work even after it is past the "necro-zone"...)
    Blocker and Improved Blocker
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    Blocker [Fighter]
    "You shall not pass!"
    Prerequisites: Expertise, Combat Reflexes, BAB +3
    Benefits: For the purposes of the Total Defense action, you count as having 5 ranks in the tumble skill. When you take the full defense action, your ability to make attacks of opportunity is not negated, and you gain +2 to hit with such attacks. The DC of tumble checks to avoid provoking an AoO from you is increased by 5.
    If you do not take a 5 foot step on your turn while using total defense as a full-round action, then once per round you may take a 5 foot step as an immediate action, before an action that would provoke an attack of opportunity from your new position, but not your old one is resolved. You must then make the attack of opportunity in question. If the provoking action is movement, the provoking character may negate the attack immediately after you move by stopping short in such a way that he is within your threatened area at the end of the move, but would not have provoked an AoO if you had started his turn in the square you now occupy.
    Moving in this way does not break a Dwarven Defender's defensive stance, nor Stone Dragon Stances, nor a Deepstone Sentinel's Mountain Fortress stance, nor any other similar stance or ability.
    Normal: You may not make attacks of opportunity in a round you took full defense and may not move as a reaction to create an attack of opportunity.
    Special: A fighter may take this feat as one of his bonus feats.


    Improved Blocker [Fighter]
    "NONE of you shall pass!"
    Prerequisites: Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Blocker, BAB +10
    Benefits: When using the Blocker Feat, you may may move a total distance up to your speed in 5' steps each round (as measured from the end of one your turns to the start of the next), but only as provided by the Blocker feat (plus a single 5' step on your turn) and only as long as you have AoO's remaining. This means that you may only take a single 5' step each time someone moves in such a way as to activate the Blocker feat.
    Moving in this way does not break a Dwarven Defender's defensive stance, nor Stone Dragon Stances, nor a Deepstone Sentinel's Mountain Fortress stance, nor any other similar stance or ability no matter how many 5' steps are taken.

    Special: A fighter may take this feat as one of his bonus feats.



    And here is how we make "Dumb Jock" not an oxymoron any more... in fact, you might consider making this feat FREE for all fighters who qualify (note that the GM should probably allow players to reduce their INT scores so they qualify so that GOOD rolls at character creation don't mess them up). Don't let the slightly silly flavor text fool you either...
    Brawn Over Brain
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    Brawn Over Brain[General]
    Some people use their understanding to gain greater insight into how to perform better physically... others don't let having the attention span of a squirrel on a sugar rush stop them from having the acrobatic skills of one.
    Prerequisites:
    Intelligence 11 or lower (minimum 3)
    Strength greater than Intelligence
    Constitution greater than Intelligence
    Dexterity greater than Intelligence
    Benefits: Replace your intelligence modifier with a 1 when calculating the number of skill points you get each level.
    Drawbacks:
    You may not put skill points into or take feats that give bonuses to NORMALLY cross-class Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma based skills, and such skills that NORMALLY are class skills count as cross class (but never exclusive to another class). This means (for example) that a Rogue with this feat can still put skill points into Use Magic Device, but he only gets 1 skill rank per 2 skill points he puts into it and a can have a maximum number of ranks in the skill of (Character Level +3)/2.
    For the above purposes, "Speak Language" is considered to be an Intelligence based skill. which means, for example, that a fighter with this feat can't put skill-points into "Speak Language" and a bard with this feat would treat "Speak Language" as a cross-class skill. There are still no skill rolls involved and still no such thing as "partially fluent" in a language.
    Normal: The number of skill points you get each level is affected by your intelligence modifier.
    Special: A fighter may take this as one of her bonus feats. A Monk may take this feat as her first level bonus feat instead of Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist.

    I also saw a post a while back about a house-rule variation on how skill points that should work that fixes this same problem... Let me see if I can find a link... Ah, here we go...
    Attribute Skill points by Random832.
    First post, and one later post, reproduced here for tab reduction (see full thread if it isn't clear).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Random832 View Post
    Our example will be a 6-INT Barbarian.

    First, lay out your stat bonuses in order from largest to smallest:
    16 STR 3
    15 DEX 2
    14 CON 2
    12 WIS 1
    10 CHA 0
    6 INT -2

    Add your class skill points (4 for a barbarian) to each row:

    STR 7
    DEX 6
    CON 6
    WIS 5
    CHA 4
    INT 2

    If at this point, any of the numbers is 0 or less, set it to 1.

    You now have seven skill points total for this level. No more than six may be spent on DEX or CON skills, no more than five may be spent on WIS skills, no more than four on CHA skills, no more than two on INT skills.

    Or, put differently, take the differences between each one and the next below
    STR 1
    DEX
    CON 1
    WIS 1
    CHA 2

    You must spend one point on a STR skill (or lose it, I suppose). Then you have one more point you can spend on any skills that use STR DEX or CON. Then the next point can be spent on any of those or a WIS skill. Then the next two points can be spent on CHA skills in addition to those already listed, and your last two skill points can be spent on any skill.

    Speak Language and Mental skill tricks are considered INT-based. Interaction skill tricks are considered CHA-based. Manipulation and Movement skill tricks are considered DEX-based.

    On first level, obviously, multiply these numbers by four.

    This scheme obviously tends to benefit people who dump INT, as it results in higher skill point totals generally for non-INT-based characters. Conversely, someone with 18 INT who dumps CHA isn't going to be able to put as many ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, etc.

    The general goal is to remove INT-dependency from classes which rely on skill usage.

    DM Option: Assign a different attribute as the basis for learning a skill than the one that gets added when rolling the skill. e.g. Con for Swimming or Dex for certain Perform skills.

    DM Option: Make skill points gained above the int-based ones only allowed to buy class skills, or even buy class skills at the cross-class rate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Random832 View Post
    Well, the skill points you have only by virtue of your highest stat can only be spent on skills that use that stat.



