Psion gish build

[Vallum]

Hello, its me again!

My instincts are kicking in again that the DM might want to kill off my character... So, I've buckled down, and I'm now trying to build a psion that specs in combat. I know their is phychic warrior... But I would rather want to try using a psion for this, see how it rolls.

I was thinking a big ol' two-handed weapon for this, (cause they're awesome and the group needs another melee guy, otherwise I'd make a batman). I'm thinking of shocktrooper/leap attack fun with this as well.

So, my build so far is

Ranger 1/Psion 6/Illithid Slayer 2
feats
1h: Improved toughness
1: Power attack
1R: track
3: Improved bullrush
6: Leap attack
9: Shocktrooper

I still have 2 psion feats, I'm thinking psi crystal affinity to soak damage for me, (d4's hurt...), but deep impact looks tasty as well...

suggestions/comments?

[Lycanthromancer]

Spoiler

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Hello, its me again!

My instincts are kicking in again that the DM might want to kill off my character... So, I've buckled down, and I'm now trying to build a psion that specs in combat. I know their is phychic warrior... But I would rather want to try using a psion for this, see how it rolls.

I was thinking a big ol' two-handed weapon for this, (cause they're awesome and the group needs another melee guy, otherwise I'd make a batman). I'm thinking of shocktrooper/leap attack fun with this as well.

So, my build so far is

Ranger 1/Psion 6/Illithid Slayer 2
feats
1h: Improved toughness
1: Power attack
1R: track
3: Improved bullrush
6: Leap attack
9: Shocktrooper

I still have 2 psion feats, I'm thinking psi crystal affinity to soak damage for me, (d4's hurt...), but deep impact looks tasty as well...

suggestions/comments?

I'll likely get ninja'd, but... Yay, no ninjas!

You won't have enough hp to survive, given d4s, even with a large Con. Go Psicrystal Affinity and take vigor and share pain for ML x 5 temporary hp and half damage (with your psicrystal soaking up 8 points of damage per hit via hardness).

Also, Linked Power, for assisting with buffs.

Use metamorphosis to get some high-Str and high-Con forms, and kick ass and take names that way (war troll is always nice, though you may wish to look into some other interesting combat forms, such as the cloaker, choker (with Metamorphic Transfer), roper, and hydra.

Get the suppression ability on whatever melee weapon you choose (reach is your friend, remember, and glaive/armor spike combos are awesome), and get some suitable feats for your psicrystal (see: Flyby Attack).

Speaking of psicrystals, they make absolutely insanely awesome combat partners, using metamorphosis, since they keep all of their psicrystal granted abilities (flight, intelligence, natural armor buffs, etc). They get medium BAB, and share your saves and skill points (see: Aid Another). Get one. Make it count. I can go in-depth for you, if you like.

Also, I'd heartily consider avoiding taking ranger and giving yourself strongheart halfling as a base race, using the feat for Track instead of Improved Toughness (given vigor's rather amazing ability to keep you healthy).

I can help further if you like.

[Vallum]

I'll likely get ninja'd, but... Yay, no ninjas!

You won't have enough hp to survive, given d4s, even with a large Con. Go Psicrystal Affinity and take vigor and share pain for ML x 5 temporary hp and half damage (with your psicrystal soaking up 8 points of damage per hit via hardness).

Also, Linked Power, for assisting with buffs.

Use metamorphosis to get some high-Str and high-Con forms, and kick ass and take names that way (war troll is always nice, though you may wish to look into some other interesting combat forms, such as the cloaker, choker (with Metamorphic Transfer), roper, and hydra.

Get the suppression ability on whatever melee weapon you choose (reach is your friend, remember, and glaive/armor spike combos are awesome), and get some suitable feats for your psicrystal (see: Flyby Attack).

Speaking of psicrystals, they make absolutely insanely awesome combat partners, using metamorphosis, since they keep all of their psicrystal granted abilities (flight, intelligence, natural armor buffs, etc). They get medium BAB, and share your saves and skill points (see: Aid Another). Get one. Make it count. I can go in-depth for you, if you like.

Also, I'd heartily consider avoiding taking ranger and giving yourself strongheart halfling as a base race, using the feat for Track instead of Improved Toughness (given vigor's rather amazing ability to keep you healthy).

I can help further if you like.

