Incantations

[Geiger Counter]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/ma...cantations.htm
What are some good ones to have in the campaign?

[Gralamin]

None of them, because they are broken.

[Gan The Grey]

None of them, because they are broken.

Uh, you are definitely going to have to explain this.

[Touchy]

Uh, you are definitely going to have to explain this.

I want an explanation as well, you can't just "say" something without advice and not expect people will ask why.

[Yukitsu]

It's like epic casting at level 1.

[TheLogman]

Incantations are basically low-level epic spellcasting, but everyone can use them.

The ability to reduce the cost and spellchecks means that one could do anything practically.

Incantations could be cool IF the DM designs them. But even then sometimes the drawbacks and such are so silly, having a Magic Item would be cooler and more useful.

[Kalirren]

Oh man!

Why did I never see this?!

D&D 3.5, Kalevala edition, here I come!

[Gralamin]

It's like epic casting at level 1.

This is why. I thought it was obvious

[Kalirren]

This is why. I thought it was obvious

Exactly! It's a way of running a low-magic campaign without nixing magic! Just ban all spellcasting classes but allow the development/improvisation of situationally appropriate incantations.

Ingenious!

Edit: to answer the OP, here's a few examples of things I just thought up off the top of my head.

Ritualized Trial by Combat

Travellers' Chant of Safe Passage (read: No Random Encounters Pls)

Wheel of Fortune (read: Insert Plot Hook Here)

Contest of Riddles

Play Chess With Death

[Gan The Grey]

(rolls eyes)

Incantations are a great way for players to accomplish unique and interesting things outside the realm of published magic. Yes, like just about anything in D&D, optimizers can turn the system on its head and break it. However, as custom rituals, much like homebrew spells must ultimately be approved by the DM, I see no problem including Incantations as a regular part of your setting.

Yes, I'm invoking Rule 0 on this, because if the DM follows the advice for creating custom Incantations, they shouldn't have any problems.

[Sophismata]

IIRC Epic Casting doesn't work, because (amongst other things) the DC's are too high. Thus, you need massive mitigation factors, some of which are silly (300d6 backlash), others obtainable but still patently ridiculous (20 Solars giving you a spell slot).

I don't really see that with Incantations.

[Olo Demonsbane]

IIRC Epic Casting doesn't work, because (amongst other things) the DC's are too high. Thus, you need massive mitigation factors, some of which are silly (300d6 backlash), others obtainable but still patently ridiculous (20 Solars giving you a spell slot).

I don't really see that with Incantations.

Ummmm....

I'm going to let someone else explain this one.

[Yukitsu]

Ummmm....

I'm going to let someone else explain this one.

Would saying "item familiars" in all caps, with bold, italics and underline suffice?

Or we could talk about cloistered cleric with divine guidance into exemplar here.

[Sophismata]

Would saying "item familiars" in all caps, with bold, italics and underline suffice?

Or we could talk about cloistered cleric with divine guidance into exemplar here.

You misunderstand me. I wouldn't call it 'broken', because the system does work for the purpose it was designed for. (You can theoretically use it in an ordinary game without much trouble.)

Epic spellcasting doesn't. (It's binary - either optimise it so it works, or don't use it because it doesn't.)

[Optimystik]

Aren't they the spiritual predecessor to 4e's Rituals? It seems to me that such a mechanic - universal utility magic - is needed in any system that wants to keep the classes on semi-equal footing.

[Set]

Incantations are a great way to take spells that might change the flavor of the game world out-of-combat and shoot them in the head.

Don't like the notion that the existence of raise dead and ressurection spells could prevent a country from ever changing it's leadership, or make an assassins guild pretty much pointless for killing anyone who you'd pay money to kill (since his allies can just pay money to get him back)? Change the raise dead spell to one that can only raise someone who has been dead for 1 round / level, making it still handy for the party Cleric to have prepared (or, more likely, on a scroll), but not always feasible for use on King Whathisname, who fell off his horse during a hunt and died 10 minutes before his men could get the body to the Cleric.

Reintroduce long-term ressurection as an Incantation that requires the stars to be right, some rare materials and the presence of 1000 people who want the person resurrected badly enough to donate 1 Con pt. of blood while chanting the incantation, and it becomes a plot hook. The king is dead, we need material X. And then we need someone to guard the casting of the incantation, as King Whatshisname had enemies, and they might have snuck some people into the pool of 'helpful townspeople' who intend to pollute the blood sacrifice with poison, ruining the spell! (Or causing the king to shudder, sit up, and promptly fall over dead of poisoning, which would be even funnier, from a bad-guy perspective...)

Don't want to even *think* about how teleportation around (or between) kingdom(s) would tweak economic assumptions (and shortchange the need for adventures involving caravans)? Dimension Door remains a spell. Real long-range teleportation requires a special Incantation, and a special structure, and nobody but 'the ancients' knew how to build them, and the only ones left that are known are heavily guarded by various kingdoms and / or flawed, due to age and damage and modern casters not being entirely sure how they work, making it unsafe to use them for bulk shipments or even the sending of profoundly expensive materials. Adventurers could discover a new buried 'gate' in a far away land, and their founding kingdom (or their rivals, from evil Kingdom X) could find out about it from their messages back and start sending 'colonists' through to claim the new lands for the kingdom(s), re-igniting an age-old war in a distant land, far from either home kingdom.