    Basically.

    Think of it this way. The "#"s are arranged vertically by the number of skill points you would get based on that stat.
    Code:
      SDCWHI (H - cHarisma)
    7 #      ] This point can only be spent on STR skills
    6 ###    ] This point can be spent on S/D/C skills
    5 ####   ] This point can be spent on S/D/C/W skill
    4 #####  ] These points can be spent on any non-INT skill
    3 #####
    2 ###### ] These points can be spent on any skill
    1 ######
      766542



    Back to my feats, here is one that allows you to do a hit-and-run fighter, while still supporting your rogue buddy's sneak attack.
    Gemini Strike
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    Gemini Strike[General][Fighter]
    You and a team-mate strike as one, speeding by to deliver such well coordinated blows that you gain the benefits of both hit-and-run tactics, and superior positioning... and then some.

    Prerequisites:
    • Ride-by Attack OR Fly-by Attack OR Spring Attack, OR Swim-by Attack
    • Dodge AND Mobility
    • Sneak Attack +2d6 OR Skirmish +1d6/+1 OR BAB +6


    Benefits:
    Two or more allied creatures may activate who each have this feat may activate it when initiative is called for, but before it is actually rolled. They must declare which specific individuals they are activating it with, and all members of a group must have this feat. In such a case they both/all act on the lowest initiative in the group.
    Alternatively, groups may be formed mid-combat by all prospective group members announcing such on their respective turns which are then delayed to an initiative 2 points lower than the lowest one in the group. IF any prospective group member elects not to enter the forming group, then the others already in the group may elect to proceed with only the members who are already delaying, who act immediately, in order of the initiatives they had before they started delaying.
    While acting together, group members must use the same types of actions (Full round, Swift, Move Equivalent, Standard), in the same order, and each of these actions is taken simultaneously with every other member of the group. (although they may always use any type of action to do nothing at all to maintain this synchronization). If moving at the same time, they must expend proportionate (or equal if they have the same speed) amounts of their movement at the same times, although slowing down is modeled as expending movement without changing squares.
    If two or more members of a group have each moved at least 10 feet, will (unless something changes to prevent them) move a further 10 feet, currently are creating a flank with each other against that opponent and are using any of the feats that allow movement both before and after an attack, then they each gain an additional +1 to hit against that opponent, and each deal an additional 1d6 of Sneak Attack damage, provided that individual is already dealing at least +2d6 of Sneak or Skirmish damage.
    Normal: Turns are taken in sequential order.
    Special: A fighter may take this as one of her bonus feats.



    This next one is a bit specialized, and if you think it is underpowered, just make uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge feats (perhaps with Fighter-level pre-requisites when taken as feats, rather than class features).
    Ignore Opponent
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    Ignore Opponent [Fighter]
    You can shut the unskillful out of your awareness in order to keep them from distracting you from more dangerous foes.
    Prerequisites: WIS 13
    Benefits: As a free action you may select one or more opponents that you did not attack on your current or previous turn to ignore. You may so designate:
    • Any opponent or opponents you wish during your turn.
    • Either one of a pair of flankers that just came into existance or to your awareness (such as if one of them was previously invisible) against you.
    • Any opponent that moves into a position where it threatens you or when you become aware of it in such a position (for instance if becomes visible where previously invisible).
    The number of opponents you are ignoring at any one time may not exceed your Wisdom modifier. Ignored opponents do not count when determining whether you are flanked by non-ignored opponents, but you always count as flanked by and flat-footed against ignored opponents. When using the aid-another action ignored opponents only grant a +1 to AC or to-hit for opponents attacking you or for your attacks against other opponents. You may not target an ignored opponent specifically, including with the Dodge feat and similar feats, effects, or manauvers. Ignoring resets at the start of your turn.
    Normal: Anyone who threatens you counts towards causing you to be flanked, and the aid another action gives a +2 bonus.
    Special: A fighter may take this as one of his bonus feats. If you later gain Improved Uncanny Dodge as a class feature (not from an item or spell), then you may retrain, replacing this feat with any other feat you could have qualified for at the level you took it.

    Should this be turned into a plain-old combat action?

    Should a Concentration modifier of +3 be a prerequisite?

    Is the retraining clause going to be too much book-keeping?



    Weapon Enchantments:
    Flickering
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    A weapon enchantment I came up with. I have heard it said that fighter types have too few options, this might be one more option... although it does still come down to hit-point damage.


    Flickering
    Upon command this weapon and the arm(s) that wield it split into multiple slightly translucent versions of themselves, literally existing in more than one place at a time. These versions move somewhat independently, sliding through each-other, merging, splitting, and weaving around each-other.

    When this effect is activated, all attack rolls with it are replaced with Reflex saves by the target. The DC is 10 + 1/2 the attack bonus for that particular attack (including any circumstance bonuses or penalties that may apply). On a failed save the strike deals damage normally on a successful save the attack is considered to have missed. Miss chances, damage reduction, Deflect Arrows, etc still apply if they would have against the original attack (E.G. without this enchantment), however the attack deals full damage and more against swarms, counting as an area of effect attack for that purpose. Improved Evasion is also effective against it, granting the target half damage even on a failed save. Iterative attacks may be made with the weapon at decreasing DCs as per the number of attacks that would normally be allowed. Ranged weapons with this enchantment active bestow the effect on their ammunition which splits into quasi-real copies of itself in mid-flight. Melee weapons and the arms that wield them also appear to have their existence split between multiple locations at once. The effects of this enchantment may be halted or resumed as a free action by the wielder with a word.
    May not be used in conjunction with Power Attack. Functions normally (reducing the DC in exchange for AC) with Expertise. Negates precision based damage (but NOT any to associated to-hit bonuses, such as from a ranger's favored enemy bonuses), renders Keen, Vorpal, and Improved Critical moot. Projectiles enchanted in this manner split as soon as they are fired/thrown. Ranged weapons with this enchantment display no visual effect themselves, but bestow the enchantment on their ammunition.
    Faint Illusion (and Transmutation?); Caster level 5th; Craft Magical Weapons and Armor, Shadow Conjuration, Mirror Image; Price +3 bonus.



