Use of Persisted Spell

[VestigeArcanist]

I am coming up with a character concept, a Cleric using Persist spell in conjunction with feats to lower the cost for using it. It reeks of cheese.

Here is the build so far
Human Cleric

Feats
1. Extend Spell
B1. Persist Spell
3. Divine Metamagic

This gives me one free persisted spell once per day at Level Three, providewith an 18 charisma. This can be accomplished at Level One if the planning domain is picked up. I probably will not, since I wish to be a cleric of Lytris, or some other similar god for RP reasons. If someone can point out another god of fate or destiny with the planning domain (not sure if that even makes sense) that would be awesome.

For the use of persist spell I am at a loss. A duration of 24 hours (or 48 hours if you extend as well) should not be taken lightly. It's effectively a magical item you do not need to wear, so should be used in a way that wouldn't duplicate an item.

I am thinking of the delay death spell, a level three spell in Races of Destiny, which will prevent my character from dying of hit point loss during the duration of the spell, making him virtually immortal. What other spells (especially of a low level) would do well?

[Bayar]

Detect Magic. You can sense everything with a maical aura around you. For the whole day.

And yes, even if people will argue and whine "That does not work waa waa waa invisibility makes you unseen thus you cannot use detect magic to detect an invisible creature !!!", you CAN detect the aura of the invisibility spell cast upon them, thus might know that there is someone invisible in the room and try to pinpoint them if they dont move.

[Morithias]

If you take the planning domain, you get the extend spell for free. Plus the best personal spell of all time: Time Stop.

Persist Time Stop for a full 24 hours of free actions. You could loot a whole dragon's cave and be miles away before it realizes it's gone!

[Optimystik]

Detect Magic. You can sense everything with a maical aura around you. For the whole day.

Agreed, this can lift a lot of headache from you and your team.

Persistent Owl's Wisdom is also useful - you can prepare additional spells/day (simply cast POW at the end of the day and sleep - 8 hours later, you still have the bonus.) Your spells will also pack more punch due to supernormal save DCs.

And yes, even if people will argue and whine "That does not work waa waa waa invisibility makes you unseen thus you cannot use detect magic to detect an invisible creature !!!", you CAN detect the aura of the invisibility spell cast upon them, thus might know that there is someone invisible in the room and try to pinpoint them if they dont move.

While you can indeed sense the magic auras around creatures (and pinpoint them if they stand still long enough), don't forget they still have 50% concealment even when you know what square they're in.

[Glimbur]

Time Stop has a duration of instantaneous, it's only an apparent duration of 1d4 rounds.

Of course, Divine Power and/or Righteous Might are fun to persist. That's how you out-fighter the fighter. But at lower levels? Resistance isn't bad until you get a resistance item. Similarly, Magic Weapon helps at very low levels. Entropic Shield is situational but handy. Aid and the animal attribute spells can be useful.

Then there's Spell Compendium. Lesser Vigor is awesome.

Some of this advice is dependent on your DM agreeing that Range: Touch is a fixed range. This is... not always agreed upon.

[senrath]

I'd agree with using Lesser Vigor if possible.

[Morithias]

Time Stop has a duration of instantaneous, it's only an apparent duration of 1d4 rounds.

Of course, Divine Power and/or Righteous Might are fun to persist. That's how you out-fighter the fighter. But at lower levels? Resistance isn't bad until you get a resistance item. Similarly, Magic Weapon helps at very low levels. Entropic Shield is situational but handy. Aid and the animal attribute spells can be useful.

Then there's Spell Compendium. Lesser Vigor is awesome.

Some of this advice is dependent on your DM agreeing that Range: Touch is a fixed range. This is... not always agreed upon.

So it gives you 24 hours of apparent time instead. -.- No where RAW does it say it's instantaneous, the listed duration is "1d4 rounds apparent time, see text"

If it was actually meant to be an instantaneous spell, it would be listed as "instantaneous, see text"

[Chen]

Firstly an extended/persisted spell does not last 48 hours. They do not stack. Either you get the extended version (Base time x2) or the 24 hour version.