Permanant Polymorph Any Object an issue? Simulacrum an issue? Gate an issue? Wish or Miracle an issue? Incantations. Only when the stars are right, only when the materials the GM controls the availability of are indeed available, only when the appropriate incantation is discovered (also under GM control), any other limitations as desired, during the crafting of the Incantation.

It's a powerful tool to reign in potentially campaign affecting uses of high level magic, and allow a GM to make a fantasy world that is not affected by the presence of high-level Wizards running around creating trade goods, establishing permanant teleporation items / fields to eliminate overland or overseas trade, creating armies of allies via PaO or Simulacrum, or Gating in Efreeti or Wishing up Thought Bottles and Candles of Invocation, etc., etc.

[Kaiyanwang]

Aren't they the spiritual predecessor to 4e's Rituals? It seems to me that such a mechanic - universal utility magic - is needed in any system that wants to keep the classes on semi-equal footing.

Yes they are. They add a lot both in low and in high magic setting. They are one of the 78136498132684 reasons of why UA is a really good book.

You can use them:

1) To rewrite problematic spells. Say, 1 standard action teleport is too much for the setting? Ban it, and rewrite it as the ritual

2) To invent new powers for monsters. Say, want a ritual that makes nixies able to steal the shadow of an evildoer, something like a curse.

3) To allow non-casters to perform unusual things. Any skill can be used, so you could, say, use a teleport for monks that is fluffed as a long (and long to prepare physically) jump.

[taltamir]

You misunderstand me. I wouldn't call it 'broken', because the system does work for the purpose it was designed for. (You can theoretically use it in an ordinary game without much trouble.)

Epic spellcasting doesn't. (It's binary - either optimise it so it works, or don't use it because it doesn't.)

Sophismata has a point. I am not familiar with incantations... but the biggest problem with epic casting is that it is utterly useless if you DON'T use extreme mitigation...

duplicating a level 5 spell requires half a million GP and 20 thousand XP to research, and an unreachable DC (without extreme cheese) to cast... and you only have one epic slot a day (without cheese)...

the only possible way to use it is if you use lots and lots and lots of mitigation... the thing is, you can, for just a fraction more mitigation, reduce it to DC0 and get it for free, in one day... thus you win DnD.

The question is, are incantation as much of an epic fail as epic casting is?

PS. epic casting is more targeted at players... they choose spells and the DM has "the final say"... This is described as a tool for the DM to give limited access to spells...
aka, "you can cast plane shift... one day in the year... when given the blessing of a powerful fay". So basically its a systemic tool for the DM to wing it... which sounds utterly and totally pointless to me. You don't need any stupid system of mitigations and seeds if you are going to do that... just literally pull things out of your behind...
DM: "you step through the circle and you are magically teleported to a pocket dimension"
PC: "what spell is that? I never read it in any supplument"
DM: "thats because I made it up"
PC: "Can I learn it"
DM: "No"

See, its simple... the only thing this seems to do is give a DM a set of rules, math and PITA to follow when he is doing exactly the same thing.
They explicitly state that those are supposed to be used as one shot plot devices that the DM introduces to prevent their daily use.. aka, a DM introduces one and then its gone.

the kicker is that they only have 3 examples... so basically its a big ass page telling DMs to "wing it"... gee, thanks for telling me to invent my own mechanics and gameplay system...

[Yuki Akuma]

A DM making up a spell and telling his PCs "no, you can't learn it" is... pretty bad for verisimilitude.

Okay, if it was a Wizard spell and the PC is a Druid... hey, sure. But if you're in a dungeon owned by a Wizard and you're playing a Wizard? That's just wrong.

[Radiun]

Okay, if it was a Wizard spell and the PC is a Druid... hey, sure. But if you're in a dungeon owned by a Wizard and you're playing a Wizard? That's just wrong.

It's even worse for a druid in a druid's dungeon. They both know every spell.

[Yora]

Looking for additional stuff for Incantations, I found this new pdf for pathfinder.

7,50€ for 40 pages seems a bit steep, but the reviews I've found were all really good, so I decided to give it a try and hope it's worth it.
I let you know what I think of it when I've read it all.

[Geiger Counter]

Permanant Polymorph Any Object an issue? Simulacrum an issue? Gate an issue? Wish or Miracle an issue?

Anyone want to make incantations for these?

[Starbuck_II]

Unlike Epic rules, it says you can't have DCs lower than 20.

Also: Every incantation you create should have at least one component that’s difficult for the caster to deal with, such as an XP cost, an expensive material component, or a significant backlash component

Also, they sadly usually require more than one skill check (minimum 2 successes).

But still they are relatively easy to abuse: other than fact, that they have to have backlash (doesn't just mean damage, means a drawback), EXp, or material costs.

[Yora]

Regarding: "Incantations from the Other Side: Spirit Magic"

It's nice, but really not worth 7,50€. It's three ideas how to fluff incantations as rituals that call on spirits, but has only 19 very generic incantations.

[Rappy]

1) To rewrite problematic spells. Say, 1 standard action teleport is too much for the setting? Ban it, and rewrite it as the ritual

This is pretty much how d20 Modern used incantations. Any spell over level 5 is automatically either an incantation or non-existent unless created as an incantation.

Sadly, I have no experience with incantations in Dungeons and Dragons rather than d20 Modern, so I don't have that much to contribute.

[Yora]

Here's the d20 Modern SRD. Incantations are under "Arcana".