Again, the more the better ^__^

Ranger is only in the build to help me get into slayer asap and start raising my BAB. Without ranger, I'd have to wait until level 8 to even fathom of getting into slayer.

So.. Is a two-hander, (greatsword, greataxe, est.), build unlikely then, even with the psi crystal/vigor combo?

Also, in the campaign I'm in, improved toughness works differently. for every level starting when I obtain the feet, I gain 3 hp, (thus taking it at level 1), and I have a 20 CON, (4d6, add 1's and 2's, (e.g. 6, 6, 6, 2 = 20), 4 3's = 18, 4 4's = 18, 4 5's = 20, and 4 6's = 24). It how I can even supplement the very idea of being in the thick of battle with the barbarian and only other, aside from the monk I'm playing, tanking, (cause the other ranger doesn't do her job, and the barbarian can barley hold his own from him going with two-weapon fighting and not using ToB x_x).

[Prime32]

and the barbarian can barley hold his own from him going with two-weapon fighting and not using ToB x_x

Is the book banned or does he just not want to use it?

If the latter, go Psion 6/Warblade 1/Slayer 2 (the de-fluffed SRD version of the class is slightly more powerful)

If you're taking a ranger level, you should consider the wildshape ranger variant.


Greatsword all the way.

[Vallum]

Is the book banned or does he just not want to use it?

If the latter, go Psion 6/Warblade 1/Slayer 2 (the de-fluffed SRD version of the class is slightly more powerful)

If you're taking a ranger level, you should consider the wildshape ranger variant.


Greatsword all the way.

Nah, he's just new to the game and doesn't want to be flustered with new mechanics.

I'm only taking that one level in ranger to get me not only track, but also the +1 bab and enough skill points to cover the prerequisites for the slayer class.

btw, the SRD version look exactly like the Illithid version, just allowing you to choose which ever enemy you want except mind flayer/Illithid, (which was going to be my RPing focus anyways). It just seem you might as well take that to get all aberrations instead of just Illithids

[Optimystik]

Wilder is a much better choice if you want gishiness + power. 3/4 BAB, d6 instead of d4, Tumble AND Autohypnosis as class skills, Elude Touch and even Surging Euphoria. Use the Educated Wilder ACF to bolster your powers known, and go to town.

Also, light armor and shield proficiency out of the box.

[Samb]

Wilder is a much better choice if you want gishiness + power. 3/4 BAB, d6 instead of d4, Tumble AND Autohypnosis as class skills, Elude Touch and even Surging Euphoria. Use the Educated Wilder ACF to bolster your powers known, and go to town.

Also, light armor and shield proficiency out of the box.

Just to add to what Opti said, Wilder far better for Gish than psion, a dip into psywar or fighter will give you an extra feat but also qualify you for sanctified mind PrC.

I personally think slayer isn't all that great. You lose one ML and bonus feats for what exactly? Full BAB and favored enemy? The capstone is nice but is it really worth it? I don't think so. If all you wanted was 16 BAB by the end of 20 levels then there are better ways to get that.

Slayer is even inferior to sanctified mind when it comes to killing mind flayers. SM can shrug off the effects of stun and daze (which is why it is great for wilders) while slayers just make the illithid nausous. SM also gets smite aberration which is better or at least even with favored enemy.

If you can't get your head around the fact that wilders are great Gish (and they are) then try the easier to manage Ardent. Better armor, and ACF that make DMs cry.

[Sophismata]

Slayer gets uber non-detection at 6th, and uber-mindblank at 9th.

Capstone is crappy, yes, but the others are not. Sanctified mind is also excellent.

If partial BAB is in effect:

Martial Rogue / Ardent 3 / Ranger / Slayer 9 / Sanctified Mind 6

Gives you 20th manifesting (with practiced manifester), 9th powers and 19 BAB.

You will only have 3 mantles, though, so make 'em count.

[Vallum]

mmmm... I really don't want to be a wilder though. If I was, I'd be having the character in a different direction, totally different feel as well. Ardents... Again, it doesn't have that feel to the character that I like so much...