    This one deals with a problem I have NEVER had come up in a game, but I will include it for the sake of argument.
    Mole
    Spoiler
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    Mole (+1 enchantment equivalent?, Set cost?)
    Primarily found on large non-piercing melee weapons and occasionally on projectiles, most (all in the case of a projectile) of this weapon passes through worked and unworked earth and stone (including UNworked metal) like it wasn't there (cf brilliant energy). This allows the use of big weapons without penalty in narrow tunnels. There are two styles of this. One leaves the grip area as the unenchanted portion. The other has a rock shaped protrusion for the pommel or as a feature on the non-attacking. This makes for the occasional bruised knuckles when a strike goes a little too far into a wall, but allows dropping the weapon on bare rock or dirt to appear unarmed (just a rock laying there...). For projectiles this turns cover into concealment in many cases, and even blind fire through a castle wall can be pretty demoralizing (or even effective with flame arrows). In any case, back-up weapons are a must in case of earth elementals, and stone and clay golems.

    Termite
    The even rarer version of the above, phases through wood instead of earth. Popular among druids, rangers, elves, gnomes, and others who often fight in dense underbrush.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2010-04-23 at 12:25 PM.
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    Wait...

    evasive action gives a bonus to reflex saves instead of reflex saves?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Wait...

    evasive action gives a bonus to reflex saves instead of reflex saves?
    Fixed (I think...)

    I probably originally intended that Fighting Defensively and Total Defense would ALSO give the Reflex save bonus, since both involve dodging around. That might still be a good way to do it... in fact, let me go edit in that as another possible tweak to the rules.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2010-04-23 at 12:23 PM.
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    Gemini strike is enormously complicated to read through, though I get what it does. And I'm quite certain you can't say it in any simpler way. Interesting, though.
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    The niche of the fighter should be, IMHO, fighting skill. To continue my idea from my previous post (here), the "Super Feats" would include boosted version of fighter feats. For exemple, the weapon focus feat could be made to scale with levels, TWF would give the next steps automatically, etc.

    This would show that even tough other classes can gain these abilities, the have other things to focus on (there other class abilities) and cannot master them like a fighter, who focuses all his training on stuff like that.

    Should he be better at, say, archery than an archery centered class? No, but he should be able to do other things better than him at the same time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
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    Gemini Strike[General][Fighter]
    You and a team-mate strike as one, speeding by to deliver such well coordinated blows that you gain the benefits of both hit-and-run tactics, and superior positioning... and then some.

    Prerequisites:
    • Ride-by Attack OR Fly-by Attack OR Spring Attack, OR Swim-by Attack
    • Dodge AND Mobility
    • Sneak Attack +2d6 OR Skirmish +1d6/+1 OR BAB +6


    Benefits:
    Two or more allied creatures may activate who each have this feat may activate it when initiative is called for, but before it is actually rolled. They must declare which specific individuals they are activating it with, and all members of a group must have this feat. In such a case they both/all act on the lowest initiative in the group.
    Alternatively, groups may be formed mid-combat by all prospective group members announcing such on their respective turns which are then delayed to an initiative 2 points lower than the lowest one in the group. IF any prospective group member elects not to enter the forming group, then the others already in the group may elect to proceed with only the members who are already delaying, who act immediately, in order of the initiatives they had before they started delaying.
    While acting together, group members must use the same types of actions (Full round, Swift, Move Equivalent, Standard), in the same order, and each of these actions is taken simultaneously with every other member of the group. (although they may always use any type of action to do nothing at all to maintain this synchronization). If moving at the same time, they must expend proportionate (or equal if they have the same speed) amounts of their movement at the same times, although slowing down is modeled as expending movement without changing squares.
    If two or more members of a group have each moved at least 10 feet, will (unless something changes to prevent them) move a further 10 feet, currently are creating a flank with each other against that opponent and are using any of the feats that allow movement both before and after an attack, then they each gain an additional +1 to hit against that opponent, and each deal an additional 1d6 of Sneak Attack damage, provided that individual is already dealing at least +2d6 of Sneak or Skirmish damage.
    Normal: Turns are taken in sequential order.
    Special: A fighter may take this as one of her bonus feats.
    I think you may want to write it more like this:
    Spoiler
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    Gemini Strike
    Prerequisites:
    • Ride-by Attack OR Fly-by Attack OR Spring Attack, OR Swim-by Attack
    • Dodge AND Mobility
    • Sneak Attack +2d6 OR Skirmish +1d6/+1 OR BAB +6


    Benefit:You may act simultaneously with any other willing ally or creature which shares your initiative count and possesses this feat. You are still limited to you're normal economy of actions in a turn (Standard, Move, Swift, Immediate, and Free). But you and your ally may determine the order of both of your actions to the best strategic effect.
    If you and your ally attack a single target while utilizing the other benefits of this feat you receive a +1 to all attack and damage rolls against that target for the duration of the turn for each participating ally. You also are considered Flanking and Aiding Another for the purpose of that attack (even if you ordinarily wouldn't qualify for flanking, such as using a ranged weapon, or not standing on opposite sides of a monster) receiving bonuses as appropriate.
    If you and your ally end you conjoined turn standing within 5ft of each other you receive a +1 bonus to AC and all saves for each participating ally within five feat. You receive the bonus's of any of the following feats your ally possesses as if you possessed them yourself: Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Dodge or Combat reflexes. You also threaten an area as if you were standing in the square occupied by any participating ally within 5ft in addition to you're own space. These bonuses last until the beginning of your next turn.
    Normal: Turns between characters acting on the same initiative go in order of highest initiative modifier.


