[3.5] Increasing Monster Hit Dice

[Scorpions__]

So I was just statting out an advanced Cildabrin (Lords of Madness) and wanted to bring it up by three challenge ratings to CR 10. The Monster Manual claims that if I add 12HD to the aberration, that should put it there.

So it's gained three ability score increases, a size increase (more CR?), and and five feats. Also, it's BAB is now epic, since my creation has 23HD.

Is this all accurate? Balanced?




DM[F]R

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I can't precisely remember the rules for increasing the ability scores outside of size increases(and for the aspects of demon lords in the Fiendish Codex), but I do remember that monsters with 21+ HD still count as going along the same progression. So a 30 HD Outsider would have a BAB of +30, a construct would have a +20 and a fey would have a +15. Same goes with saves.

[Runestar]

Racial HD alone never trigger epic progression rules.

Take the creature advancement guidelines with a pinch of salt though, they aren't always accurate. The size increase doesn't always result in a cr increase (something about medium going to large for the improved reach or something)?

[awa]

if it did some relatively low cr giant insects would be epic

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, only class levels use epic base attack and base save progressions. Racial HD always use their own BAB and base save progressions even past the 20th HD. As just one example of this, a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon has 41 HD and a +41 BAB, whereas a level 41 Fighter using the epic progression would have a +31 BAB. A 23 HD Aberration gets the standard 3/4 BAB, good Will, and poor Fort and Reflex saves for all 23 of those. Note that once a monster hits 21 HD it can take epic feats, though I doubt any would make it overpowering.

A size increase is typically a +1 CR. That means a 19-HD Cildabrin is CR 9, whereas a 23-HD Cildabrin should be CR 11. You could make it 19 HD and give it the elite array (15,14,13,12,10,8) to make it CR 10 by-the-book, or make it 22 HD and it would be counted as CR 10 since fractions round down but that would be a bit underhanded.

[Scorpions__]

Thanks,

What if I give it both HD and class levels that bring it over 20HD combined, but not on their own? Epic progressions for the class levels? Do I have to keep in mind where it gained more hit dice from growing, and where it gained more from leveling?

Anything else I should know about adding hit dice? This Cildabrin starts with 11HD, then gains 12, so, it gets a feat at 12, 15, 18, and 21HD, and an ability increase at 12, 16, and 20HD right? One of those feats can be epic? Is that fair? I plan to put this against the party in my spoiler.





DM[F]R

[Scorpions__]

Oh, and what about caster level? No matter how many hit dice I add it stays equal to the creature's HD?





DM[F]R

[Oslecamo]

Oh, and what about caster level? No matter how many hit dice I add it stays equal to the creature's HD?

CL for SLAs is equal to HD as a rule of thumb, but actual spellcasting can only be raised by taking levels in the apropriate class.

[jiriku]

Yeah, totally balanced, totally fair. I'm serious. I use advanced monsters a lot. You're seeing the increased hp, base attack, saves, and stats, but what you're missing is that (a) advanced monsters typically have substandard AC for their CR, and (b) advanced monsters don't get new powers or attack modes, so their modes of attack are more appropriate to weaker monsters. For example, take almost any CR 4-6 monster, advanced it to maximum HD, and compare it to a CR-appropriate outsider like a demon. Notice how the outsider can do cooler stuff.

[AslanCross]

if it did some relatively low cr giant insects would be epic

Point, but vermin are mindless and don't get feats anyway.

@OP: By RAW, anything with over 20 HD counts as epic and can take epic feats. That's why some dragons can take epic feats relatively early. (See Draconomicon.)

Unless of course it's mindless, like a giant beetle or greater stone golem.

[Doug Lampert]

Yeah, totally balanced, totally fair. I'm serious. I use advanced monsters a lot. You're seeing the increased hp, base attack, saves, and stats, but what you're missing is that (a) advanced monsters typically have substandard AC for their CR, and (b) advanced monsters don't get new powers or attack modes, so their modes of attack are more appropriate to weaker monsters. For example, take almost any CR 4-6 monster, advanced it to maximum HD, and compare it to a CR-appropriate outsider like a demon. Notice how the outsider can do cooler stuff.