But sanctified mind AND slayer sounds like something I can sink my teeth into.

so how about this:

Ranger 1/ Fighter 1/ Psion 4/ Slayer 9/ Sanctified mind 5

18 BAB
ML 16

Though I really liked

Ranger 1/ Psion 6/ Slayer 9/ Sanctified mind 4

17 BAB
ML 17

----------------

But... Idk, just... Blarg.... This character WAS originally a psychic warrior... But I think the lack of PP scared me a bit, and Psions have SO MUCH.... Idk, again, this is my first time rolling a psionic character, and I want to play it as much as I could, ('d rather play a full manifester psion if I could, but the party needs a tank.... thus a gish compromise).
Worse comes to worse, I'll just play an arcane gish, (I know those inside and out). But... I really would like to be a psion

[Lycanthromancer]

BAB doesn't matter nearly as much if you're using full attacks with natural weapons, and getting more hits with a manufactured weapon doesn't matter *quite* as much when you have an astronomical Strength score from taking a war troll or something, and a metamorphosis'd psicrystal to back you up. Invest an Expanded Knowledge feat or research into strength of my enemy for an additional +8 to your Strength score (and that of your psicrystal's), which is a nice, hefty +4 to attack and damage for a mere 3 pp.

Heck, I can make a full-psion build that can outdo most standard builds all by itself, using just its psicrystal. Adding a buffed psion/slayer into the mix just makes it more groovy.

Psions are awesome at self-buffing, and buffing their psicrystals. Keep in mind that each buff can do quite a lot, especially when used in tandem with other buffs. Cherry-pick the powers from the lists you want using the resources at your disposal and you can make one surprisingly badass melee combatant.

Quickie build forthcoming...

[edit] Also, you want access to metamorphosis AS. SOON. AS. POSSIBLE. This means you won't want to enter the class until level 8. Forget about your BAB; it's not very important, what with having a psicrystal there for support.

[Lycanthromancer]

Okay, psionic powers will do more for you than most melee types can dream of.

My personal suggestion is something akin to the following:

Spoiler

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{table]Level|Powers|Feats
1.|Vigor, inertial armor, entangling ectoplasm,|Up the Walls (sub for Linked Power at level 7), Improved Toughness, Psicrystal Affinity
2.|Crystal shard or energy ray, hammer|-
3.|Share pain, concealing amorpha|Psicrystal Containment
4.|Animal affinity or chameleon, *strength of my enemy|-
5.|Energy retort, hustle|Extend Power
6.|Time hop, touchsight|Track
7.|Metamorphosis, psychic reformation, then sub for energy adaptation|-
8.|-|-
9.|Intellect fortress or *schism, psi. dim. door|Metamorphic Transfer
10.|*Greater concealing amorpha, *claws of the vampire or *hostile empathic transfer|-
11.|*Second chance, *oak body|-
12.|Psionic contingency|Craft Universal Item (make a psy. skin of proteus, then sub for Psionic Meditation)
13.|Psionic disintegrate, temporal acceleration|-
14.|Fission|-
15.|Planar champion (CPsi), psionic moment of prescience|Expanded Knowledge: dispelling buffer
16.|Fusion|-
17.|Bend reality, psionic iron body|-
18.|Greater metamorphosis|Quicken Power
19.|Timeless body, Whatever you want at this point|-
20.|Ditto|-
[/table]
*Researched at the lowest possible level from other lists

Use planar champion and fusion on your psicrystal to give it some awesometastic abilities and a bunch of extra hp.

You might want a melee machine in the standard sense, but powers are very...err...powerful, and can augment you greatly. Make sure you keep Linked Power, Extend Power, and Metamorphic Transfer, whatever you do. LP and MT are insanely good feats, and EP will help you conserve PP.

[Vallum]

Spoiler

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Okay, psionic powers will do more for you than most melee types can dream of.

My personal suggestion is something akin to the following:

Spoiler

Show

{table]Level|Powers|Feats
1.|Vigor, inertial armor, entangling ectoplasm,|Up the Walls (sub for Linked Power at level 7), Improved Toughness, Psicrystal Affinity
2.|Crystal shard or energy ray, hammer|-
3.|Share pain, concealing amorpha|Psicrystal Containment
4.|Animal affinity or chameleon, *strength of my enemy|-
5.|Energy retort, hustle|Extend Power
6.|Time hop, touchsight|Track
7.|Metamorphosis, psychic reformation, then sub for energy adaptation|-
8.|-|-
9.|Intellect fortress or *schism, psi. dim. door|Metamorphic Transfer
10.|*Greater concealing amorpha, *claws of the vampire or *hostile empathic transfer|-
11.|*Second chance, *oak body|-
12.|Psionic contingency|Craft Universal Item (make a psy. skin of proteus, then sub for Psionic Meditation)
13.|Psionic disintegrate, temporal acceleration|-
14.|Fission|-
15.|Planar champion (CPsi), psionic moment of prescience|Expanded Knowledge: dispelling buffer
16.|Fusion|-
17.|Bend reality, psionic iron body|-
18.|Greater metamorphosis|Quicken Power
19.|Timeless body, Whatever you want at this point|-
20.|Ditto|-
[/table]
*Researched at the lowest possible level from other lists

Use planar champion and fusion on your psicrystal to give it some awesometastic abilities and a bunch of extra hp.