    Because the impression I got from what you wrote is that the group acts as one organism doing the same thing (like synchronized swimming) which is kinda silly. It's also really complicated. The above writing is much clearer, and provides bonuses for being a unit rather than a puppet attached to one character's action. Some of the bonuses are big (Flanking and Aid Another bonuses to all attacks on the same target and +1 attack and damage per participant on top of it. Threat as if you occupied 2+ spaces and "free" feats.) but they're all thematically appropriate (creating openings through attacking simultaneously, watching each other's backs and so forth).
    Last edited by Zeful; 2010-04-23 at 02:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeful View Post
    I think you may want to write it more like this:
    Spoiler
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    Gemini Strike
    Prerequisites:
    • Ride-by Attack OR Fly-by Attack OR Spring Attack, OR Swim-by Attack
    • Dodge AND Mobility
    • Sneak Attack +2d6 OR Skirmish +1d6/+1 OR BAB +6


    Benefit:You may act simultaneously with any other willing ally or creature which shares your initiative count and possesses this feat. You are still limited to you're normal economy of actions in a turn (Standard, Move, Swift, Immediate, and Free). But you and your ally may determine the order of both of your actions to the best strategic effect.
    If you and your ally attack a single target while utilizing the other benefits of this feat you receive a +1 to all attack and damage rolls against that target for the duration of the turn for each participating ally. You also are considered Flanking and Aiding Another for the purpose of that attack (even if you ordinarily wouldn't qualify for flanking, such as using a ranged weapon, or not standing on opposite sides of a monster) receiving bonuses as appropriate.
    If you and your ally end you conjoined turn standing within 5ft of each other you receive a +1 bonus to AC and all saves for each participating ally within five feat. You receive the bonus's of any of the following feats your ally possesses as if you possessed them yourself: Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Dodge or Combat reflexes. You also threaten an area as if you were standing in the square occupied by any participating ally within 5ft in addition to you're own space. These bonuses last until the beginning of your next turn.
    Normal: Turns between characters acting on the same initiative go in order of highest initiative modifier.


    Because the impression I got from what you wrote is that the group acts as one organism doing the same thing (like synchronized swimming) which is kinda silly. It's also really complicated. The above writing is much clearer, and provides bonuses for being a unit rather than a puppet attached to one character's action. Some of the bonuses are big (Flanking and Aid Another bonuses to all attacks on the same target and +1 attack and damage per participant on top of it. Threat as if you occupied 2+ spaces and "free" feats.) but they're all thematically appropriate (creating openings through attacking simultaneously, watching each other's backs and so forth).

    Some of the ways you said things (especially the way the action-types have to be synced) might be clearer than the way I did (I will let others determine that, since we both know what we individually meant). But the changes you made are not the way I intended it at all.

    Flanking should NOT be free with the feat, that actually kills the entire thematic point that I ORIGINALLY designed the feat for (see Castor and Pollux, noting the section on their combat tactics, and the mechanics of the Arc Vests). If you want something like that, then my suggestion would be to also grab adaptable Flanker for the character(s), or make it a separate feat that requires mine as a pre-requisite. (Not that I would be uninterested in knowing how actual play turned out with your version).

    If the feat is under-powered I could see throwing free "aid another" bonuses against common targets.

    Sharing feats would be a real stretch to what I was thinking of, but possible if necessary for balance purposes (but it sounds REALLY powerful since you are getting multiple feats for the price of one).

    I think your version is probably overpowered... I shudder to think what a higher level parallel of Tucker's Kobolds could do with your version, but mine seems like it would be rather interesting. YMMV, and I would be interested to see what other people think...
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2010-04-23 at 04:38 PM.
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    This thread inspired an idea that might substitute for a taunting mechanism. I call it:

    Harass - You may designate one opponent each Round that you intend to engage in combat. By making obvious threats against the opponent, they must devote a certain amount of attention to you during each Round. The result is as follows; if the designated opponent does not engage you in combat they provoke an Attack of Opportunity from you each Round you use this feature on them.

    What do you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Some of the ways you said things (especially the way the action-types have to be synced) might be clearer than the way I did (I will let others determine that, since we both know what we individually meant).
    I modeled it after Descent: JitD. You control 1 of four characters and you have to decides who goes when as a group as there's no initiative stat to say who goes first. Most of the time it really doesn't matter beyond small tactics. This gives a lot of tactical flexibility, especially with Swift and Immediate action spells. Your's is tactically limiting (Everyone uses the same type of action in the same order as one character).

    But the changes you made are not the way I intended it at all.

    Flanking should NOT be free with the feat, that actually kills the entire thematic point that I ORIGINALLY designed the feat for (see Castor and Pollux, noting the section on their combat tactics, and the mechanics of the Arc Vests). If you want something like that, then my suggestion would be to also grab adaptable Flanker for the character(s), or make it a separate feat that requires mine as a pre-requisite. (Not that I would be uninterested in knowing how actual play turned out with your version).
    I included it because I figured it made sense. You could remove it you want.

    As for the Arc Vests. I fail to see what Flanking has to do with their activation.

    If the feat is under-powered I could see throwing free "aid another" bonuses against common targets.
    The entire feat seems to be about aiding another in some capacity. That much just made sense.

    Sharing feats would be a real stretch to what I was thinking of, but possible if necessary for balance purposes (but it sounds REALLY powerful since you are getting multiple feats for the price of one).
    Only specific feats, and you have to be 5ft from someone who bought one of those feats with the remaining 4 feats they have (they use three meeting the prerequisites of yours, and none of them are on the list). I see no problem with it.