I'm inclined to agree. Monster advancement isn't that strong and typically comes out about right as long as you don't optimize your feat choises.

It's CLASS advancement that is totally screwed up.

Elite ability array +1 to CR (and that's also about right).

Elite ability array + 2 cleric levels giving HP, feats, domains, spells and the ability to use spell completion items, AND the biggie: giving gear equal to that of an NPC of your new CR's level. That's also +1 to CR BtB.

And if you believe that is correct then I've got a real-estate deal for you on tropical beachfront property in North Dakota.

But if your monster is Cha based then you're probably better off with Bard levels. Not that it matters, if I'm optimizing this thing then I'm never planning to actually USE any class ability except maybe proficiencies other than the ability to use magic healing sticks out of combat, I'm just pumping the character with an elite array and 2HD and a massive gear upgrade for only 1 CR.

DougL

[Scorpions__]

You make a good point, I guess it is fair and balanced.

Okay, here is my beastie, a cildabrin (Lords of Madness), advanced 12HD:

Greater Cildabrin
Advanced Cildabrin
Usually NE Huge Aberration
Init: +2; Senses Listen +0, Spot +11; Darkvision 60ft. Tremorsense 60ft.
--------------------------------------
AC 20 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +10 Natural), touch 12, flat-footed 18 *Dodge, mobility
hp 303 (23HD, 23d8+207)
Fort +16 Ref +9 Will +13
--------------------------------------
Speed 60ft. (12 squares), climb 30ft.
Melee 2 pincers +23 (2d6+5) and
Melee tail stinger +21 (3d6+11 plus poison)
Space 15ft.; Reach 15ft.
Base Atk +17; Grp +31
Atk Options constrict 1d8+11, improved grab, posion, spell-like abilities, great cleave, spring attack
Spell-like Abilities (CL 23rd): cha-based
3/day - darkness, silence (DC 16), spike stones (DC 16)
--------------------------------------
Abilities Str 32, Dex 15, Con 28, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 13
Feats Dodge, Mobility, Multiattack, Spring Attack, Improved Natural Attack (Claw), Improved Natural Attack (Stinger), Ability Focus (Poison), Cleave, Great Cleave
Skills Climb +27, Jump +38, Move Silently +20, Spot + 11
Treasure 50% coins 50% goods 50% items
Advancement 24 - 33HD (Huge)
--------------------------------------
Poison(Ex): Injury, Fortitude, DC 32, initial and secondary damage 1d6 strength. The save is constitution based.

Do you usually get a second save for the secondary effect of poison? If you succeed on the first?

Is the speed wrong?





DM[F]R

[nyjastul69]

I'm not sure about the speed. The MM guidelines don't mention a speed increase for a size increase alone. The otyugh example has its speed remain the same, although it has moved up a size category. The beastie your increasing looks like it should get a bonus for a larger size. I'm not sure that would be RAW.

The secondary poison effect is subject to a save and is completely independent of the first save.

[Doug Lampert]

I'm not sure about the speed. The MM guidelines don't mention a speed increase for a size increase alone. The otyugh example has its speed remain the same, although it has moved up a size category. The beastie your increasing looks like it should get a bonus for a larger size. I'm not sure that would be RAW.

The secondary poison effect is subject to a save and is completely independent of the first save.

BtB you get no boost to speed for size or added HD. That's part of why monster HD suck and it takes several to give +1 to CR. Monster HD don't give you any of the stuff a higher CR monster should have, just more of what a lower CR monster should have.

I don't have Lords of Madness so I can't check this creature, but IIRC Save DCs for monster poisons are 10+HD/2+Con Modifier so the size increase and the HD increase will both improve the save DC.