You might want a melee machine in the standard sense, but powers are very...err...powerful, and can augment you greatly. Make sure you keep Linked Power, Extend Power, and Metamorphic Transfer, whatever you do. LP and MT are insanely good feats, and EP will help you conserve PP.

o.o
wow, neato man!
oh, right, stats might be helpful
I have
18
18
18
20
17
12

-----------------------

[edit] Also, do you have any suggestions for what forms to take with metamorphosis as I level? Never used alter self/polymorph cheese before, and metamorphosis sounds like that, but better with the Metamorphic Transfer

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Metamorphosis has a HD limit based on your manifester level, but not your character level. Definitely get Practiced Manifester, probably with your Psion 1 bonus feat, and definitely use Overchannel with Metamorphosis since you heal as though you rested for a night upon changing form.

Starting at level 9 you can take the form of an 11-headed Hydra, which is particularly good with Robilar's Gambit (PH2) since you'd get an 11-bite AoO every time you're attacked. At level 10 you can take the form of a War Troll (MM3) and be a monstrously powerful melee combatant. With Metamorphic Transfer you could change into a Beholder and use all of its eye rays, since they're all listed as a single supernatural ability. I'd probably use the feat Assume Supernatural Ability from Savage Species over Metamorphic Transfer despite its drawback since it doesn't have any limit to how often it can be used.

How can you be unfamiliar with Alter Self/Polymorph yet claim to know arcane gishes inside and out?

[Lycanthromancer]

o.o
wow, neato man!
oh, right, stats might be helpful
I have
18
18
18
20
17
12

I'd kill to have those stats. As to WHO I'd kill...well...we won't go there.

Well, other than 20 Int, the rest don't really matter, so long as you don't put the 12 into Wisdom (for prereqs) or Charisma (for save DCs vs your supernatural abilities). Having a low Strength won't hurt you too much, since you won't really be in your natural form...like...ever, though dumping Strength will suck if you ever get thrown into a situation where you can't use metamorphosis (which will pretty much just be in dead magic areas, once you have a psychoactive skin of proteus crafted). Same goes for Dex, though if you do get caught with your pants skin down, you'll want a good Dex for Initiative and AC...

You'll likely want it in something similar to this order: Int > Con > Cha > Wis > Str = Dex, and which you want will depend entirely on whether you'd rather be quick or strong when not metamorphosis'd (though if there are any feats that require Str or Dex as prereqs that you want, I'd suggest using that to make your decision as to which you want to dump.

[edit] Also, do you have any suggestions for what forms to take with metamorphosis as I level? Never used alter self/polymorph cheese before, and metamorphosis sounds like that, but better with the Metamorphic Transfer

My favorites are, depending on function, beholder (antimagic cone!), pixie (flight + improved invisibility!), shimmerling (from MM 3, though you have to subtract the swarm template; they make awesome stealth-forms, due to Fine size), roper (ranged Str damage!), choker (extra actions!), cloaker [(Ex) hold person!), cryo/pyro/hydra (breath weapons + size + Str + lots of primary bite attacks as a standard action = win!), dire weasel [(Ex) Con drain, whee!], puppeteer (but only if you get your hands claws on psionic charm), and rust monster/crysmal (utility and major oxidation action against metal and crystal creatures!).

There are a ton of others, but those are awesome to be starting off with. You may want to consider fleshraker dinosaur, though, considering it's one of the most offensively powerful forms in the entire game, but only if you're desperate and willing to get pimp-slapped by your DM.

[RagnaroksChosen]

with a 20 int and a gish type character almost want to sugest dipping 3 levels in swashbuckler.

[Lycanthromancer]

Metamorphosis has a HD limit based on your manifester level, but not your character level. Definitely get Practiced Manifester, probably with your Psion 1 bonus feat, and definitely use Overchannel with Metamorphosis since you heal as though you rested for a night upon changing form.