    I think your version is probably overpowered... I shudder to think what a higher level parallel of Tucker's Kobolds could do with your version, but mine seems like it would be rather interesting. YMMV, and I would be interested to see what other people think...
    Having at least two level 6 Kobold fighters is a little beyond the scope of Tucker's Kobolds. But yes the more people that use it in concert, the more powerful it gets.

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    The general concept with it is to combine spring-attack with flanking, without granting the enemy anyone within melee range at the start of their turn.

    With the arc vests for Castor and Pollux, change "melee range" to "charging range".

    Also, any adventuring party where EVERYONE has that feat is either nuts, or very very nonstandard. Two, MAYBE three people should have it, everyone else should be doing other things... In addition, just because you HAVE the feat, doesn't mean you HAVE to use it every round...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeful View Post
    Having at least two level 6 Kobold fighters is a little beyond the scope of Tucker's Kobolds. But yes the more people that use it in concert, the more powerful it gets.
    Nah, nah... I am talking about the Wyrmling and Very Young green dragons with 5 or so class levels (or whatever) that you replace Tucker's Kobold's with when the party gets to higher levels... still using Tucker's Kobolds degree of skill in tactics...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    The general concept with it is to combine spring-attack with flanking, without granting the enemy anyone within melee range at the start of their turn.
    I get that, but it seems kinda gimicky when you think about it, you have to have two characters that are melee exclusive and willing to use it at the same time. It seems linear. What I pictured was more of the Rogue rushing forward as the Ranger is covering him with arrows. And just as the Rogue is about to strike, he feels the sideways push of the Swift action Buff that the cleric dropped on him. And then blades meet bad guy as the fighter comes from behind and bull rushes him into a pit. Which I feel is more cinematic and appropriate for the game.

    Also, any adventuring party where EVERYONE has that feat is either nuts, or very very nonstandard. Two, MAYBE three people should have it, everyone else should be doing other things... In addition, just because you HAVE the feat, doesn't mean you HAVE to use it every round...
    That's kind of why fighters have problems in D&D. If they get awesome abilities, they shouldn't use them every round or they should be very limited. This feat requires three not so great feats (Honestly, I'd change it to Improved Initiative, Mobility, and either 2d6+ Sneak Attack/Skirmish/Sudden Strike or +4 Base Attack Bonus) used by two people as well as this one. Your version doesn't provide enough benefits to make that initial investment worthwhile (I doubt mine does either, but I think it's fun).


    Nah, nah... I am talking about the Wyrmling and Very Young green dragons with 5 or so class levels (or whatever) that you replace Tucker's Kobold's with when the party gets to higher levels... still using Tucker's Kobolds degree of skill in tactics...
    Yeah, my version is pretty insane using Tucker's tactics (you start at +5 attack for each creature that chooses to activate the feat getting an additional +1 per person using the feat and attacking the same person from the feat, and an additional +2 from Aid Another when attacking the same target). Dragons, which can meet the prerequisites easily, could own a entire party using much younger dragons than one would expect.

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    Hi everyone.

    For a long time now I’ve been lurking this forum, from which I’ve collected a sizeable amount of ideas.
    I had no plans of getting out of the shadows, but then I saw this thread, which is the most practical and interesting Fighter discussion I’ve seen so far.

    Okay. Given fixing the core Fighter was the initial incentive that drove me to embark on a journey for the creation of the most extensive set of house rules ever (as far as I am aware of) and given I’m convinced I have a valid solution for all the actual shortcomings of the core Fighter, I find it appropriate to step into the lights and share my solution.

    Now before one tries to figure out my solution, it’s important to understand that using the core rules as they are slam-shuts the door on any hope of salvation for a purely mundane character (mundane in terms of no supernatural or spell-like abilities) in a system where other characters bend or even break reality with unnatural powers. Therefore, one must improve the basic martial combat mechanics.

    I do not credit this fix purely to myself, as I’ve collected a lot my insights from others and more or less hijacked the most significant mechanical addendum that constitutes this fix. And still, I’ve been wrestling with myself for a very long time until I reached a satisfactory result.
    Nevertheless, I believe this fix actually does the job and does it well. Referring to the tier system, I’d say my fix is a solid tier 3 class.

    Before we continue, I’d like to point out that this fix folds the archetypes of the Fighter, Barbarian, Swashbuckler, Samurai and any other warrior that’s confined to the laws of physics into a single, highly customizable class – and there’s a good reason for that. They’re all sub-par and extremely limited in in-game versatility (with only the Fighter being somewhat versatile build-wise).


    Okay, let’s get down to business.


    In My House Rules (CLICK ME) there are several things that I believe to fix the core Fighter (in order of priority).
    1. My Warrior class; entry #6.
    2. Redefined Game Mechanics; entry #5.
    3. Weapon Groups; entry #4.
    4. Feats entry #2 (take whatever you feel like).


    Now here are the instructions about how to use my Warrior class without the need to entirely reinvent the game with my house rules:

    The class should be taken as is. It presents an extensive array of unique features which are useful on a high frequency basis in the following manners (and more):
    - Doesn’t trail in the action-economy competition.
    - Has high mobility.
    - Outclasses a Monk-Paladin gestalt in terms of survivability, recovery and overall lasting power.
    - Can use combat feats in a manner that no other class comes close.
    - Has a lot of skill-related options (making it also more than useful in out-of-combat situations).
    - Given the above, can serve as an effective defender.
    - Has unparalleled built-in weapons versatility.
    - Has only 3 relatively boring levels, in which it only gains a bonus feat – and even those can be made significant given the right choices.
    - Has build options which are unparalleled by all except non-spontaneous spellcasters.