Has there been any errata/clarification on where Range: Touch is intended to work with Persisted spells? Last time I played a cleric we considered them not to work. At which point things like Divine Power and Righteous are the main uses. Delay death is also a touch range I believe which is why I never used it as a persistable spell. Seems a tad broken too though I guess hit point damage isn't always the biggest concern.

Remember to protect yourself from dispels. They can be a real pain in the ass for Persisted spells. Fighting demons/devils is always a pain because of this.

[senrath]

I don't think there's been any clarification on the matter, so it's DM discretion. Personally, I'd allow it on a case by case basis, depending on the general power level of the campaign. But that's just me.

[Ernir]

Eh, Persisted Lesser Vigor would affect just one subject, for a duration of 24 hours. So one party member gains Fast Healing. And that is if touch is ruled to be "fixed" range.

Mass Lesser Vigor, on the other hand - unambiguously 20' range, multiple subjects. Won't get it until level 5, but still. Infinihealing for the whole family! \o/

At level 3, I'd just do Divine Favor. +2 attack/damage, which stacks with a masterwork weapon.

[Morithias]

I would probably argue that you can persist touch spells...if they only affect a single target.

[sreservoir]

Agreed, this can lift a lot of headache from you and your team.

Persistent Owl's Wisdom is also useful - you can prepare additional spells/day (simply cast POW at the end of the day and sleep - 8 hours later, you still have the bonus.) Your spells will also pack more punch due to supernormal save DCs.

also persistent eagle's splendor. not quite as useful, but nice if you have other DMMs.

[Deth Muncher]

On a related note, it pisses DMs off when you have a Permanent True Sight.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Firstly an extended/persisted spell does not last 48 hours. They do not stack. Either you get the extended version (Base time x2) or the 24 hour version.

Incorrect. Metamagic is applied in the order desired by the caster, and always has cumulative effect. The only exception to this is Empower + Maximize.

[jiriku]

At level 1-2, persisting protection from evil is a pretty solid buff if you expect to face evil opponents. +2 save and +2 AC is a solid improvement of your defenses, and immunity to mind-affecting spells and the natural attacks of summoned creatures only helps more.

Frankly, though, persist is kind of a waste of time until you get 3rd level spells. At level 3, good options for melee include include ice axe or wraithstrike (acquired through anyspell if you have the spell domain). A more party support-oriented character might choose mass lesser vigor or magic circle against evil.

[Optimystik]

immunity to mind-affecting spells and the natural attacks of summoned creatures only helps more.

Nitpick - it grants immunity to ongoing compulsions and charms. It is not Mind Blank at level 1.

[Chen]

Incorrect. Metamagic is applied in the order desired by the caster, and always has cumulative effect. The only exception to this is Empower + Maximize.

I cannot access the SRD from work, but I'm fairly sure the reasoning as to why it does not work is because extend doubles the BASE duration of the spell. Persist just makes the duration 24 hours, not the BASE duration. Hence they do not work together.

[TheMadLinguist]

On a related note, it pisses DMs off when you have a Permanent True Sight.

So the next rogue you see UMDs a scroll of invisible obscuring mist, and suddenly you're blind.

So it gives you 24 hours of apparent time instead. -.- No where RAW does it say it's instantaneous, the listed duration is "1d4 rounds apparent time, see text"

If it was actually meant to be an instantaneous spell, it would be listed as "instantaneous, see text"

Explained in the FAQ. There's also the interpretation that you'd get d4 rounds of actions over a 24 hour period of real time, which is somewhat less useful.

[Randalor]

Extend Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal. A spell with a duration of concentration, instantaneous, or permanent is not affected by this feat. An extended spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.

From the SRD. Persist, as far as I can tell, sets the duration to 24 hours, then this would double it. So it would work if you interpret it as setting the normal to 24 hours.

