equality

[Geiger Counter]

I have the tomb of battle, and I'm banning prepared magic and wildshape.
Is there anything else I should do in the name of balance?

[Gnaeus]

Banning prepared magic means what exactly? No Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist?

If so, banning wildshape is harsh, as it only exists on the Wildshape Ranger, and they aren't overpowered.

If not, What exactly do you mean?

[Kobold-Bard]

Banning a whole type of magic is harsh. It's certain spells that are broken, not the way they're prepared.

Trade Wild Shape for the Shapeshift Druid (PHB2) and that's good to go too.

[Boci]

Banning a whole type of magic is harsh. It's certain spells that are broken, not the way they're prepared.

Unless there is a full list somewhere already made, that is a lot of effort in comprison to just banning several classes.

@ the OP: Have you considered banning core entierly (except for dips) and just using PHII, ToB, ToM, MoI and Dungeonscape?

[Kobold-Bard]

Unless there is a full list somewhere already made, that is a lot of effort in comprison to just banning several classes.

@ the OP: Have you considered banning core entierly (except for dips) and just using PHII, ToB, ToM, MoI and Dungeonscape?

Ban the Persist Spell Feat, if you're really down on DMM then ban that instead. Cleric is sorted.

Divine Scrolls are at the DM's discretion, as with all magic items. Don't let your players have all the extremely specific items they want (divine scrolls of Fly etc.). Archivist is better.

Not every Wizard is the uber-Batman. Most will pick the same spells most day, varying a couple every now and again. The Wizard itself isn't inherently powerful, it's the spell that make it silly. Might be more effort, but blanket banning a group of classes just because is silly to me.

Though your non-core only idea intrigues me, and will be investigated.

[Gametime]

On the other hand, all the prepared casters have spontaneous analogues. They can still outmuscle anyone they really need to, but the limited spell selection evens the field a bit.

[Geiger Counter]

Divine characters cast spontaneously.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...ineCasters.htm
Plus Casters have spell books like wizards do however spells like these do not use up spell slots and they take 10 times as long to cast and typically can't be used during combat.

What book is the wildshape ranger in? My only problem with wildshape is druids are already full casters with a free mount/meatsheild.

[Divide by Zero]

Blanket bans like that seem like a really bad idea to me. If your players are experienced enough to optimize, ask them not to take it too far. If they aren't experienced enough, they're not going to do any of the really high-power stuff. Druid is the only exception I can think of that's easy to break out of the box (Complete guide to druids: take Natural Spell at level 6.), but using the Shapeshift variant fixes that mostly.

[TheYoungKing]

Divine characters cast spontaneously.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...ineCasters.htm
Plus Casters have spell books like wizards do however spells like these do not use up spell slots and they take 10 times as long to cast and typically can't be used during combat.

..... what?

You do realize CoDzilla is going to be worse right?

I mean, its just going to be CoCzilla but still.

[Gnaeus]

What book is the wildshape ranger in? My only problem with wildshape is druids are already full casters with a free mount/meatsheild.

It is in Unearthed Arcana. The ranger gives up his weapon style feats for wildshape as a Druid, small and medium animal forms only. It is mostly used to enter PRCs, like Master of Many Forms.

[Greenish]

The Wizard itself isn't inherently powerful, it's the spell that make it silly.

That's like saying that the sea isn't inherently wet, it's the water in it that makes it wet.

Furthermore, prepared casting is stronger* than spontaneous casting in most cases**, since you get to choose strong but situational spells (often from huge lists) every day, without getting stuck with them.



*"Stronger" in the sense of "more likely to be capable of answering the challenges you are presented".

**Assuming a decree of optimization, which is what seems to be going on here, seeing as the OP is concerned about limiting casters' power.

[Geiger Counter]

..... what?

You do realize CoDzilla is going to be worse right?

I mean, its just going to be CoCzilla but still.

so do you think I should only give the spell book to the sorcerer or is there additional spells to ban from being used in the spell book. The reason I want to make all castors spontaneous is because I think it will speed up games play and simplify things for everyone in addition to the equality thing.