    In the Redefined Game Mechanics spoiler, the relevant issues are:
    - AC
    - Armors, Shields and Helmets
    - Feint – Redefined (brings back Feint to the warriors’ ballpark)
    - Force Effects (critical)
    - Grapple
    - Multiple Attacks and Movement (critical)
    - Overrun – Redefined (just to finally make it a valid combat option)
    - Shield Another (quite essential)

    The Weapon Groups entry has several purposes:
    - Better balance between the different weapons (you'd probably want to disregard the rules (tables) regarding different attack-bonuses for different weapons).
    - Weapon-Proficiency acquisition that’s free of feat payment - including for exotic weapons.
    - Improved Weapon Focus and Specialization carry more punch. Weapon Supremacy is definitely much more significant.
    - Even more combat option.

    The Feats section (without getting too much into specifics) brings shields’ validity back to life and brings yet more options.


    Now I know what people might say: “some of your suggestions help other classes, not just warriors”.
    While I admit this to be true, the impact they’d have for warriors would significantly outshine any contribution they’d grant other classes.


    Note: In my house rules, Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge are condensed into a single feature. Anyone who finds this condensation undesired (once you figured out what my Warrior’s Combat Focus feature does and how it works) can simply rule that while Combat Focus is active, the Warrior gains the benefit of Improved Uncanny Dodge.


    I’ll be checking this thread in the next few days, just in case anyone has question regarding the above, so feel free to ask.
    Last edited by nonsi; 2010-06-30 at 09:22 AM.

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    Jota: thanks for those links. Someone mentioned the Tome Fighter somewhere before, and I had no idea what they were talking about. There's some really great stuff there, and it looks like a really powerful Fighter. But don't worry! That'll never be enough for us! I doubt there'll ever be a Fighter that pleases everyone...the real fun here is telling everyone what we want to see. Or using other people's ideas to make our own Fighter that does what We want.

    Eldan: The more I think about your feat tree idea, the more I like it. In fact, by making a branched feat tree with maybe 10-14 feats total, and a really good capstone feat at the end of each branch...maybe add some synergy between the capstone feats...you could make a really decent Fighter. Customization would basically depend on which tree you pick, and whether you finish every branch on your main tree, or take half of one tree and half of another. Dabbling in more than that would probably be unwise, since you wouldn't get many of the best feats, and they probably wouldn't be ones made to work together.

    Bergor Terraf: I think we all agree that the Fighter's niche is "fighting skill"...the problem is that "fighting" is such a broad term. Especially in D&D, where there are so many different kinds of combat. Anyway...I think that a Fighter should be able to surpass a ranger or scout's skill with a bow in combat, if that's where he chooses to focus his energy. The Fighter can have combat archery, the ranger can have archery, woodsmanship, and wild animals, and the scout can have archery, woodsmanship, and guerrilla tactics. That said, I also don't think we really need to work on archer-fighters much. Since they shouldn't be in the middle of the battlefield, there aren't quite as many tactical options with archery. Just stand back and shoot, and maybe have some sort of tactical effect on some of the arrows. I guess my point here is...i dunno...I guess Fighters should be good at archery, and maybe get some fun tricks, but shouldn't be encouraged to specialize too far in that direction because, as large-HD heavy-armor-capable characters, they have more potential to be useful in melee combat. So, moving on,,,"super feats". There's some good potential there, but I still think that Fighters would benefit a lot from a few unique class abilities. Unless you go as far as the feats used by the "Tome Fighter", some of which actually grant entirely new abilities at each upgrade. Even then, though, it would be nice for Fighters to have something all their own that no one else can do. Or...maybe you could have the Fighter's special ability be the ability to unlock the higher levels of the "super feats". Then you could have the upgrades be based on Fighter level, rather than BAB, like it is for the Tome Feats.

    nonsi: Thanks for joining us, and glad you found this discussion interesting/inspiring/whatever!

    nonsi and DracoDei: I'll read all of your stuff eventually, but that's quite a lot to get through...

    "aggro" seems to be one of the hardest problems to work through...probably because it's not part of D&D. Even the language we use comes from WoW, as far as i can tell. The only built-in system that looks like it was meant to keep people from ignoring melee characters is AoOs - and those don't do that good of a job on their own, since they're so easy to avoid. Anyhow...here are a few of my ideas on making it necessary for enemies to target the beefcakes. (some of these haven't been thought through completely, they're just what came up when I started thinking about this. Don't expect too much.)

    Bodyguarding - There have been several variations on this theme before, most granting shield or cover bonuses. what would be more useful would be if the fighter could absorb half or all of an ally's damage. That way, it simply wouldn't be worth attacking the Fighter's allies, since the damage wouldn't have its full effect. The problem here is that I can't fluff it so that it isn't magical...

    Also on the theme of Bodyguarding...how about the ability to "tackle" (bull rush) an ally as an immediate action, and take the blow that was meant for them. As you level, you could initiate the tackle from farther away, or maybe even work up to the point where your timing is such that you can cause a spellcaster to accidentally target you at the last second, instead of your ally.

    I like the idea of marking a target (maybe multiple targets at higher levels), and getting bonuses against that target if they don't focus on you. Most people have suggested flat bonuses to hit and damage against the target (i like the idea of an AoO on the mark every round, but you still have to be in range for that). I would suggest a bonus that increases every round, up to your level (or half of it, at least). Maybe half your class level to hit and damage, doubled every round, up to a number of rounds equal to half your class level. Didn't pay attention to that level 10 fighter for four rounds? Maaaaybe you'd better look into that. Unless he can get an AoO on you. Then maaaaaybe you'd better just leave. Balanced by a low number of marks (maybe one per iterative attack, max 4 at lvl16), and the fact that you can negate the bonus by throwing your shoe at the Fighter (maybe not? should it require a sincere attack?). No bonus given if the target cannot make any sort of attack that will reach the Fighter....or maybe you only get the bonus if the foe attacks one of your allies (I think i like that one, but there still needs to be a caveat somewhere, so a burrowing fighter with tremorsense can't hide underground for 10 turns while his cleric buddies sit in their Sanctuaries, and then just pop out and eat all the enemies).