[Lord Denyuar]

I like picking up those domains that grant you turning against other types of creatures (Fire/Water/Plant, etc.). They are specifically different set of turn that turn undead and can still be sacrificed for Divine Metamagic. Taking the feat Extra Turns, adds 4 to each of your turn types. Level 1 cleric of Obi-haid with two flaws and domains of Fire and Plant and +2 Charisma, receive 9 Turn attempts for each type of turn for a grand total of 27 to use with DMM. More than a couple of spells you can persist at level 1. I am looking foward to persisting Produce Flame in a campaign.

[dextercorvia]

I like picking up those domains that grant you turning against other types of creatures (Fire/Water/Plant, etc.). They are specifically different set of turn that turn undead and can still be sacrificed for Divine Metamagic. Taking the feat Extra Turns, adds 4 to each of your turn types. Level 1 cleric of Obi-haid with two flaws and domains of Fire and Plant and +2 Charisma, receive 9 Turn attempts for each type of turn for a grand total of 27 to use with DMM. More than a couple of spells you can persist at level 1. I am looking foward to persisting Produce Flame in a campaign.

I don't think it works that way.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...Clarifications

[Ernir]

I like picking up those domains that grant you turning against other types of creatures (Fire/Water/Plant, etc.). They are specifically different set of turn that turn undead and can still be sacrificed for Divine Metamagic.

DMM specifically asks for Turn Undead, not any turning at all.

As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to spells that you know.

Emphasis mine.

[Lord Denyuar]

Aww, shucks, never actually played with errata at all. Always played RAW in all campaigns save for dm changes in rules esp since I am normally always DM (but we never optimized,). Oh well.

[Chen]

From the SRD. Persist, as far as I can tell, sets the duration to 24 hours, then this would double it. So it would work if you interpret it as setting the normal to 24 hours.

Ok it was the word normal I was looking for, not base duration. It does depend on how your interpret normal I guess, but the spell's normal duration is never 24 hours IMO. Its normal duration is the one in the spell listing.

[tyckspoon]

Ok it was the word normal I was looking for, not base duration. It does depend on how your interpret normal I guess, but the spell's normal duration is never 24 hours IMO. Its normal duration is the one in the spell listing.

Unless you use Persistent Spell on it, which makes it 24 hours. Metamagic changes what's normal for the spell, that's the whole point.

[Godskook]

Aww, shucks, never actually played with errata at all. Always played RAW in all campaigns save for dm changes in rules esp since I am normally always DM (but we never optimized,). Oh well.

RAW includes errata.

I think you mean something like Rules as Originally Printed, so RAOP?

And that's probably worse than RAW.

[KurtKatze]

Persistent Owl's Wisdom is also useful - you can prepare additional spells/day (simply cast POW at the end of the day and sleep - 8 hours later, you still have the bonus.)

Why wold that work? In the spell description PHB states that OW lik Fox Cunning etc. doesn't grant any bonus spells. Why should that fact change because you sleep?

If you would give a source for this i'd be grateful because i could use fox cunning for my mage that way.

[Mauther]

Mass Lesser Vigor, on the other hand - unambiguously 20' range, multiple subjects. Won't get it until level 5, but still. Infinihealing for the whole family! \o/

Or you could just dip to Dragon Shaman for the same effect. And for the Persisted Time Stop, I'd probably rule that you extend the spell for 24 hours, but are stuck in a stasis where no time actually passes, creating a paradox that either freezes the caster in time or causes him to implode. Persist and Time Stop are already cheezy, no reason to combine the two cheezes.

[Mauther]

Why wold that work? In the spell description PHB states that OW lik Fox Cunning etc. doesn't grant any bonus spells. Why should that fact change because you sleep?

If you would give a source for this i'd be grateful because i could use fox cunning for my mage that way.

Its usually duducted from the effect of wearing an enhancement item. But I think the RAW supports you. The spell doesn't grant bonus spells whether you persist, extend persist or make permanent with wish/miracle.

[TheMadLinguist]

RAW includes errata.

I think you mean something like Rules as Originally Printed, so RAOP?

And that's probably worse than RAW.

Can I play a vigilante in your campaign? Err... quote nesting doesn't go. You know what I mean.