Overchannel + metamorphosis isn't a bad idea at all, though I've found that psionic characters tend to be so feat-intensive that I try not to take Practiced Manifester until and unless I'm missing 3 or more manifester levels (since you can buy ML boosters).

I've also found that judicious use of lower level forms can be at least as vicious as higher level forms, so Overchannel may not even be that useful, if done right. Not that Overchannel isn't an awesome feat, 'cuz it is. It's just that it's something that may not really be needed.

*Shrug*

Starting at level 9 you can take the form of an 11-headed Hydra, which is particularly good with Robilar's Gambit (PH2) since you'd get an 11-bite AoO every time you're attacked. At level 10 you can take the form of a War Troll (MM3) and be a monstrously powerful melee combatant. With Metamorphic Transfer you could change into a Beholder and use all of its eye rays, since they're all listed as a single supernatural ability. I'd probably use the feat Assume Supernatural Ability from Savage Species over Metamorphic Transfer despite its drawback since it doesn't have any limit to how often it can be used.

Unfortunately, you have to choose a single supernatural ability from a single form using Assume Supernatural Ability (so, say, ASA [choker, quickness]), so unless you plan on spending most of your time in a single form, or using a single Su ability all the time, Metamorphic Transfer is by far more versatile and useful.

How can you be unfamiliar with Alter Self/Polymorph yet claim to know arcane gishes inside and out?

It is rather strange, but perhaps he generally takes a different tack when gishing it up? Like maybe using duskblade or Tenser's transformation? It does seem as though he can manage to get his hands on some pretty darned good sets of stats.

Also, make sure whatever melee (and ranged) weaponry you get is of a type that will help you overcome DR. Nab a cold iron weapon, one nonmagical adamantine weapon (see if you can't get a pearl of power and a few castings of greater magic weapon), and a few doses of silversheen so you can war troll it up and overcome DR. You can also see about tossing on a few magical properties to change your weapons damage type and to overcome substance-based DR, though this does get expensive and you're better off just dealing so much damage in a single hit that your enemies tend to flat-out die, DR or not.

Remember that your psicrystal may not gain hp, saves, or skill points normally, but it does get construct hit dice (and therefore a medium base attack bonus, ability score bonuses, and feats), so choose its feats wisely (perhaps give it those combat feats you were wanting above, once it's routinely got a Strength high enough for Power Attack).

As for a few more forms, check out the manticore (ranged attacks and flight!), human (note that you get that racial bonus feat, which you get to choose manually every time you get it), girallon (especially with Power Attack, what with having 4 arms), ettercaps and monstrous spiders (webs), destrachan (that sound blast really does a number on obstacles in your way), behir (look at all those special attacks), mi-mi-mimics! (because being able to manifest while hiding as an object - without even a Hide check - is great, plus look at its pseudopod and its autograppling abilities), and the annis hag (makes a good default combat form in the beginning, whenever you need to use hands for something).

[Prime32]

Take a look at the Big Guy is With Me build. The Improved Psicrystal feat gives your psicrystal an extra HD every time you take it.

[Vallum]

Metamorphisis and my psicrystal duking it out for my cowardly party members.... I like this very much indeed. I like how I can with this idea have my cake and eat it as well!

But the link Prime32 gave me is now confusing me with how the psicrystal now works x_x



note about my experience with arcane gish: Simple. I never abused the alter self/polymorph cheese. DM, at the time when I played gishes allot, didn't let me look at his monster manual and, thus, couldn't get an idea of what to change into. No spell compendium ether. So, I used other strategies. I used enlarge person, bulls strength, est, THEN finish it with tenser's transformation. Oh, using arcane strike to back up my power attacks, using sorcerer as my spell battery, (I don't play combat gishes as batman), spellsword to channel touch spells, enervation cheese, ect.
So yeah, just grabbing a greatsword and smashing face with arcane magic to power me to smash face and have a few tricks up my sleeves just in case

[Prime32]

But the link Prime32 gave me is now confusing me with how the psicrystal now works x_x

Unlike familiars, psicrystals get actual Construct HD. This means they have average BAB and get feats.

[Vallum]

Unlike familiars, psicrystals get actual Construct HD. This means they have average BAB and get feats.

So what will the HD do for the lil' guy if I just metamorphosis him into something better? Just for feats then?