    A quick idea on making feats that don't benefit non-Fighters: give your Fighters a class ability or two, then make feats that use that as a prerequisite. Although, if you're going to do that, you might as well just make all of your other feats into class abilities. Unless you make a lot of them, I guess. Then they would become customization options.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by itastelikelove View Post
    [...]So, moving on,,,"super feats". There's some good potential there, but I still think that Fighters would benefit a lot from a few unique class abilities. Unless you go as far as the feats used by the "Tome Fighter", some of which actually grant entirely new abilities at each upgrade. Even then, though, it would be nice for Fighters to have something all their own that no one else can do. Or...maybe you could have the Fighter's special ability be the ability to unlock the higher levels of the "super feats". Then you could have the upgrades be based on Fighter level, rather than BAB, like it is for the Tome Feats.
    That was my intention. "Super Feats" was just a way to visualize what it would be like. They would look, feel, smell like feats, but they would be abilities that can only be obtained by fighters. I should really find a name for it.

    Some of them would be upgraded version of fighter feats, showing that fighter are better in this department than non-fighter. Others would be all new abilities (BTW, I should try to read that tome fighter...). I had tought about making them scale with BAB, but fighter level (has you suggested) seems more appropriate.

    Here are some exemples of abilities I came up while trying to fall asleep last night. (Numbers are just exemples, they will probably need to be changed)

    Hard to pass : You take great effort in making life difficult for ennemies trying to pass by you. Squares you threaten are treated as difficult terrain.

    At fighter level 5, each time they step into one of your threatenned squares, they take 1d4 damage.

    At fighter level 10, you may take a 5 ft step during an enemy's turn. This is a free action that counts has one of your attacks of opportunities for that round.

    At level 15, damage increases to 2d4.


    Blocker : You use your shield not only to protect yourself, but your allies too. At the beginning of you turn, you may choose an ally adjacent to you. Until the beginning of your next turn, they gain a shield bonus equal to yours.

    At fighter level 5, if that ally is the target of a melee attack, you can use a immediate action to be considered the target instead.

    At fighter level 10, all allies adjacent to you gain a shield bonus equal to yours

    At fighter level 15, if an ally adjacent to you is the target of an attack (melee, ranged or magical), you can use a immediate action to be considered the target instead.


    Unbalancing strike : When fighting with a shield, you can use it to create oppenings. When an ennemy misses you with a melee attack but would have it your unshielded AC, you can use an attack of opportunity to make him unbalanced. They loose their Dex bonus to AC and take a -5 penalty against trip attemps. It lasts until the next attack or until the beginning of their next turn, wichever happens first.

    At fighter level 5, the penalties last until the beginning of their next turn.

    At fighter level 10, you can make a free attack against the target when using unbalancing strike.

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    Default Re: The Fighter Manifesto - Please Contribute!

    I'm working on feat trees, currently. My first one would be the Bodyguard feat tree, and I need some more ideas for effects this could have. So far, I have:

    -Share the AC bonus from your shield with an adjacent ally.
    -Give cover to said ally.
    -Change place with said ally as an immediate action 1/turn.
    -By changing places, take an attack for the ally.
    -Make an AoO against an enemy attacking said ally.

    What else should such a bodyguard be able to do?

    I'm aiming at around 8 feats for every such tree currently, just about enough that a dedicated non-fighter could take most of one tree as well. Other trees I'm thinking about would be a weapon-mastery tree, an übercharger tree and perhaps trees for the various battle maneuvers (feint, shield bash, disarm, trip and so on).
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    Default Re: The Fighter Manifesto - Please Contribute!

    Bergor Terraf:

    Yeah, those are starting to look like good reasons to be a Fighter. And yeah, I think you would really like the Tome Fighter/Feats. I'll admit, I was a lot less impressed by the idea of scaling feats before I read that. For example, having TWF give you all of the advanced versions makes it less of a slap in the face to TWFighters, but it's still not that impressive. They gave all that just for taking the feat, and the upgrades give you shield bonuses, extra AoOs, and Feinting as a Swift action.

    So yeah, I like where that's going. More paperwork than I'd like to do...but I would gladly steal them from you!

    (oh, and beware...they changed a lot more than just the Fighter class. They basically upgraded the whole combat system to be more friendly to martial characters. click on a link to 'the Edge' to see what they did with AoOs, grapple, bull rush, etc.)
    Last edited by itastelikelove; 2010-04-25 at 02:27 PM.

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    Default Re: The Fighter Manifesto - Please Contribute!

    Had some free time, so I whipped up a homebrew fighter. Uses the Pathfinder Fighter as a base, with a modified version of the Trailblazer Fighter's Punishing Strike. Also includes some relevant, scaling skill bonuses, better saves, a reroll mechanic, something nice at level ten, and something that makes a standard attack at least a little more worthwhile.

    http://docs.google.com/View?id=dfd7zxz_74fdxxvmf8

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    Default Re: The Fighter Manifesto - Please Contribute!

    Eldan:

    What I have in my head looks like this:

    ..........A
    ......../....\
    .....B........C
    ..../...\...../...\
    ..D....E..F....G
    ...|.....|....|.....|
    ..H....I...J....K
    ...|.....|....|.....|
    ..L....M...N...O

    15 feats in all. That's enough for a Fighter to master all of them and still have a few left over, while a human of any other class could still get two of the ultimate feats. L, M, N, and O should all be really extraordinary, but they should also all work well with each other, so that a Fighter who masters the tree should always be better at what he does than a non-Fighter who mastered half of the tree.

    As for suggestions...
    A: grant shield bonus to ally. As a move action, take ally's space and move ally into adjacent space.