[Gnaeus]

What books do you have available? I mean I see where you are going, but wouldn't it be easier to just ban Cleric, Druid and Wizard and use Sorcerer, Favored Soul and Spirit Shaman with mild modifications?

so do you think I should only give the spell book to the sorcerer or is there additional spells to ban from being used in the spell book. The reason I want to make all castors spontaneous is because I think it will speed up games play and simplify things for everyone in addition to the equality thing.

I think what he is alluding to is that there are a lot of long term buffs which will only be cast from spell book. I mean if I were a 3rd level druid under this system I would cast barkskin, resist elements, 2 Primal spells and Heart of Air before opening any door. The sorcerer always casts resist elements, Mage armor etc, the cleric always casts Shield other, resist elements, etc... And they don't use any spell slots for all these long term buffs, and that is before level 5. Hardly a good result for simplicity or power reasons.

[Geiger Counter]

Favored Soul and Spirit Shaman with mild modifications?

Don't got those and I've already went over my book budget.

[Geiger Counter]

I think what he is alluding to is that there are a lot of long term buffs which will only be cast from spell book. I mean if I were a 3rd level druid under this system I would cast barkskin, resist elements, 2 Primal spells and Heart of Air before opening any door. The sorcerer always casts resist elements, Mage armor etc, the cleric always casts Shield other, resist elements, etc... And they don't use any spell slots for all these long term buffs, and that is before level 5. Hardly a good result for simplicity or power reasons.

Wouldn't the fact that I said that casting time from a spell book spell takes 10 times as long fix that?

[Gnaeus]

Wouldn't the fact that I said that casting time from a spell book spell takes 10 times as long fix that?

A spell normally takes 1 round. 10 times that is 1 minute. Barkskin, Resist Elements and others last 10 minutes per level. So if I cast Barkskin and Resist Elements I spend 2 minutes and have 2 free spells that last 30 minutes. That is probably enough to clear 2 rooms in a dungeon, and then I take 2 minutes and cast them again. Mage Armor and Shield Other last 1 hour per level. Other spells last all day.

[Geiger Counter]

What I basically want to do is create a system of invocations (UA) without actually creating custom spells, advice?

[Boci]

Though your non-core only idea intrigues me, and will be investigated.

In one game I ran, the "core" (i.e. the most common classes) was ToB for melee, Dungeonscape for skill monkeys and ToM + the duskblade (using a recharge mechanics for the shadowcaster) for people who delved into wierd lore or were naturally talented with the supernatural. I planned on using a fix for the truenamer, but then decided to check if anyone actually wanted to play one first. Since no-one did I never bothered.
From time to time there would be adventurers reported with strange abilities and the party would sometime sinteract with them. As they grew more powerful they began to explore more and found other lands were these "wierd" powers were more common, such as the mind warriors to the south (psychic warriors) and grafters (MoI) across the great water.

[Gnaeus]

How much experience do you and your players have, and how much do they optimize? My basic advice would be to ban Fighter, Monk, Paladin and Natural Spell, drop the casting from spellbook idea, and introduce invocations slowly as the game progresses cherry-picking ones that won't tear up balance. Either keep prepared casters as they are in the PHB or change to spontaneous if they have been causing a lot of problems.

Especially if you drop the tier 5s, a low optimization game without natural spell may not have balance problems. The TOB classes may even look stronger than the casters (because they are easier to build/play).

[Yuki Akuma]

Tome of Battle.

Tome!

A tome is a book. A tomb is a crypt!

*weeps in a corner*

[CockroachTeaParty]

If you're going to ban clerics, druids, and other divine casters, I might suggest keeping Healers around, even as NPCs. Otherwise, there's no way to make healing potions and other items necessary to remove nasty stuff like disease and curses.

[Boci]

Tome of Battle.

Tome!

A tome is a book. A tomb is a crypt!

*weeps in a corner*

I almost did not get a copy because of this mistake. I rang up the bookstore and asked if they had the D&D book tomb of battle in stock. They told me no. Luckily I went in and checked anyway.

[Pluto]

Classes like the Fighter, Crusader, Paladin, Hexblade and the rest of the 2-skill combat-focused classes could probably use a boost. The easiest way woluld be more skill points and expanded skills lists, so they aren't pushed to sit on their hands for the majority of the game.

All the half-caster classes (Paladin, Ranger, Spellthief, Hexblade, etc.) could probably do with Bard-rate spell progression, full CL and at least mid-level spell effects.