    B: grant cover against all attacks

    D: grant 20% concealment
    H: grant 50% concealment, and you count as solid to block line of sight/effect
    L: Bodyguard two adjacent allies

    E: take ally's place as immediate action, move ally to any adjacent square.
    I: When taking ally's place, a spell targeted on ally is now targeted on you.
    M: move up to your speed and take ally's place as an immediate action

    C: AoO against anyone who attacks your ally (maybe give Combat Reflexes as bonus)

    F: Add Fighter level to hit and damage on AoOs.
    J: AoO against anyone who enters range while bodyguarding
    N: AoOs can stun (or maybe just nauseate, or even just interrupt the current action)

    G: throw weapon as preemptive AoO against foe attacking ally from range
    K: charge (base speed only) as preemptive AoO against foe attacking ally from range
    O: Reflect spell that targets ally to any target within range

    That separates your Bodyguard tree into Defense and Retribution, then subdivides those into Protection and Absorption, and Melee and Ranged. One tree, two trunks, four branches, with each trunk about equal to one of the trees you were thinking about.

    So, a level 20 Fighter could move and attack on his turn, then run back in order to take a hit meant for an ally, protect and cover/conceal a second ally as wall, and then when the enemy casters get started, he can charge or throw and try to stun if they're in range, or reflect their spell or cover allies or break line of effect if they aren't. A non-Fighter could only do half of that. Maybe top that off with Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit, Quick Draw, and Throw Anything.

    That's how I see a strong feat tree working. And there's some feat ideas for you, if you would rather put it together differently. Whaddaya think?
    Last edited by itastelikelove; 2010-04-25 at 03:55 PM.

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    Default Re: The Fighter Manifesto - Please Contribute!

    While I think that branching out isn't a bad idea, I'd also like to see capstone feats: feats really high up in the tree, with six or seven prerequisities, that no one except a fighter will ever reach without serious specializing. Your way, everyone can reach all of them with some investment. What I was thinking off was more along hte lines of.

    ...A
    ...B
    ./...\
    C....D
    E....F
    G....H
    .\.../
    ...I...

    With I being something seriously bad-ass and special. Perhaps not that symetric, and with some more branches, but the trees should be long, otherwise, it's not really for the fighter. Fighters who specialize should see considerable returns.

    Oh, perhaps a way to shield allies from area effects?
    Last edited by Eldan; 2010-04-25 at 04:13 PM.
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    Default Re: The Fighter Manifesto - Please Contribute!

    Quote Originally Posted by itastelikelove View Post
    So yeah, I like where that's going. More paperwork than I'd like to do...but I would gladly steal them from you!
    Thanks. I'll probably try to do my own take on the fighter someday. Until then, i'll continue to share ideas in this thread to help others and brainstrom at the same time.

    Speaking of ideas, I always liked Knaight idea of shift (found here). Basicly, you trade attack bonus higher than your opponent AC for different effects. Thats a way to make the static bonus the fighter always seems to get more dynamic.


    @ Eldan

    You could always merge your idea of capstone feats with itastelikelove idea of branching feat. Using the branching feat diagram, just add "P" that needs both "L" and "M" and "Q" that needs both "M" and "O".
    Last edited by Bergor Terraf; 2010-04-25 at 04:41 PM.

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    Default Re: The Fighter Manifesto - Please Contribute!

    Alright, I see what you're saying. And I do kind of like the idea of the supersecret ultimate feat of power, at the very top of the tree.

    Do you want non-Fighters to be able to reach that peak feat, though? As you have it (9 feats), I think only a Fighter or Warblade could reach it before epic levels. 7 feats by level + 1 for humans = 8 total, and most classes with bonus feats don't allow you much choice. (obviously, other feat trees would be friendlier to non-fighters, depending on the root feat, but I'm using your shield-ally feat as an example). I set mine up so that anyone who wants to spend every single one of their feats on the same tree could get one capstone feat, and humans could get two, but only Fighters could go beyond that.

    Cover grants a bonus on Reflex saves. i'm sure we could find a way to protect prople from non-Reflex AoEs, too.

    P: requires L and M. Initiate this ability as an immediate action. Taking any action cancels this effect. You are flat-footed, lose your Dex bonus to AC, and automatically fail all Reflex saves. The allies you are bodyguarding cannot be targeted by any attack, spell, or effect, and are immune to any spell or effect with an area that includes their squares, including ongoing effects. They may act normally, but instantly lose the benefit of this ability if they move away from you. The effect ends immediately when you die.

    Q: Requires N and O. When you stun an opponent with an AoO, you may immediately make an additional attack at the same bonus, which has a chance to paralyze the opponent. If that attack succeeds, you may immediately make a coup-de-grace against the same opponent.

    There...now mine are as long as yours.

    (Edit: hah - my idea got ninja'd. good job)
    Last edited by itastelikelove; 2010-04-25 at 04:53 PM.

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    Default Re: The Fighter Manifesto - Please Contribute!

    Quote Originally Posted by Apalala View Post
    Had some free time, so I whipped up a homebrew fighter. Uses the Pathfinder Fighter as a base, with a modified version of the Trailblazer Fighter's Punishing Strike. Also includes some relevant, scaling skill bonuses, better saves, a reroll mechanic, something nice at level ten, and something that makes a standard attack at least a little more worthwhile.

    http://docs.google.com/View?id=dfd7zxz_74fdxxvmf8
    There are some decent ideas in there, but on the whole, it's not much better than the ordinary Pathfinder Fighter. Which is to say, people can still run around you and ignore you, and you don't have any good ways to deal with spellcasters. the Punishing strikes help a bit, but they aren't enough on their own.

    On the other hand, we seem to be doing a lot of conceptual work on extending the usefulness of feats. Variations of some of the things we've been talking about could make use of the class features you like, and make them much more useful, or even add abilities to make up for whatever is still missing.

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